The game is fantastic! , but

[Krougal]

10 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I think that's how it does work. Or did you mean 2 total source blocks touching the air block? So the lake could reclaim the corner of a field if you remove it? I'm not sure what the downside of 2 total would be. Must have been a downside, or I'd have thought that's how it would work.

Do you think player-placed source blocks are necessary, or even a good idea? Presumably you could still do it in creative, but in survival, you would have to adapt to what the world gives you.

It currently doesn't. You can make a real mess out of bodies of water by placing and removing blocks.

I don't know what TOBG (maybe it is code for Minecraft, I am not participating in the he who must not be named game) is, but Minecraft 2 sourceblocks will create a new sourceblock in a gap between them. The behavior can still be a little erratic there, which is why mods like "pretty beaches" were useful if you cared about keeping your coastlines nice.

 

I think it is a necessity unless the ability to dig a well is added for general water supply and other arrangements can be made for farming. As it is right now, the only real practical solution for farming is a grid of water blocks surrounded by farmland. It's too limiting.

[Thorfinn]

Just checked, since I had 1.20 pre7 running. It took a bit because I happened to be paused on High rift night, and had to evade some face-suckers and twangers to get a spare moment.

I remembered it right. It fixes the water if there are 3 orthogonal source  blocks, but not if there are only 2.

It's not that you have to be able to create a water source block to farm, but rather that you have to create a water block. Those can be different things. They are not at the moment, I don't think, but they could be.

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Vratislav]

48 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I think that's how it does work. Or did you mean 2 total source blocks touching the air block? So the lake could reclaim the corner of a field if you remove it?

Not sure if it works. I had to place every water block manually when filling removed soil block at the lake, also I was making some artificial 3-block wide channel and to ensure that there is no flowing water, I had to set all blocks as source blocks using bucket. 

The exact mechanic from TOBG is (if I recall well) two adjacent blocks at the same level, regardless on the block at the bottom or above, so the lake corners are filled, but line of source block is not expanding to adjacent line, air pockets at sides of walls can occur, mineshafts will not flood entirely when connected to underground lake, and so on. I suppose it may be fine tuned with some rules making source blocks less expandable, but I haven't thing this in detail.

48 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Do you think player-placed source blocks are necessary, or even a good idea?

When you do some terraforming around a base, like ditches around castle, connecting nearby lakes or creating artificial ponds, then some method of placing water bodies should be possible in survival.

But we may make it more limited and natural. The one Idea is suppose that there is underground water level that is equal to the level of the nearest surface water body. Under this level, placing source block should be easy as today (in real world water would usually appear after while). On higher locations, placing water would be much more limited, like increase the effort to make them (like breaking full barrel or spill 16 buckets) and limit the water sources into bodies surrounded by nonleaking blocks. For irrigation above local water level, windmill powered Archimedes screws could be used - like in the Netherlands where they used them for the opposite . 

Edited October 28 by Vratislav

[DejFidOFF]

Everything changes in 1.20. 

Try to go out in the night without armor.

Bronze armor to go deep to the caves is not enaught (because new enemies)

And so on.. 

[Thorfinn]

2 hours ago, Vratislav said:

Not sure if it works. I had to place every water block manually when filling removed soil block at the lake, also I was making some artificial 3-block wide channel and to ensure that there is no flowing water, I had to set all blocks as source blocks using bucket. 

Weird. I placed about 8 or so dirt in a line in 1.20-p7, and they all refilled. It's only a problem if you displace at least 2 rows wide, which, admittedly, most farms are. Because then there are none that have 3 adjacent source blocks. I'm guessing the reason to go with 3 rather than 2 was there was some kind of a MC exploit they were trying to avoid, but since I've never played MC, I have no idea what exploits there were.

 

2 hours ago, Vratislav said:

When you do some terraforming around a base, like ditches around castle, connecting nearby lakes or creating artificial ponds, then some method of placing water bodies should be possible in survival.

OK, maybe. Instead of creating a source block, though, I think it would be better if ponds above the water table were filled via pumps, like the Archimedes screw attached to a windmill. With source blocks being able to be moved, you can make all kinds of absurd things like 1-block millponds hovering in mid-air. Dwarf Fortress has no need of player-created source blocks. Nor do Timberborn or Going Medieval, the former being a great water simulator.

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

2 hours ago, DejFidOFF said:

Try to go out in the night without armor.

Fun, amirite? It can still be done, but you are probably going to need healing along on anything more than about Medium Rift Activity. With Low, you can usually avoid enough that you can heal up through food, Medium, depends on whether you try to do things near caves or rifts. I've been able to do an Apocalyptic with only a few poultices when I was sticking somewhere far from sources of baddies.

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

I am on 1.20P7 as well and that has not been my experience. I have had to fiddle around a lot to fix holes in the water I made.

 

Now using a pump to move water, that would be cool. Especially if we could build aqueducts and cisterns. Maybe even collect rainwater too.

Those are the kind of things that would make it okay to not be able to make source blocks, even if it means I have to give up using it as a portable elevator and start carrying stacks of ladders.

 

[Thorfinn]

14 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I am on 1.20P7 as well and that has not been my experience. I have had to fiddle around a lot to fix holes in the water I made.

OK, but did you make it just 1 wide? It needs 3 orthogonal source blocks to refill, and the third source block can be a newly-filled source block. If you EVER placed at least a 2x2, it will be unable to refill any of that.

Now I haven't checked building clear into the shoreline. I'll have to try that when it gets daylight. It just nudged up to Apoc, and I'm a bit too busy to test stuff until after daylight.

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

OK, but did you make it just 1 wide? It needs 3 orthogonal source blocks to refill, and the third source block can be a newly-filled source block. If you EVER placed at least a 2x2, it will be unable to refill any of that.

Now I haven't checked building clear into the shoreline. I'll have to try that when it gets daylight. It just nudged up to Apoc, and I'm a bit too busy to test stuff until after daylight.

Yes, I decided to be Chinese and do a Spratly islands.

So I've got this offshore base and I also built some platforms on the shoreline, which I decided to remove later, as well as I dug out the deposit of peat that was there. If this was MC, then I'd have just placed a bucket of water here or there in the corners where the existing water can't usually create a source block but the bulk of it would have filled in on its own.

One thing that does maybe skew the result is I began pouring in freshwater and at some point this thing is saltwater. I am not sure how the 2 interact with each other, or if they do at all.

Edited October 28 by Krougal

[Thorfinn]

No, you are right. I just couldn't see it with the dim light from the stars. Didn't it used to repair? Then again, I haven't disassembled my lake farms in the last several versions. That could definitely be a problem for farms if you make a mistake and put a block where you wanted a water. It cannot be recovered. Short of creative, probably.

I've fiddled around a lot with Wilderness Survival, and I'm just not figuring out a way to make farms other than filling in lakes and ponds. You can't even make a cistern so far as I can tell, as the water drains as fast through solid rock as it does through gravel. Maybe that's the point, though. If you want an upland farm, and there's no water nearby, you have to water it with a watering can. I'll confess I never saw much point to a watering can before, but now? Adapt, I guess. If you won't fill in a lake, you will have to spend time watering. And maybe in the future there will be Archimedes Screw based sprinkler systems?

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Maelstrom]

Watering can will max ground moisture to 100%.  Very useful if gardening in an area that isn't getting constant rainfall and you want to speed crop growth as much as possible.

[Krougal]

8 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

No, you are right. I just couldn't see it with the dim light from the stars. Didn't it used to repair? Then again, I haven't disassembled my lake farms in the last several versions. That could definitely be a problem for farms if you make a mistake and put a block where you wanted a water. It cannot be recovered. Short of creative, probably.

I've fiddled around a lot with Wilderness Survival, and I'm just not figuring out a way to make farms other than filling in lakes and ponds. You can't even make a cistern so far as I can tell, as the water drains as fast through solid rock as it does through gravel. Maybe that's the point, though. If you want an upland farm, and there's no water nearby, you have to water it with a watering can. I'll confess I never saw much point to a watering can before, but now? Adapt, I guess. If you won't fill in a lake, you will have to spend time watering. And maybe in the future there will be Archimedes Screw based sprinkler systems?

It's too time consuming and the soil drys out too fast to do on anything but a small scale. Early game I now look for rainy areas to build so the farm is kept fully hydrated with no effort, but you of course can't rely on it.

[Thorfinn]

Oh, the lake was repairing itself, even 2x2s, in Wilderness. Still don't have any way of making an upland farm, but that's probably why I thought source blocks healed nearby blocks.

[Thorfinn]

4 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Watering can will max ground moisture to 100%.  Very useful if gardening in an area that isn't getting constant rainfall and you want to speed crop growth as much as possible.

I guess. If the watering rate matched the movement rate, I might be tempted. But as it is, I've got to go back and water stuff that got skipped the first time around. Takes at least twice as long all told. I'm better off scrounging up more seeds and getting more planted at 75% than trying to top them up when it's not raining. Like @Krougal, I try to find an "almost always" rainfall region. I'd much rather low visibility than have to water.

[Thorfinn]

Sigh. It apparently does not repair if you make it bigger than 2x2.

[Maelstrom]

20 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

 Like @Krougal, I try to find an "almost always" rainfall region. I'd much rather low visibility than have to water.

Join the club gentlemen.  The only time I water is if I'm worried that last crop harvest before the first winter sets in and reduces my potential flax production.

[Echo Weaver]

I am not thrilled with the impression I'm getting for 1.20 from these vague references. I don't actually want to be unable to go outside in the dark without armor, at least on days of calm rift activity. I'm not really in this for constant combat.

[Thorfinn]

It is a big step up. Though Tryon said this was temporary, that the beasties (including drifters -- "It's a bright sunshiny day at noon. Go home, dude!") would not be roaming the countryside at the levels they currently are. My guess is, again, getting feedback from people who can deal with them about flaws in their AI. Though if they are not toned down, you will probably want to seal off all the caves around you, at the very least. And maybe do stuff inside or even (*shudder*) sleep.

[Krougal]

12 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I am not thrilled with the impression I'm getting for 1.20 from these vague references. I don't actually want to be unable to go outside in the dark without armor, at least on days of calm rift activity. I'm not really in this for constant combat.

Hopefully they tune them. Although supposedly the drifters got their rock-throwing nerfed and I am not feeling it either.

I've modded the 2 new mobs out, I dislike them that much. They are very annoying. The drifters are annoying too, but the game would just be empty without them. It's the same for the temporal storms, I like the idea but the execution is rubbish.

Otherwise, there is a lot of really great stuff in 1.20

 

[Echo Weaver]

It makes sense that they'd want to up the frequency of the new mobs for testing purposes. Sounds like the pre release would not be my cup of tea.

I like having danger so I can mitigate it and learn how to avoid it. In the current state, drifters and rift activity are present but don't overwhelm the gritty danger of keeping yourself fed and preparing for winter. I think the supernatural danger on the surface would be fun if it were somewhat more dangerous than it is now, but not a lot more dangerous, everywhere all the time.

I like the really intense otherworldly danger to be something I seek out. And I will seek it out when I'm comfortably civilized.

 

Edited October 28 by Echo Weaver

[Thorfinn]

28 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Sounds like the pre release would not be my cup of tea.

It's really hard to know. I don't think the supernatural foes spawn except in sufficiently dark locations. In order to remain active during daylight hours they have to be spawned in the first place. And I've never bothered to figure out how things work if you sleep through the night. My guess is they would not even exist in the first place in your game.

[EDIT]

In case you are wondering, I think this is probably to your advantage. If you sleep through the night, it's likely you do not have to worry about them overmuch. If a hypothetical multiplayer game chose not to sleep, you would have to deal with face-huggers at the rate we do.

[/EDIT] 

I think at this point, the most important thing is figuring out how difficult they are relative to other creatures. My guess is that face-huggers will replace some fraction of bears (they are much less damaging than bears, but similar in other respects) and that Pluckers will replace some drifters. And, further, I'd guess the damage of their missiles will decrease. Quite a few WS players think that is just too much damage.

Edited October 28 by Thorfinn

[Vratislav]

On 10/28/2024 at 6:19 PM, Thorfinn said:

With source blocks being able to be moved, you can make all kinds of absurd things like 1-block millponds hovering in mid-air. 

I admit that such kind of abusing stuff is not my way of thinking. 

[Echo Weaver]

1 minute ago, Vratislav said:

I admit that such kind of abusing stuff is not my way of thinking. 

Mine either. Also, being that my base has a view of a floating island beside a nearby mountain peak, it doesn't seem terribly shocking. The whole landscape is built on physics violations.