Why "Vintage Story"? isn't that TerraFirmaCraft Standalone?

[AngryRob]

4 hours ago, Robert Johnson said:

You can, but boy does it take a while. That list of stuff is what I found with about six full stacks of gravel panned, five granite stacks and one basalt. I'm not sure if cassiterite is more common depending on which gravel or sand you pan. I haven't gotten that deep into the probabilities yet. I didn't find much mind you, I'm definitely not swimming in it by any means. I don't even think it was enough to get a full pickaxe. Maybe to make a tin bronze pick or two, I'll have to check. I don't have the copper to tin ratio memorized. I'm still prospecting around the starting area of my world to see if I can find a deposit worth digging for. My world is 1024 blocks high, so sea level for me is around 440. I've dug down to around 180 in one spot and found a ton of copper because I got an ultra high reading from the surface, but I know the numbers on cassiterite are much smaller even when you get a reading that good.

I found a blue gear, a rusty gear, and copper spear heads along with quartz and copper nuggets from panning. I mostly do it to kill the night: swim to a gravel desert, and sit in the water until morning slowly eroding the desert for useful metals. I have not found casserite yet, so i don't know where it spawns at. I found one of those translocators, and a meteor, but now tin. Is there a trick to finding it or is it super rare?

[Robert Johnson]

19 hours ago, AngryRob said:

I found a blue gear, a rusty gear, and copper spear heads along with quartz and copper nuggets from panning. I mostly do it to kill the night: swim to a gravel desert, and sit in the water until morning slowly eroding the desert for useful metals. I have not found casserite yet, so i don't know where it spawns at. I found one of those translocators, and a meteor, but now tin. Is there a trick to finding it or is it super rare?

I'm not sure if you are asking me if there is a trick to finding it in the gravel or just in the ground in general, so I will comment on both. 

Like I said, I panned about half a dozen stacks of gravel and maybe came out with like half a dozen nuggets, not much (I went into my world to check). Going by those results, on average, you're looking at one nugget for every stack you pan if you're lucky. Not great odds, that. The stacks I panned were granite and basalt, as I mentioned. Mostly granite. Of the two types of nuggets besides copper I've gotten, sphalerite seems quite a bit more common than cassiterite. Copper is definitely the most common ore nugget by far. I do not know if the type of gravel or sand makes a difference, so you might try granite or basalt gravel as those are the two I got some sort of result with. It isn't magic though, and totally random out of a set group of items, so it could take quite a while and is probably not worth the return.

Tin (cassiterite) IS rarely available on the surface in ready-to-use raw chunk form just like copper. Unfortunately, even with what we did setting it to common (from the default of rare) in the settings when creating our world, we have found all of four pieces all together in one spot. And unfortunately, it was my wife that found it and didn't mark where she got it, so I have no idea where the small deposit just under the surface where she found it is. So yeah. Out of all the area we have explored, we have found DOZENS of spots with copper nuggets (which we also set to common) that we've marked and some which we've excavated already; but just ONE cassiterite spot (which I don't even know where it was). I'm not sure what 'common' means for cassiterite, but clearly copper being common and cassiterite being common mean two different things.

As far as prospecting on the surface for deeper mining operations goes, using the density search mode of the prospecting pick, I have not found a spot for cassiterite beyond very poor, if I even get a reading on it at all. It's been a real pain in the ass to search for. Of course, I have only been trying so far in the giant granite gravel desert where our base is. The top layer of stone there is granite (obviously) and the layer underneath is andesite. I don't know what the deepest layer is there yet, as I haven't gone down that far (the temporal instability mechanic makes it difficult). It may just be that cassiterite doesn't spawn much in those two types of rock (and whatever the bottom layer is). I know what the top layer of a lot of the surrounding biomes are, so I may have more luck expanding outward once I've thoroughly prospected around home. I also don't know what the second and third layers are in any of those biomes yet, so I may run across more varied stone which may more commonly house cassiterite. Who knows. With such a limited data set at the moment, I can't tell you with any sort of certainty if there is a trick to finding it, but I would bet money it's probably got something to do with the type of rock you're trying to find it in.

If you're having trouble finding cassiterite, you might try for sphalerite and bismuthinite to combine with copper to make bronze instead. On the down side, you have to try and find two ores instead of one. On the upside, sphalerite is somewhat common when panning, and even in the small amount of area I've covered in my prospecting, I've come across sphalerite and bismuthinite far more often than I have cassiterite (though not in very large densities to be sure). Again, this could be being affected by the rock types in the local area. And as an added bonus, if you get ahold of some sphalerite, you can start making brass for torch holders to get some permanent light going.

In summary, I still haven't gathered enough data from around my world to even begin to make some sort of chart of what types of ore are more common in what types of rock; so unfortunately, I can't help you at the moment with that specifically. I CAN tell you the method I use to prospect if you want that seems to get me the best and most accurate results. It's tedious though, so it might not be for everyone. Let me know and I can break it down for you. Hint: it is not just going around and poking rocks at random, it's very meticulous and methodical.

And on a side note, I've actually stumbled across two translocators myself, and both are not very far from our base (one is actually in the closest cave to it, in fact). Haven't gotten them up and working yet, though.

Edited October 22, 2020 by Robert Johnson

[AngryRob]

20 hours ago, Robert Johnson said:

I'm not sure if you are asking me if there is a trick to finding it in the gravel or just in the ground in general, so I will comment on both. 

Like I said, I panned about half a dozen stacks of gravel and maybe came out with like half a dozen nuggets, not much (I went into my world to check). Going by those results, on average, you're looking at one nugget for every stack you pan if you're lucky. Not great odds, that. The stacks I panned were granite and basalt, as I mentioned. Mostly granite. Of the two types of nuggets besides copper I've gotten, sphalerite seems quite a bit more common than cassiterite. Copper is definitely the most common ore nugget by far. I do not know if the type of gravel or sand makes a difference, so you might try granite or basalt gravel as those are the two I got some sort of result with. It isn't magic though, and totally random out of a set group of items, so it could take quite a while and is probably not worth the return.

Tin (cassiterite) IS rarely available on the surface in ready-to-use raw chunk form just like copper. Unfortunately, even with what we did setting it to common (from the default of rare) in the settings when creating our world, we have found all of four pieces all together in one spot. And unfortunately, it was my wife that found it and didn't mark where she got it, so I have no idea where the small deposit just under the surface where she found it is. So yeah. Out of all the area we have explored, we have found DOZENS of spots with copper nuggets (which we also set to common) that we've marked and some which we've excavated already; but just ONE cassiterite spot (which I don't even know where it was). I'm not sure what 'common' means for cassiterite, but clearly copper being common and cassiterite being common mean two different things.

As far as prospecting on the surface for deeper mining operations goes, using the density search mode of the prospecting pick, I have not found a spot for cassiterite beyond very poor, if I even get a reading on it at all. It's been a real pain in the ass to search for. Of course, I have only been trying so far in the giant granite gravel desert where our base is. The top layer of stone there is granite (obviously) and the layer underneath is andesite. I don't know what the deepest layer is there yet, as I haven't gone down that far (the temporal instability mechanic makes it difficult). It may just be that cassiterite doesn't spawn much in those two types of rock (and whatever the bottom layer is). I know what the top layer of a lot of the surrounding biomes are, so I may have more luck expanding outward once I've thoroughly prospected around home. I also don't know what the second and third layers are in any of those biomes yet, so I may run across more varied stone which may more commonly house cassiterite. Who knows. With such a limited data set at the moment, I can't tell you with any sort of certainty if there is a trick to finding it, but I would bet money it's probably got something to do with the type of rock you're trying to find it in.

If you're having trouble finding cassiterite, you might try for sphalerite and bismuthinite to combine with copper to make bronze instead. On the down side, you have to try and find two ores instead of one. On the upside, sphalerite is somewhat common when panning, and even in the small amount of area I've covered in my prospecting, I've come across sphalerite and bismuthinite far more often than I have cassiterite (though not in very large densities to be sure). Again, this could be being affected by the rock types in the local area. And as an added bonus, if you get ahold of some sphalerite, you can start making brass for torch holders to get some permanent light going.

In summary, I still haven't gathered enough data from around my world to even begin to make some sort of chart of what types of ore are more common in what types of rock; so unfortunately, I can't help you at the moment with that specifically. I CAN tell you the method I use to prospect if you want that seems to get me the best and most accurate results. It's tedious though, so it might not be for everyone. Let me know and I can break it down for you. Hint: it is not just going around and poking rocks at random, it's very meticulous and methodical.

And on a side note, I've actually stumbled across two translocators myself, and both are not very far from our base (one is actually in the closest cave to it, in fact). Haven't gotten them up and working yet, though.

Thanks for the explanation. I had assumed that only tin goes into bronze, but i never considered the other alloy. IC2 got me convinced that tin and copper would be super common, but that was minecraft and this is a different game. After watching some youtubers i have realized that bronze is very much an end game metal... 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2020 by AngryRob

[Robert Johnson]

11 hours ago, AngryRob said:

Thanks for the explanation. I had assumed that only tin goes into bronze, but i never considered the other alloy. IC2 got me convinced that tin and copper would be super common, but that was minecraft and this is a different game. After watching some youtubers i have realized that bronze is very much an end game metal... 

 

 

Yeah, there are actually three bronze alloys: tin bronze, which takes copper and cassiterite (tin); bismuth bronze, which takes copper, sphalerite (zinc), and bismuthinite (bismuth); and black bronze, which is made from a mixture of copper, silver, and gold. Of course, the rarity of the metals for, and the mix ratios of, are different for each of these, but there ARE three options you have for bronze. I've actually gotten two nuggets of gold by panning as well, so it's not that hard to get a little of at least. However, you cannot pan silver.

I've never played Industrial Craft 2, but I have played other mods that use stuff like copper and tin and just the fact you can go caving (even in vanilla) and reliably find something in every cave that goes down a decent ways makes Minecraft far different than Vintage Story. There is SO much exposed ore and other stuff in Minecraft most of the time that it sets up an unrealistic expectation that you can just walk through a cave system and you're swimming in coal, metal, and other goodies by the time you come out. I have been in quite a few caves and found only one smallish vein of sphalerite in only one of the them. I may have just had bad luck with the way the caves I've explored have spawned and not run into any exposed ore nodes, but caving (something I LOVE to do in Minecraft) has proven quite fruitless from my perspective so far. Time to whip out the propick and start prospecting the walls and floors, I guess.

I don't know if I would say that bronze is end game (which it isn't simply by the fact iron exists), but the amount of researching the overall composition of your world's underground via the prospecting pick and the searching around that goes into trying to alloy any sort of bronze (mainly for the cassiterite if you are going tin bronze, bismuthinite if you're going bismuth bronze, and silver if you're doing black bronze) is definitely a major hurdle to overcome to break into that age much more than it is for copper (pun intended ) This can become such a data intensive operation that there are literally peeps with excel spreadsheets if you search 'cassiterite' or some of the other ores on the official Discord. I sh*t you not. Luckily, any data you save and catalog may be useful when you are looking for ores other than the one you are focusing on currently.

Heck, if I hadn't had the experience from TFC of assuming that there were shallow ore deposits under the copper nuggets you find above ground, the copper age wouldn't be going nearly as smooth as it has for us by far. That is where the majority (I'd say like 90+%) of the copper we've been using (or that we know of with certainty in our world so far) had come from up to the point we found the two rich veins I describe below. Like I said, I've only dug one major mining hole down to the depth of 160 (out of a world height of 1024, and a sea level of about 440 remember). So I'm only a little over halfway down and haven't by any means cleared everywhere I could as my propick is still picking up some medium and better deposits deeper down from the ladder of my main shaft. I have the propick node search mode set to 8, btw. I found one decently sized poor and medium copper chunk vein at about 256, one slightly larger rich vein at 200-ish, and then the last huge rich one I just dug up at 180-190-ish. And there is still more that I haven't gone after yet. My density readings for copper from the surface in these areas were very high and ultra high, respectively.

Setting Up Prospecting Operations

If you need some help in the setting up of a reliable and quite thorough prospecting operation, I've done a decent amount of research of the biome our base is in and can definitely assist you so that you're not just randomly poking around the surface with the damn propick hoping to stumble across something.

Beware Using Coordinates With Prospecting and Mining Operations

I will tell you that you may not want to base anything off of the coordinates that show up when you press 'V' just yet. I have been having the same issue as this person that posted in the 'Bugs' forum way back on July 7th:

My coordinates for everything I keep coordinates for, such as my /tp macros that I use to get around the area between my farm and my base - CTRL+M btw to set those up - completely change EVERY SINGLE TIME I log into the game. You likely have this same issue as well but just don't realize it yet if you haven't tp-ed anywhere. You can check by setting up a /tp macro (or simply writing down the coordinates) for any fixed point, /tp-ing there once to see if it works, then logging out and back in and /tp-ing there again (without adjusting anything). Chances are, where you end up is going to be completely different every time after you log out and then back into the game. It can vary from up to barely different to, I estimate, about 100 or so blocks difference, it just depends. And this will change EVERY TIME you log out and in again. Needless to say, this has been very frustrating to find a workaround for.

My Previous Prospecting Setup

The coordinates of my world (which is what I was basing my initial prospecting operation on) have changed so many times as to completely destroy any ability to use them reliably. Now, the change is never more than like 100 blocks along both the X and Z axes, but that is definitely not usable when you get into the range of the propick's node search mode, which is at best a 25x25x25 cube (mine is 17x17x17, but I was going to up it to max after setting up my prospecting grid). Initially, I had my prospecting results going exactly every 50 blocks using the coordinates. Which means I would cover every single block of the underground of my world with the propick's node search mode set at max (which is 12) simply by building ladders from the surface to bedrock at each of those points and checking along them at the same distance vertically as well. I had prepped about eight of these spots on the surface around the -400 to -550 (negative X) to 500 to 600 (positive Z) axes of my world. Our base is situated to the southwest of the original world spawn, which seems to always be 0 X and 0 Z. We have changed our individual spawns with temporal gears so that we now spawn right by our beds if we die. I even put waypoints with abbreviated summaries of each prospecting result on my map using the little bar graph icon and made them pure blue to keep track of everything (I wrote them down on paper to start with). This really allowed me to get a good bird's eye sense of where the best places to dig further down would be. I then log off, and the next time I log in, I discover that the coordinates for my prospecting spots (not the actual spots themselves, they are still in the same spots relative to each other and everything else in the world) have shifted by some 20-50 blocks along both the X and Z axes and completely fubar-ed my prospecting work up to that point. With this knowledge, I searched for a work around in order to avoid having to count blocks as much as possible, and came up with the following.

Using .debug wireframe chunk to Set Up a Prospecting Grid

Now, depending on how cheaty you want to get with the game, you can access a feature that puts up a wireframe box around the borders of the 32x32 chunk (as opposed to Minecraft's 16x16 chunks) you are currently in. Just input .debug wireframe chunk . If you have others playing on your world, only you will be able to see the wireframe as dot (.) commands only work client-side. This box will follow you around and show you the exact edges and corners of every chunk you enter while it is turned on. And unlike with the coordinates that seem to be moving around currently, the wireframe has always stayed consistent. Btw, you'll also need to re-enter the command if you log out of the game.

This little thing is a lifesaver when it comes to setting up a prospecting operation with the coordinates flubbed as they currently are. What I have done is gone to the corners where all four of the chunks meet and put a one layer thick 2x2 cobblestone down so that there is one cobble in each chunk to mark where the exact corners are without having to have the grid up. I have then placed blocks toward the center of every chunk using a bunch of the gravel I've collected by placing it every other block starting from the corner of these cobblestone squares. When I get to the center with all four diagonal lines, there is a nice 2x2 gravel patch in the exact middle of every chunk. I then split the chunk into four 16x16 sections by placing gravel lines along the cardinal directions going out from the center of the main 32x32 chunk. I then use gravel to make diagonals to find the exact centers of each of these four 16x16 sub-sections. This is where I dig out enough dirt, sand, or gravel (gravel in the case of the area I am in currently) to get to stone in order to get the three blocks I need to prospect and have them be far enough apart. This is also where I will put the ladder if I choose to start making a shaft in this 16x16 quadrant.

I tried to find a picture online that is as close to what I am trying to describe as I can, and found this page:

https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Coding-structures-example-a-64x64-CTB-divided-into-13-CUs-b-32x32-CU-divided-into-2_fig1_257322879

I also uploaded that pic to the post, which you can find at the bottom of the post. I also made a marked up version where I attempted to draw what I describe here as well.

Figures (a) and (c) are what you should be looking at, just ignore Figure (b). Figure (a) would be a 64x64 area with the corners of four 32x32 chunks meeting right in the middle. Figure (c) (and the top-left quadrant of Figure (a)) then subdivides each of these 32x32 chunks into four smaller 16x16 areas. After prospecting at the center of each of these 16x16 areas with the propick's density mode above ground, and finding densities satisfactory enough that make me want to dig down further, I can now create shafts straight down the middle of every one of these 16x16 block areas that I've prospected and found to have the type and density of ore I am looking for. At this point, using the propick's node search mode set to 8 (by typing /worldconfig propickNodeSearchRadius 8 ) and using the 'F' key to switch modes, I now have the ability to thoroughly check (if I wanted to), every single block of my world by prospecting every 32 blocks as I go down each ladder. Regardless of the size of your world, as long as you had the propick node search mode radius set to 8 you would prospect every 32 blocks, so on the Y axis you would start with 0 or 1 (or as close to 0 or 1 as you can get), then prospect at 32, 64, 96, 128, 160, 192, etc. until you reached the surface. Since a search radius of 8 generates a 17x17x17 cube in which it searches for any ore nodes from the block you prospect, this allows you to find ore no matter where it is.

I know this example might be hard to understand, so if you need further help in grasping this setup, let me know and I'll try to explain it better.

Marking Things With Signs (While Prospecting and Any Other Time)

This might be a good place to mention how to make signs and write on them, so that you can mark your prospecting findings in world (and not just on the map). This is especially useful when you start using the propick's node search mode to pinpoint where a node is located. Putting signs along the walls on every axis as you prospect it REALLY helps to remember and figure out where stuff is located underground. Signs are made with two boards (which you need a saw to make) and a stick. Place the two boards in a stack directly above the stick in the crafting grid. After you place them down, you can then write on them with any item that has the word 'Pigment' in its description by holding Shift and Right-Clicking. The item you use dictates the color the text on the sign will be. So, charcoal and black coal are black, lapis lazuli is blue, cinnabar is red, and so on. Also, a heads up, the thing you are writing with can randomly get used up once you complete a writing on a sign, so you might want to carry a handful so you're not left with a bunch of signs and no way to mark them.

In Conclusion

But yeah, there you go. The ability to check every last block of your world, if you have the patience (which admittedly I am definitely having difficulty trying to muster sometimes). Super meticulous and super methodical, leaving literally no block unchecked. The only two roadblocks I see having to deal with is when you come across lava, and when you find caves. And the fact that if you have temporal stability turned on, you have to deal with surfacing regularly (or at least going up to where it starts recovering) to gain it back so you don't die. If you happen to dig into a cave while doing this, just wrap your ladder in blocks so to keep the mobs from getting to you (and maybe slap a door right where it meets the floor for easy entry and exit to and from) and continue down vertically through it. If it's really high up when you break through the ceiling, just use some sand or gravel to meet up with the celling where your ladder is, make a pillar to attach your ladder to while making your way safely down, and copy the above by encasing your ladder. Piece of cake. 

Understanding the Prospecting Pick Readings

While there are plenty of YouTube videos on this topic, and the wiki describes it pretty good as well, if you need help understanding the results you get from either mode of the prospecting pick, you can let me know and I'll try and answer any questions you have.

Wiki Pages

Here are also the wiki pages I got the commands from I mention in this post:

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=List_of_server_commands/worldconfig

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=List_of_server_commands/tp

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=List_of_client_commands

And here is a list of all the pages on the wiki so far in case you just want to root around:

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=Special:AllPages&hideredirects=1

Hope this all helps.

Here's the pic that link above in the 'Using .debug wireframe chunk to Set Up a Prospecting Grid' section goes to so you have it right here:

And here is the marked up version with a few colored squares showing where certain features are placed:

Edited October 22, 2020 by Robert Johnson