What are the must-haves for a "finished" Vintage Story?

[Ender Riens]

There are a lot of good posts here, and I agree with a lot of the recommendations, especially those that suggest more content or system overhauls.

However, I can say with confidence that the singular most important thing needed before a release of any kind is a well-structured tutorial system. This is where Minecraft and other knock-offs have horribly failed, and in a game like Vintage Story (where many varied systems, mechanics, and obstacles interact all at once) it will be the sole factor that influences whether new players want to keep playing or ask for a refund.

Open-world sandbox games like these need a very clear sense of direction. One of the biggest issues facing new players is a sense of goallessness, where they do not have enough game knowledge yet to know what to do, what to aim for, or how to progress. The "Progression" and "Starter Survival Guide" sections of the in-game help guide are a much-needed start, but it needs more. Text alone is one of the worst methods of learning and leads to the poorest information retention, and though players are effectively learning from the guide as they actually play, there is much improvement to be made. Even just putting the dynamic help-guide item icons into progression guide sections where relevant would be an immense improvement. Adding images (or gifs especially--learning is best done by copying actions) would also assist immensely in ease of learning and begin to remove the disconnect between text and gameplay.

A tutorial mode may be a good idea, or even better isolated tutorial modes that apply to individual mechanic systems (see how Factorio, an incredibly complex game, isolates parts of learning into digestible sections for tutorial purposes). Such would allow you to remove unnecessary distractions or components (e.g. learning to claymold can be frustrating or inhibited when you are also impeded by wolves, hunger, drifters, etc.) and optimize the learning process to maximize learning and minimize frustration.

The greatest new-player interest killers are not knowing what to do, not knowing how to do something, being unable to learn how to do something, or failing because of something they have not yet learned. All of these issues very quickly generate frustration, which will push players away from a complex game like this. Brand new players plopped in a new world as of right now are tasked with learning many different things before nightfall, and oftentimes the hard way. To put it in perspective, one of the most important things to a functional, non-frustrating night is simply creating a torch (which I do not see emphasized enough in the help guide, but I see many complaints about from new players). To create a torch before nightfall, new players have limited time to learn the class system, movement system, basic controls, crafting, knapping, toolmaking, collecting ground materials (grass/stones/sticks), how to collect wood, how to make firewood, how to construct a campfire, how to light a campfire, how to fire a torch, how the fire fuel/temperature systems work, etc. (among other intermediary tasks like collecting reeds for hand baskets, avoiding dangers, caring about hunger, what is this blue gear on my toolbar? etc.). Some of these may take seconds, some minutes--it depends on the player's familiarity with games and how fast of learners they are. Not everyone is equal. And when tutorial systems do not accommodate this inequality as much as possible, learning becomes frustrating, which in turn causes discontent with the game.

The first few minutes of gameplay are the indisputably most important moments when it comes to playing or refunding (keeping or losing a player). And 95% of the first few minutes of games will need to be telling the player how to play at a very basic level, then giving them a clear sense of direction. This is especially important in complex sandbox games that otherwise dump rules and systems on the player, and easing newcomers into the experience at their own customized pace will ensure that no one loses interest due to an absence of game knowledge.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Ender Riens

[Luminus]

For me, I think a big thing is the missing topographical elements. From Humanity's earliest days, we settled on waterways that provided us food, water, mechanical power, relatively safe transit, and a natural barrier against things looking to kill us. I think it is a huge miss to not have rivers and oceans as they have played such a huge role in our development as a civilization.

 

To go along with that, options for transit that do not involve your feet, even if that means making walking speed slower or making greater use of some mechanics such as fatigue. Besides mounts like horses and mules, you could have boats and carts. Almost all of my late-game minecraft time has been spent building massive rail networks, road networks, sub-bases and the like.....and there's almost none of that content here. I see the sentiment in the Discord over and over, the thrill is gone once you get steel.

 

Exploration should for all intents and purposes never end, there should always be something new to see. Expansion, and reasons fueling it, should never end. When one or both of those run low in a sandbox, it's death for that game in my mind. Homesteading is great, I love what's been done to augment and strengthen the survival mechanics.....but the world outside your base should be just as interesting. It's challenging to balance these concerns, but ultimately you have to ask yourself whether 3D Stardew Valley (with less story) is really where we want this game to end up. More worldgen, more interesting worldgen, more reasons to explore and more tools to help with that exploration are critical. Love the idea of procedurally generated lore mentioned here as well, I think that works better than a common story across all worlds.

Server tools are nice to have. Better combat is probably necessary, as is enemy variety. But if your sandbox can't extend outward effectively as the player grows and progresses, I'm not sure I see the path to success. Sandboxes attract explorers and builders.....the point is to appeal to those different types of players within the same game.

[Maelstrom]

20 minutes ago, Luminus said:

For me, I think a big thing is the missing topographical elements. From Humanity's earliest days, we settled on waterways that provided us food, water, mechanical power, relatively safe transit, and a natural barrier against things looking to kill us. I think it is a huge miss to not have rivers and oceans as they have played such a huge role in our development as a civilization.

Check the roadmap.  Much of what you mentioned is in there.

https://www.vintagestory.at/roadmap.html/

[Luminus]

28 minutes ago, Maelstrom said:

Check the roadmap.  Much of what you mentioned is in there.

https://www.vintagestory.at/roadmap.html/

No offense, but this is a three year old thread and these items are still not in the game. Until they make it into the game, it's smart to keep asking for them if you believe it's important to the experience (and I do). Items fall off of roadmaps all the time. In fact, the whole reason I'm on these forums was a discussion we had on Discord *last month* about this very topic.....so color me unconvinced that waterways and seas are an ironclad reality.

[Maelstrom]

Consider that there's 1.5 coders making all this happen.  There's not exactly a modest team of developers like mc has.

[Luminus]

22 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Consider that there's 1.5 coders making all this happen.  There's not exactly a modest team of developers like mc has.

I didn't offer any criticism of Tyron or his team. As I see it, they are doing great with what they have available. The last update was loaded with cool stuff, and the direction they are going with mushrooms seems to indicate that variety is on their minds.

Showing my support and encouragement for a game element is not the same as criticizing why it hasn't happened yet. I work with developers, I know how often things we want to accomplish wind up being shuffled off the board for lack of time or resources. I'm merely providing a +1 for the earlier mentions of waterways in this very old thread.

If my tone seemed critical, I can assure you that wasn't my intent.

[Maelstrom]

No blood no foul.  I may have injected inflection that was not your intention (sorry for the alliteration).  

[Laskuna]

"More intuitive prospecting" Its ok now i think, maybe only change displayning text, noo need change mechanics in my opinion.

I wish to see some better, bigger dungeons - unserground ( or not ) cities / vaults, forges, weird mechanical not working factories, roads fragments on /and underground. 
Will be greate see random generated world history. When player can find some locations names on signs next to ruined roads, about which he read in books.
More NPC's and quests system. In game compass and maps to this dungeons, conneted to this world lore to explore. 
More unique objects / locations to explore, not only ruins but also some "nature wonders": volcanoes, canyons, greate flower meadows.

Maybe random lore it's not what game MUST HAVE but more things to explore  
 

[Game Nerd]

On 8/3/2021 at 12:49 PM, caffeine9999 said:

@redram have you guys considered opensourcing the engine (but not assets)? That way  you could have some free contributions and focus more on new content. I, for one, would dedicate some time to improve the engine and fix some bugs

Vintage story is built upon the manic digger game enginehttp://manicdigger.github.io/releases/

[Game Nerd]

On 8/7/2021 at 10:00 PM, Laskuna said:

"More intuitive prospecting" Its ok now i think, maybe only change displayning text, noo need change mechanics in my opinion.

I wish to see some better, bigger dungeons - unserground ( or not ) cities / vaults, forges, weird mechanical not working factories, roads fragments on /and underground. 
Will be greate see random generated world history. When player can find some locations names on signs next to ruined roads, about which he read in books.
More NPC's and quests system. In game compass and maps to this dungeons, conneted to this world lore to explore. 
More unique objects / locations to explore, not only ruins but also some "nature wonders": volcanoes, canyons, greate flower meadows.

Maybe random lore it's not what game MUST HAVE but more things to explore  
 

I want all of it, aslong as the NPC's don't assign tasks, if they assign tasks, will leave. I don't like games that do it! I want point to sand box, this would add it, but NPC's thats assign tasks would make it no longer sandbox

[Maelstrom]

17 hours ago, Game Nerd said:

I want all of it, aslong as the NPC's don't assign tasks, if they assign tasks, will leave. I don't like games that do it! I want point to sand box, this would add it, but NPC's thats assign tasks would make it no longer sandbox

What about NPCs that provide a hook?  Something like a trader mentions, "A man that sold me some of my wares mentioned he saw some ruins in the mountains north of here."  Whether you go or not, doesn't impact ANYTHING thereafter.  Show up and there might be a looted ruin, might be some nasties and treasures or something in between.

[l33tmaan]

It would be kind of neat if you could ask a trader about rumors or local information and they point you towards something that's already there. Maybe a seed merchant knows where some terra preta is, or a luxury merchant heard about people finding gold ore to the southeast. 

[Filvandrel]

I would like to see the distilation/brewing system at work.  I've seen that there's a distiller model in the creative panel already and it makes me excited, cause I've always liked herbalism and alchemy mechanics in survival games. It would be cool to create alcoholic and herbal beverages which would provide some sort of status effects and/or buffs. Also it would be nice to have a chopping stump/block that you could place on the ground, put logs on it and use an actual axe to split it into firewood (i.e. like the Immersion mod used to have).
Immersion is my top one favourite aspect of any survival game, and in my opinion it's a thing that make you stay for a long time. Vintage Story does it good, and in my opinion the more immersive aspects the better  

[caffeine9999]

On 8/16/2021 at 3:12 AM, Game Nerd said:

Vintage story is built upon the manic digger game enginehttp://manicdigger.github.io/releases/

That's nice to know, thanks for the heads up

[Pestilence]

Found lore objects or NPCs providing hints about the surroundings would be PERFECT.  I think the original Subnautica is a near perfect example of how a story driven game can still be very sandbox.  I don't think Vintage Story should be anywhere near that story driven, but adopting the idea of events or discoveries leaving clues to progression or resources would be an amazing addition.

[Maelstrom]

The roadmap indicates that there's a story that is to be told.  I hope that story is how the previous civilization shattered the world.

[Game Nerd]

On 8/16/2021 at 1:38 PM, Maelstrom said:

What about NPCs that provide a hook?  Something like a trader mentions, "A man that sold me some of my wares mentioned he saw some ruins in the mountains north of here."  Whether you go or not, doesn't impact ANYTHING thereafter.  Show up and there might be a looted ruin, might be some nasties and treasures or something in between.

As long as it is optional, where you don't have to go there to complete the game. The definition of a sandbox game is doing what you want, finding your own objective, if NPC do it for you, I wouldn't like that. If they told you where to go it might be fine, but if you have to come back to them for some reason, it wouldn't be fine.