⚙️Make Temporal Storms Fun!⚙️

[Thalius]

I am baffled, again- personally, by the conflict between those that want a challenge, and those that don't like to be challenged and want an easy, nonthreatening way to deal with monsters and storms. This seems to come up a LOT when these kinds of topics arise for discussion.

The game already gives you every tool you need to make it as easy as you want.  There is zero reason to not make it more challenging, like many would also like. 

As it is, you can turn the settings up as high as you want for making mobs as difficult as the settings allow, then climb up on a two block pillar and kill them without any risk to yourself.  That feels very odd, and unfinished, and boring, and, well... odd. 

The Lovecraftian side of the game inspiration and description communicates a certain severe danger that can't be avoided and that you will have to face. Vintage Story is a sandbox game, but one that has a solid and very clearly communicated horror theme running through it.  Many are looking forward to even more challenging mobs and combat that reflect that side of the game.

If a player does not like combat and unavoidable challenges, storms can be shortened or turned off altogether. Player's hp can be bumped up very high and mobs made very, very weak. Temporal stability can be turned off as well.... The list could go on.  Suggesting that certain mechanics in the game be made more challenging than they currently are when all the options are currently implemented in the game to turn off or greatly weaken any challenges does not mean the game is going to be harder for those that don't want it so, it just means that those of us looking for a greater challenge and more dynamic enemies are hungry for something that can't be "cheesed".. something we can't simply escape or hide from, but something that must be dealt with in dynamic, and challenging ways.

One significant element of Lovecraftian horror is the fact that no matter what you do, you can't avoid or escape it. Just when you think you are safe, something else comes for you.  It is going to get you, eventually, one way or another, whatever "it" is.  The challenge is building a home or a community in this haunted sandbox world and seeing how far you can get and how long you can survive before it does get you.  And maybe, if you are very, very good, you might just be able to keep it at bay... most of the time.

~TH~

Edited September 18, 2021 by Thalius

[l33tmaan]

Because "cheesing" something, by definition, is a degenerate strategy. If someone handles their first night in VS by digging into the dirt, sealing themselves in a hole, and walking away for 10-15 minutes - that's not something that should be in the game because it discourages playing the game. Nerd poles are another method of avoiding gameplay, which is why the mechanics surrounding the problem should be corrected so that people do not want or feel the need to stand on a pillar for 10 minutes.

[junawood]

7 hours ago, Ari said:

I think for me, they're just an annoyance that provides absolutely no benefit

Well, they are a good way to get more temporal gears, if you want/need more. And it looks interesting and you get to see some drifters on the surface that you normally wouldn't see there. But, yeah, I think that's about it at the moment.

To make temporal storms more interesting so that players want to experience them, and that over and over again, you can add things to different aspects of them.

a) what they look like (I already like that, but maybe there are ways to make it even better or add effects), so that even just watching is kinda fun

b) what they sound like or what you hear during the storms (sounds are already altered by storms, but more could be possible)

b) you get so see things you normally don't get to see (more than underground drifters over ground; maybe storm flowers that only open during a storm or whatever)

c) it enables you to do things you normally can't do (like seeing another layer of information on tapestries)

d) it enables you to do something faster, better or in a more efficient way

e) you can use them to get more of something (like temporal gears; but it could also be from something/someone else, not just enemies)

f) you can use them to get something you only can get this way, or maybe one other way; useful or just a trophy (again not just loot from enemies)

g) a storm or a specific aspect of it (that is everywhere or something you have to find/chase) can change a thing or your seraph, for the duration of the storm or longer

h) you can fight against more enemies or different enemies on different terrain than normally

i) ...

 

Edited September 19, 2021 by junawood

[Silent Shadow]

17 hours ago, junawood said:

1. That would be a bad thing for those who actually like the pillar strategy.

2. That would be a bad thing for those who dislike ranged attacks.

3. Then even more people would just skip the storms.

4. Modifying the pillars a bit would help against ranged attacks, it would just make it a bit more complicated.

1. Good, anything that discourages a player from just standing on top of 2 blocks and not doing anything for a good while is a good thing. Players should be nudged towards activities more fun than standing around listening to drifter serenades. That said, I doubt many people do this regularly as it is so boring (but then people like panning, so what do I know).
2. And a good thing for people who like ranged attacks. People cannot seem to agree on anything about combat except that it needs improving. Some people will be unhappy regardless of what is implemented. Not introducing a new feature that adds substance to the game for most players because some (ideally the minority of) people may be unhappy with it will only allow the game to stagnate. There is also the configurable nature of Vintage Story that enables players to tailor the game to their preference, so more options should always be good regardless of popularity.
3. Doubt it, pillar strategy is the least attractive option and I bet most people only do it when they have no other options they are comfortable with (such as walking around in the night or forest). If they are not skipping storms already I don't see why they would when pillar strategy is gone.
4. Also good, and though it depends on the ranged attack, you at least would have to work on your pillar a bit then or carry more materials around.

If ranged attacks are not good enough then perhaps a floating ghost entity that can pass through all blocks would suffice as Thalius suggested. You could run or fight it, but pillars would not save you.

14 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

There is no pillar "strategy". It is not even a tactic. It's just abusing AI and the poor state of enemies in this game. If just having mobs with ranged attacks invalidates such a simple "strategy", then it should have never existed to begin with.

It is a strategy in the sense that you are gaining safety at the expense of the most valuable resource: the player's time, and there are already simple strategies better than it that have apparently not eliminated it. It is a time wasting crutch for a bad player imo.

10 hours ago, junawood said:

And that is why a castle/tower like IRL (where it can even be completely dark) isn't enough in the game and a good way to deal with that is an almost safe pillar or a couple of strategically placed ones farther away from your base with some trenches around them to trap some drifters.

Can't you make a structure with slab floors (offset from full blocks) that prevents them from spawning inside? If you make crenellations or arrow loops on your castle tower or fortress you could kill the drifters from range too.

10 hours ago, Ari said:

Yeah some of this feels a bit like "how do we force everyone to play in one specific way?" which is... why? If someone likes cheesing the drifters with murder holes, why prevent them? If someone doesn't find that playstyle fulfilling, then why wouldn't they just play the way they want?

There are a few reasons to restrict players' options.

• Game balance: Being able to farm drifters for gears and flax upsets the balance of the game as items like temporal gears and rusty gears are supposed to be rare and flax fibers and their products are meant to be quite limited until you get a farm running. Farming gears should require either a lot of time to acquire (set up infrastructure to "farm" them via trade goods or spawns, or exploring for ruins to find them; otherwise, items the traders sell would also be too easy to get. Temporal gears should be rare enough that players cannot just drop spawn points often but maybe once every few IRL days, otherwise the fear of death is not an issue. in multiplayer this is more important as players will stop feeling the need to rely on each other so much as just depending on the ever present 
• Protect player from not experiencing stages of the game: Having quick access to metal tools via traders and linen sacks/armors from flax fiber drops before having to make many stone tools or crafting the lower tier armors (wood lamellar for example) would skip entire phases of the game. Being able to cheaply (relatively, when farming gears) purchase everything from traders means you don't need to setup or upgrade the infrastructure for making the items traders sell. Maybe you would prefer to start in a later progression stage, but you can already do this by changing to creative mode and giving yourself whatever items you want and then switching back to survival.
• Maintaining a survival aspect: Being able to cheese a portion of the survival challenges detracts from the survival theme/mood (if you don't want to deal with it and just want to build/explore, that's fine but you should just disable the storms entirely and let it become a harder challenge for those who want it) and the accomplishment of overcoming it.
• Protect the player from themselves: The game will not seem very fun if you have to sit idle doing nothing while you wait on a pillar simply to not die. A better option is to force players into something more exciting so their time is not wasted by a boring experience, even if they die more often. Players can have the experience of learning and getting better or they can at least decide not to deal with it.