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Wolves: What's Wrong, and What Can Be Done


Machaeus

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16 hours ago, Pestilence said:

As a person who treats every run as if it was hardcore and tries very hard not to die at all ever, I feel like if you're dying literally hundreds of times per world, your problem is optimism, not enemies.  Without great armor, you don't stand a chance against a sheep, much less a wolf, without employing some kind of other strategy that negates your weaknesses.

This. For me, death means create a new world.

 

@Sam BillingtonI agree that it's odd that the horror monsters are wussies. They do appear in much larger numbers than wolves. I can pretty much always collect the wolf drops, but I miss out on at least a third of the drifter drops -- they despawn before I have enough time to get to them. It's even worse now since they don't just go away at sunrise like they used to.

If you play with map, you can probably find plains in some direction. If you don't use the map, you need to climb a mountain or a tree and find one. Sometimes the RNG just goes against you, and you have no choice but to lead through low branches with your face. Then there's nothing you can do but advance slowly, stop and listen, repeat. If you advance slowly enough, you can usually hear them howl before they aggro, but if the luck gods are not with you, there will be a wolf right behind the trunk one of these times. Run like the wind. I've outrun about a dozen or so before, but most of the time if I run smack into another couple, I'll end up getting stuck on something and die. 

Big deal, right? I'm only 10 minutes into the game.

 

On 3/30/2022 at 10:42 PM, Fireztonez said:

now wolves manage to jump on you even when they are on water, if it is only 1 block of water deep, but on your side you can't run and or jump really.

I could swear I've seen them jump even in deep water. But you are right. Deep water is no longer the gimmee it was. I think probably if you aren't up to a running fight, that leaves running or pillar/ladder. Pillar is a little chancy, but fortunately, ladder is cheap (free, really, since you are going to need them later anyway)  and very quick.

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21 hours ago, Sam Billington said:

It might help if I didn't lag like a motherfucker when I can see more than 2 chunks away from my current position.  And I'm pretty sure the computer I'm using to play is high-end with 16 GB of RAM.

Ok now it's starting to make sense.  Your problem isn't wolves.  You are playing on a potato.  Memory isn't how you tell if your computer is high-end.  Memory doesn't increase performance.  The only effect memory has on performance is when you don't have enough and the lack of it slows you down.  

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The real |problem" with wolves, i've found is blindly stumbling into the aggro-range,  
Hop over a hill , push past leaves/ bushes that obscure line of sight, and lots of times ( near any forested area ) , a wolf or more than one usually , will be lurking in said area ... abd often it will aggro/attack without warning...

 Real life, wolves ONLY attack prey as a PACK , if they think/feel such grants them advantage.  Solo or even a mated pair will , run/hide from any creature they consider a detrimental threat. 
Stories/tales of wolf attack's in the wild on people, are by and large circumstantial accounts, giving many unspoken factors as , scarcity of game/food, unaccustomed to bi-pedl presences, and of course protection of young. 
 
This however is not - common- behavior of wolves, coyote. Hyena , or dingo ( though dingo/wild dogs are far more territorial/aggressive by nature. )

 I know this, because i work in US forestry, in a program to save wolf species from relative endangerment. These creatures , are NOT "domesticated" canines, but they have individually roughly the same basic apprehension to fire, and any type of predator ( Humans/bi-peds include ) , as any domesticated canine. In -fact- , thee creatures often smell scent of apex predators ( including humans ), long before line of sight is in given... 
As such the PACK leader . the Alpha male will decide ..if defense or offense is warranted... but unless a "pack" greatly out numbers a single predatory mammal... ( in this case, human/bi-ped, large cat ( like panther, mountain lion, or jaguar/) .or bear , the alpha will pick "survival " of its pack, over blatant "attacks" on such creatures if territories over-lap. 
 Wolves are not " stupid" killing machines . but a living entity that also fears for it's own life, as well as its community ( pack), and young. 
It is a decision made by the |"leader" and followed by the rest of he pack ( betas) , but only so much as the Pack itself would out0-numer, or have great advantages of taking down a subject of prey, with as little energy ( calories) , as possible. 

 While VS , as a game, -needs- opposition , I think wolves /hyena are sadly, displaced in not only how they hunt/attack , but are depicted over-all in the aggressive aspects so far. 

The In game "aggression" would actually be more akin to predatory great cats , ( such as mountain lion/puma/panther ) than what wolves or packs of canines would do. 

I say this because, wolves IG seen to not give really any "warning" you've stumbled into their territory .. often, you go through bushes, over  hill, and the beast is coming at you with not even so much as a growl to announce they were in he area.  Which, in real life, would never, ever happen.  Once feeling threatened, there'd be howls and  yips of the pack communicating with the alpha male ( pack leader ) , upon smell or hearing detection, long before line of sight was met. 

 Realistically from a survival perspective, a player should -know- when near  wollf spawn, or any area they occupy, buy the noises they make in day-to-day, ( Mostly nocturnal actually ) activities. 

Thats why wolves in VS seem over-powered early game , the behavior, verses RL actual counter parts, are extreme , and often unforgiving in players just inside Stone Age/Copper age early delving. 

 

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2 hours ago, gibbelblonk said:

Everyone saying that wolves don't just attack people are speaking from a modern human perspective. Even 1000 years ago(which is way higher in the tier of civilization that's in VS) if you walked alone in a wolf pack territory you were literally asking to get shredded.

"""modern human perspective."""

I'm sorry, did wolf instincts somehow change in the past 1000 years without our knowing?

Besides, that's wolf packs.  We're talking about lone wolves.  Yeah, you find packs, but that's gonna be trouble no matter what the attacker is.

Although now that you mention it, that does make a good idea for an update/modification.  Perhaps wolf behavior in-game changes if there's more than one present in a small radius (about a chunk or so)?

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On 4/1/2022 at 1:30 PM, Pestilence said:

Ok now it's starting to make sense.  Your problem isn't wolves.  You are playing on a potato.  Memory isn't how you tell if your computer is high-end.  Memory doesn't increase performance.  The only effect memory has on performance is when you don't have enough and the lack of it slows you down.  

So, I recently started playing on my laptop, which is only about a year old, and my desktop is only a year older than that...

...and yet, the laptop plays far better.  Despite the desktop being built for gaming.

I think it might be the fact that I'm running Linux on the desktop.  It's the only thing that makes sense.

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I feel like the Wolves being dangerous, moreso than real life, feels like a good fit for the setting. If things are desperate for the players then its probably desperate for the worlds natural predators too. From a game design standpoint however i feel they could be better telegraphed. More than once early on i've been backing up poking a Drifter to death only to suddenly die, think "that can't be right he wasn't even touching me" only to see a chat message i was killed by a wolf out of nowhere. 

Theres the howling in the distance but honestly it seems to lack any real depth to it to tell if its near or close and may as well just be ambient sound effects unrelated to mob spawns. For all i know it very well could be. 

 

Some sound effect for sticks breaking or a low growl telling the player to stop, turn around and move away or move ahead and expect a fight would help a lot especially in areas with lots of brush where visibility can get pretty short range.

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This is a solid topic and I first off want to say I understand the view point that they're over aggressive, and even agree. 

 

With that being said we have very few hostile mobs in the game, and as they flesh out animals I am almost positive the vintage team are going to revisit animal AI and when adding more mobs, some will be changed to be less aggressive. While other more rare mobs perhaps take their place as the biggest aggressor. 

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It's been a while since I played, but as I recall, most of my problem with wolves was them being stone-silent most of the time.  I'm in a thickly bushed area and can't see more than a few blocks away, suddenly I hear *BARK BARK* and half my health is gone, then I'm dead a moment later.

Sometimes they like to give me a warning growl, and that's nice, but it's no where near a reliable means of detection and avoidance.

The entire issue of wolves could be fixed by giving them a large radius of reliable warning, and an actual leash distance, or otherwise reducing their chase distance.

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The whole aggressive wolves thing is the main immersion buster for me, in many games, but especially in this one,  as someone who has studied wolves for many years. They're largely opportunists in the wild. Sure, they'll put up a fight when you put them in a corner, or they'll take advantage of an easy meal if you're alone in the woods with a broken leg and they've not eaten in days, but they're persistence predators like us. They don't fight anything near their size, their tactic is to intimidate, and chase until their prey is exhausted enough to be an easy kill. Most animals can hold their own against a single wolf if they stand their ground, often even a whole pack can be discouraged by making it clear you're not an easy kill.

I understand wolves serve an in game purpose, but its a role that I feel could be filled by any number of fictional creatures. Wolves can still pose a challenge from a gameplay perspective, in a more immersive way. They could stalk you when you're severely injured, and go for the kill then, or perhaps only stalk the physically weaker character classes . They could harass and kill your livestock, vandalize your animal pens, thin the local wildlife to the point its hard to hunt game,  resulting in a need to go out to the woods and reduce their numbers, at which point the pack becomes a real threat .

Maybe when you kill off enough you can find a wolf pup in a den. and raise it to become a semi domestic livestock guardian or hunting companion, though I know domestic wolves has been suggested about a million times by now.

I know "Realism" is only a good thing to a point in a game, but it contributes to immersion and the immersiveness of the world is one of the most enjoyable and unique qualities of this game. 

TLDR, There are more immersive and realistic ways to use wolves that don't detract from the setting but still provide interesting game mechanics without them being one dimensional omnipresent monstrous killers of the night (and day)

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Even in my second/third year with linen armor, and not seeking them out, I'm dying to wolves.

Ok, the last time I was running back to my base, after going out for an adventure, and ran within range of one.

 

Still, and I haven't seen this before, this is what gets me - the teleportation.

 

It is like the Minecraft dogs which teleport to you when you're out of range.

I make a run for it into water, and "Blam!" the wolf is ahead of me! How? ? ?

 

This "teleportation" has happened a few times.

 

. . . I'm waiting for the response of "Lag."

 

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11 hours ago, TheDancingFox said:

Even in my second/third year with linen armor, and not seeking them out, I'm dying to wolves.

Ok, the last time I was running back to my base, after going out for an adventure, and ran within range of one.

 

Still, and I haven't seen this before, this is what gets me - the teleportation.

 

It is like the Minecraft dogs which teleport to you when you're out of range.

I make a run for it into water, and "Blam!" the wolf is ahead of me! How? ? ?

 

This "teleportation" has happened a few times.

 

. . . I'm waiting for the response of "Lag."

 

They were probably jumping for you right before you went into the water. From own experience it feels like they can often jump like 10 blocks horizontally.

What I have found useful as an early game tactic against wolves is just carrying 3 flint spears with you. If you hit all three, then the wolf will run away because of its health and then it is just your choice to pursue him or not. When there are multiple I always either try to lure them into water and then climb out of the water myself or I just walk up a hill or something and finish them off.

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50 minutes ago, Kirb said:

They were probably jumping for you right before you went into the water. From own experience it feels like they can often jump like 10 blocks horizontally.

This is it. Their lunge can be almost comically absurd in its length when they're going downhill.

Wolves have 14hp (female) and 15hp (male), so upgrading to tin (7.5hp) or black bronze (8hp) spears once you're able to can make a huge difference as well. Ideally black bronze for non-hunters, as a single tick of hp regen would make male wolves take three hits to kill instead of just two. I can't speak for the effectiveness of vanilla bows.

Honestly, though, the best way to increase your odds of survival is to simply practice. Create a new game, turn off dropping gear on death, and use creative mode to give yourself the basic load out you want to practice with. By doing this, you completely eliminate the panic that comes with encountering wolves in a legit game where you actually have something to lose, and are able to focus exclusively on the fight at hand.

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So uh, I just installed this game in the last few hours, and actually went to look up tips on dealing with wolves. And I find this thread. With people defending The Iconic Vintage Story Wolves That Will Kill You™. For reasons I cannot understand.
I wanted to reinforce everything I've seen so far: the wolves are too freaking hardcore. They do plenty of damage, chase you forever, and do enough damage that you will die if they see you. And they will see you. Before you see them, usually, is my own experience.
I actually am going to have a difficult time recommending this to other people. Like, I want to like this. I do. More complex Minecraft, with an actual story to find? Making me have to use actual real crafting techniques to make things? Absolutely neat!  I even liked the neat player character models! I was having a great time! Right up until I was dying to wolves. At which point I was no longer having a great time. I wasn't playing the game any more. I was dying to wolves instead. 

The new player experience, at least for myself, was as such:
Spawn in forest. Get through it, find grassy plains. Knap stone. Find clay. Make a flint spear. Hunt a boar, barely kill it. Make a dirt home to get through the night. Cook meat. Leave home. Barely kill the drifters that are there. Wonder what these are, why they are there, think about what other interesting things I might learn and do. Wonder what that growling noise was. Die to the wolf I didn't see. 
Respawn. Try to get back to dirt home. Hear growling noise. Die to the wolf I didn't see.
Respawn. Try to get back to dirt home. Go different way. Hear growling noise. Die to the wolf I didn't see.
This happened four more times. I then quit.

Let's be real; This isn't really a thing I can learn from, is it? I didn't really learn any ways to detect the wolves. They might as well be traps in a kaizo style mario world mod. If a wolf detects me, I'm just going to die now. The wolves do not seem to stop chasing me, and learning a way to make them slow down or lose me isn't really happening either. I cannot learn how to craft an item that will make the wolves stop chasing me, or that I can use to defend myself with them consistently, or defend my meek naked body from them. I do not have any means to make the wolves stop killing me.

And despite that, I do not fear the wolves. One fears the unknown. I know what It's like to be killed by wolves. I have gone into detail on that. To me, the wolves are just the "aw for crying out loud, now I have to be in that damn forest again" part of the game. They're the things that bite me until I'm back into the forest I have named Purgatory, But With Trees In It. These wolves are just a freaking drag, man. The tension of the game isn't that I'm afraid of losing progress, so much as afraid I cannot actually have fun doing any new things, because I'm back at that damn forest again, and will need to die several more times to leave it. The wolves are the fun police.

If I end up learning the cataclysm that destroyed previous civilizations was that The Wolves Are Too Hardcore, then, maybe, this will be acceptable. Otherwise, the wolves are too hardcore.

EDIT: Oh, my rank on these forums is wolf bait. I'm sure someone at the development team thinks they are very funny.

Edited by Mentha
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When I first started I was like Mentha, getting killed by wolves on an hourly basis. I learned to travel more cautiously until I reached the copper age. I started with Gambeson armor, which are great beginner's armor, until I managed to made full copper plate body armor. Boy let me tell you, took a pack of three wolves and only lost 7hp. F yeah!

 

I love playing this game at the wee hours of the morning. For the immersion perhaps. lol

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I'm fairly new to VS, about 24 hours in on my first playthrough. The biggest issue for me with wolves has been how quickly they reproduce. I get that they're aggressive for story reasons, but - I settled near a forest that (initially) seemed wolf-free. The first four nights in my little dirt hut, no howls at all. Fifth night, I hear a howl in the distance, and the next day I run into a wolf living in the hills near my house. 7th day, and now there's 2 in the hills, as well as 2 camped out near my clay deposit. Each day, there's more and more wolves, even though I make sure to lure and kill as many as I can whenever I'm out collecting supplies. Closing in on the beginning of September now, and there's 2 wolves near my clay, 3 in the hills to the east, 3 to the west, who knows how many in the forest, and at least 3 or 4 that I have to dodge when I'm taking the long way around the forest to avoid the wolves within it. No matter how many I kill, there are more and more every day - I can't keep up with it. I never would have settled in here if I knew there were wolves nearby, but for the first 4 days there weren't even any signs that there *were* wolves, I only found out until I had already set up camp and crops.

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Just as an example, from my play session last night I walked around near an old native copper mine from about 3 in-game days earlier. I heard a growl and sprinted away, but nothing followed - I crept back, and inside of this pit, over the course of just 3 nights, there were 5 wolves just chilling. I pillared up and launched 10 or so spears into the pit and killed 4 of them, one ran away and I lost him. It's like this every time I leave my house - whole packs of wolves just everywhere. Each of the large skeletons in the screenshot is a wolf skeleton.image.thumb.png.146bb2204c67e183246d59730a6eda23.png

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