Gisbert

I'm giving an update because I've driven so many people crazy here. Thanks for the tips, everyone. Unfortunately, I had less time to play last week due to real life work, which is why it took so long. I did a little pottery, but the copper progress chain—guys, no. Simply no. You have to understand, I really dislike this modern “congratulations, you've successfully logged into the main menu. Here's your cookie—*pat on the shoulder*—(82% of all players have also achieved this success.)”... I usually like to “work” in games. And I like to grind - a lot. But Vintage Story doesn't feel like the usual “work” in games for me. For me, work somehow requires a... reward? Dunno, but playing VS feels less like a "vintage story" and more like “voluntary slavery”. And I'm not really into quarries. You chop, you shovel, you sort, and in the end you have... well, a pile of rocks. Without that famous “I did it!” moment. More like a feeling of, “200 more lumps of clay, then I can build a furnace. Maybe.” I'm trying to explain it, but I think this feeling arises because - progression is hardly emotionally packaged – you work hard, but the reward curve seems puny. - the mechanics are realistic, but not playful – drying grain, firing clay, searching for metals → sounds nice, but plays like a work assignment from a medieval internship. - the atmosphere is cold – where games like Valheim and Zomboid shine with atmosphere, VS feels like a gray geology lecture with a pickaxe. Before people start thinking I'm trolling again—that's my take on it. It's subjective. I'll just leave this here, not because I want to screw someone over, but for someone who also wants to buy/play and thinks similar, or this helps him, or whatever... a developer who takes it to heart? Maybe. But maybe/and/or perhaps I am just an exception. Or maybe it's like with Valheim and the devs don't give a shit anyway. I don't mean that in a bad way; I even think it's a good simulator. It's just not really a game for me. Quarry? Exactly that. The title makes me an unpaid miner. I guessed the stone striking beforehand, but "unpaid" is the problem. And if this bothers you at the beginning, it doesn't get any better as you go along—on the contrary, the workload grows with every “step forward.” I know I haven't seen that much yet, but I can read the developer's handwriting here. Yes, I enjoy working in games, but I don't want to feel like I'm being "forced" to work. I don't want to be whipped and end up hating myself for not enjoying the whip. If you ask me, the packaging should say “simulator”. And that's also the only and final point of criticism that annoys me a little and allows me to accuse VS of “advertising itself as something different”. At least for me, it wasn't obvious what was actually in this box. The trailer and stuff are a bit misleading, and it takes a long time playing to figure this out. I was thinking to buy and play more of a "survival game", but it isn't. I couldn't convince my friends either. Maybe I would have gotten a little more involved, but of course I can't say that now. So I don't think I'll play the game again or come back here. So much for my personal little vintage story. Ultimately, we are all gamers – there's no reason to be sad as long as you at least tried. Thanks anyway for the encouragement. Best regards/

Explain to me where I offended you? If losing wasn't ‘painful’ for you, my comment about ‘losers’ would hardly cause you any pain. The only thing you've proven to yourself is that you lied to yourself with your post. But really, I may be blunt with my opinion, but I'm definitely not a troll and I definitely didn't want to offend anyone. When I say ‘with all due respect’, I mean it.

Thank you! Very well observed. Failure causes pain. (Sure, others may have a different inhibition threshold for ‘pain’.) Our biological imperative causes this and since we are all human beings here, anything else is self-deception. That's not a judgement either, it's simply reality. I'm not sure I understand exactly what you're getting at here. But I don't think it's a cultural ‘problem’. I don't even think it's a ‘problem’ at all. Winning is awesome. Profiting enriches you, and losing sucks. That's life. Denying the biological imperative is like denying reality. You don't argue with the breathalyser about whether it's biased and whether you feel ‘drunk’ yet. It doesn't really care how you feel. You used to be just as drunk, it's just that back then you were still allowed to drive home drunk until a law was passed. Your alcohol level after four beers has remained the same, but your perception has changed because you have become accustomed to it and the law prohibits you from driving today. There are constants and variables. Failure = pain is a constant as long as you are human. Yeah already clarified this one page ago, but thank you. This was another very informative, honest and helpful post. Thank you.

With all due respect, that sounds to me like a story that losers tell themselves because they don't stand a chance. The RPG argument is unfounded because “surviving” or "being the strongest" is not necessarily the goal there. Many role-players deliberately play the part of the simpleton. For them, that is "winning". What you mean is that winning and losing are different for different people depending on their goals they try to achieve, but no one enjoys "losing" itself. No one likes failing to achieve the goals they set for themselves in try hard mode. That would be like claiming that pain doesn't hurt.

Seems legit. As a Valheim veteran, I can sign that. However, “holding hands” in general is a bit of an exaggeration, because Valheim is already very rough from the swamp onwards. Valheim has roughly the same level of difficulty as “Gothic,” which is almost “unplayable” for most people by today's standards. I would say that everything up to the swamp region is a tutorial in Valheim. VS is much easier mechanically. But macro knowledge -> holy moly, VS is on a whole other level of realism. VS is a simulation, not a game. That was just a metaphor for “game mechanics/knowledge”. I'm really fine with homo sapiens mode now (tried another session yesterday). I'll take it at my own pace, but probably I play with my girlfriend standard mode in future (she likes lore and discovering things very much).

I would generally say that all these games are by and for people with kind of ADHD/autistic tendencies/tendencies towards self-destructive behaviour and/or... ‘Normal’ people don't sit at home and play Zomboid for 2,000 hours. But I don't like the use of the term “normal” in general and the stigmatisation of ‘alternatives’ like me. But seriously, which ‘Bobby Brown’ plays VS? The cool kids from school are lining up for their 100th reissue of Battlefield and are happy with the same boring game design once again, paying 100 dollors for collectors box, no offence. What I'm trying to say is that these (our loved sadistic games) are designed to frustrate/challenge you, and the target audience (we) like that, but at the same time, they reward you for improving.It doesn't work any other way, but ultimately the player rewards themselves and doesn't receive any reward for free from the game, because the game punishes him for this kind of playstyle. The problem I (as a new player) had (and still have) with VS and what I didn't understand myself at first is not that I couldn't abstract from this gamedesign, but that VS requires too much information to enjoy the standard frustration/grind - to begin with, at least compared to the other games listed and at least for me. As a non-VS player, as a non-survival freak, as a non-cooking fanatic, etc. Compared to Zomboid/Valheim/Banished, and whatever else (it doesn't have to be survival), this game requires a horrendous amount of insider knowledge about itself and how to play it until it makes you feel fun while playing, and it doesn't shy away from rubbing it in the player's face. That's a different kind of frustration. But I'm not a game designer, I can only say how I feel. Maybe this helps someone else to make a decision. edit: If you ask me, a game shouldn't require you to learn so much vocabulary that you can barely start to understand the main menu in order to make basic settings. That's not fun - That's not even playing. But that's exactly how VS feels. Once you speak the language, however, that hurdle is overcome and you can really ‘play’ and enjoy. You can start enjoy dying to a wolf, because now you know what to do. Valheim and Co. does NOT have this problem. Not even close to this extent.

In fact, I turned Hugin off completely. I would prefere a Valheim without most of that "mystical" stuff - but that's personal taste. So somehow yes. That's not the problem with VS for me.

I think it's because I'm a very "mechanical" player. If you dislike the combat system in Valheim, the game is nothing for you. If you are interested, I can give you some very good tips for Valheim and for enjoying Valheim more. Also this quote from LadyWYT is a "sign" for me that we are talking about 2 different games/genres and feelings of enjoyment they deliver. Because Vintage Story isn't just a "more extreme survival game". If that were the case, VS players shouldn't have any problems with Valheim at all. Topic Update: I did it in the last try! I had fun for about the last hour yesterday, then I had to log off. I created a situation for myself where I had my fire, enough food in my inventory, and an area full of reeds to harvest. And for the first time, I was able to relax and somehow felt no “pressure” or missing information while doing anything else, so I could enjoy the grind of harvesting the reeds/wood/collect some food and watch my cozy little fire burning. The tip about the reed roots (as food) was also worth -> its weight in gold. I felt somewhat cozy to be the first human doing his first stuff and finally enjoyed that I PLAY the game. The problem I see in VS is that you need too much information to simply have fun and “let yourself go.” I'm not talking about QoL information stuff which add a bonus to your enjoyment, but about prerequisites for enjoying the game in the first place. Simply put, you need too much prior knowledge for VS. Project Zomboid as counterexample of how to do things. Zomboid is also ultra complex, but you can enjoy the game "nearly" right from the start. I'm not talking about the "standard frustration", because all these games are frustrating/difficult to a certain extent. And now it continues... I still have no idea about the clay stuff and I'm already dreading hearing “rotate fields.” I think that's something VS could definitely improve on. But I'm not a game designer, I can only describe what I think. I'll definitely keep the game and see how long it takes me to get into it. The only thing that mattered to me was whether I could get into it at all.

Yeah, I will start marking things when I once I have my basic needs somewhat under control and maybe a small shelter from which I can routinely explore. This time I can't find any reeds to make inventory to proceed... Admittedly, there are at least some berry bushes here. Finally! But also many wolves. I mean, I'm not deliberately acting stupid. I've just outplayed several wolves and am really trying to find my stuff. Can mushrooms be cooked over the fire pit? Can bags be made from something other than reed? If not, what do I do when night falls?

You don't have to be respectful, I'm obviously too stupid for this game and it's driving me crazy. Really, I hate myself at the moment. My hunger bar was so low that I had to attack a wild boar - the only animal that didn't run away, but it had 2 buddys. I killed two of them, but the last one got me. But damn this whole area was so empty in terms of "edibles"... Are consumable that rare? Are you hunting every animal you came across? Or are you skipping some food completely? What you guys eat the first hours? What can you collect that doesn't cost you more to find it than it fills afterwards? I'll try one last run and hope for a better spawn. I'd like to have managed to mine clay at least once.

I've reached a point again where I don't know how to proceed. I followed the tips and started “normally,” manually turning off lore and the time stuff. I tried to make inventory first (very difficult in a rocky desert). Okay, I now have a map, but doesn't make any difference at first glance. I spent the first hour trying to find anything at all because I spawned in the middle of this rocky desert. I organazied the spawn bed mod before, just in case for less frustration if I die and to skip nights while searching a place. I found some berry bushes and mushrooms along the way, made a few tools, got some wood, and, most importantly this time, an inventory. I had to walk very far to get to water. I managed to catch two fish, but everything till this point was so incredibly tedious. It took me an hour and it feels like I haven't achieved anything yet -> nothing. It feels devastating. I don't feel rewarded for something I did. No more food, and now it's night again (skipping will cost food again) and somehow I don't know how to proceed. There are barely animals far and wide. Okay, I saw two groundhogs, but somehow I can't hit them with the spear. They are fast. The fish filled my hunger bar less than mushrooms. I consume more than I harvest (see attached) I'm not feeling any fun yet. I need a short break now, then I'll try to continue somehow, but I'm not really motivated. I haven't even seen any clay yet, but first I don't know what to eat.

This was in fact a very useful post. The reason for the chosen game mode, for those who are interested: actually, I just don't like the setting. I like medieval and low/mid fantasy stuff, but not this “former high culture”/"technology" or “horror” stuff. I don't want that mix. I also disliked the introduction of magic in Valheim (introduced in Mistlands), but that's another story. So it's a purely trivial reason. I wanted to try VS, but the setting always put me off. And just a few weeks ago, I heard that there's a mode that doesn't have any of that. “You are the first human” was the final selling point for me.

That's interesting, because logically speaking, you have fewer “challenges” in homo sapiens mode? I thought I was already playing in easy/chill mode with this preset. Your story was exciting to hear, but it doesn't help me at all, because I am as far away from that as the Milky Way is from the Andromeda galaxy. What's more, this statement "VS is not punishing" makes me think that we're playing two different games or I'm really doing something wrong, because that's just an assertion at this point. Example: Valheim and Zomboid. I was frustrated with both of these games at first, but I still couldn't stop playing. It was like an addiction even the first steps. But with VS, the opposite is true. I would say that VS is by far the hardest and punishing game I've ever played (at least start without any prior knowledge). Zomboid, on the other hand, is not that punishing - I see worlds between them. OR I'm doing something seriously wrong. OR it's just not my cup of tea and I can't cope with the extremely realistic/detailed game design. I'm starting to think that realism isn't necessarily “fun” from a gameplay perspective, at least for me. I'm also not particularly interested in “survival” in real life. Maybe that has something to do with it. It's enough to know roughly how something works in an abstract principle, but I would never dream of wanting to know/or even try in detail how to make fire as long as I have a lighter in my pocket.

Self-flagellation is no fun for me. But surely you didn't mean the process of failure per se, but rather the resulting improvement that comes from it. I mean... you're talking to someone who has sunk 2,600 hours into Valheim and 1,000 into Project Zomboid. And I enjoyed it to fail for reasons of success competence. That's why I'm surprised I can't get into VS. The problem I have at the moment ist that progress in VS is a slow processviscosity experience - even the most mundane tasks (building a furnace, securing grain, preparing food) require meticulous preparation. You fail = reset to zero. Even Zomboid seems almost fast pace in comparison. It's almost fun to start over again, but in VS, crafting bags again is repetitive and not "really" enjoyable. I love the early game in Zomboid/Valheim the most. That's why the difference seems so stark in Valheim, after just an hour, you already feel like you're part of a mythical story. In Vintage Story, after an hour, you feel like even your Neanderthal great-great-great-uncle was better at it than you are. The game, with all its mechanics and the H key, and the way it is designed, makes me feel like a useless piece of trash. And I don't know if I want to play a game that makes me punish this way. But somehow, when I watch the trailer and consider everything I've seen so far, I don't think that's what the developer had in mind. I think I'm using it incorrectly or I'm doing something wrong, or it does really take 50 hours before you can enjoy the game... Honestly, I have no idea. Right now, I don't know if it's worth going deeper down the rabbit hole.

First of all, this isn't a rant; I'm really more angry at myself for not being able to love the game as much as I thought I would before buying it. I'm angry that I can't have the fun I thought these little tricky mechanics would give me. In addition, one must immediately praise/mention how smoothly the game runs and how it looks in general. It's a love letter and, at the same time, an indictment of the entire gaming industry when you see what is possible and how incompetent huge studios look in direct comparison. And that is a fact, not a matter of opinion. Back to topic: I’d consider myself a veteran of Valheim with over 2,600 hours in – and I’m exactly the type of player who usually begs for more challenge, more depth, less QoL hand-holding. In Valheim I used to "look down" at people complaining that the game was too harsh or too unfriendly, and I thought: “Bring me more resistance, more simulation, I want to suffer.” Well. Here I am in Vintage Story – and now I hate myself for suddenly standing on the other side. Preliminary information: I play Homo Sapiens mode because I find the setting around the lore unappealing and I'm mainly interested in the survival elements. Vanilla without mods and no changes to the game mode -> besides from balancing the way the developer intended (or at least one of the possible ways). The most important selling point for me was the presence of Homo sapiens mode. The problem now for me isn’t that Vintage Story has “more depth.” It’s that it has - above all - more hurdles. In Valheim, you die heroically because you ran into a troll unprepared. In Vintage Story, you starve because you couldn’t find berries for three days, or your carrots rotted away. In Valheim, frustration is the spice of the game. In Vintage Story, frustration often feels like the main course. Valheim punishes recklessness, but you always understand why. Vintage Story punishes… well, everything, and doesn’t bother explaining much. I’m not asking for “casualization” – but there’s a clear difference between depth and drudgery. Valheim serves the former elegantly. Vintage Story too often confuses it with the latter. Instead of a mythic survival saga, I sometimes feel like an unpaid intern in a survival bureaucracy simulator. To the H-Key/Beginner-Key: As a beginner, I also find it awful to have to press the H key after every single step. I'd like to discover more for myself (from a game flow perspective) rather than being led by the hand so blatantly by a button. I just don't think it's a good game design decision. Once again, you have to imagine that I'm not slow on the uptake, but dive blindly into the game and try to enjoy it. The self-awareness I'm currently experiencing is simply that “depth” and “hardship” are not the same thing. Maybe it is entirely possible to love hardcore systems - as long as they do not treat the player like an unpaid intern. I don't feel being inconsistent, but more starting to believe that “more realism” and “more fun” are two completely different things. I myself don't yet see which alloy Vintage Story actually wanted to forge for me. So here’s my question to the community: Am I missing something? Are there sweet spots, tricks, or mods/settings that help unlock the actual fun here? Or is the hard truth simply: “Vintage Story is designed to be relentlessly unyielding – and not everyone is made for it”? I’m torn between “powering through” and “just admitting this alloy isn’t for me and get my refund.” Would love to hear honest takes.