tiggerbiggo

I'm pretty neurodivergent actually. "I'm getting so fed up with people assuming they know what I think and how I feel about this when their assumptions are WRONG" Sounds like you need to make less assumptions yourself. You assumed my intentions were bad and conveniently also, after I made it clear that I don't want their life to be ruined you just left that alone and didn't address it. The whole having your cake and eating it. You want to be able to accuse my position of being hyperbolic, or wanting things I don't, then you don't want to acknowledge that and back down, instead choosing to call the things you don't address just not worth it.

You deliberately avoided engaging with my arguments because apparently they weren't worth addressing; "Because the rest of your post is just you reading between the lines stuff I didn't say and never meant, so the rest of your comment isn't even worth responding to. You know the saying, "Never play chess with a pigeon..."" Said in reply pointing to a post filled with nothing but arguments I stand by and were directly relevant to the topic despite your insistence they aren't. You use the "have my cake and eat it" strategy of arguing. Ignore things you can't address, later say they weren't worth arguing with anyway, start personal attacks for no reason, then downplay the severity of said attacks later because "You chose to read it the other way by being emotional about it.". Mighty convenient how you get to just act like I said nothing of worth as if ignoring what I said makes you right.

Mayeb you could have listened from the start instead of immediately deciding that I literally want someone to die. And you talk as if you're the reasonable one here... You started out by mocking me, and then compare me to a child because you wouldn't simply argue properly.

Great, of all the people here you've been the least respectful to me, and now this? Nobody else has spoken to me like you have, so glad you don't speak for the studio. Incredibly disrespectful to someone who just has a different opinion. I tried to detail my thought process to you as succinctly as possible, and now you're effectively comparing me to a child even though i'm now more on-side with the approach the studio is taking? What a joke. At least the other people here engaged with my arguments in good faith instead of trying to make out like I wanted someone to literally be dragged through glass. I bet you'll claim that was just an analogy, right? You were the one arguing with me in bad faith the whole time, and you're doing the studio a disservice by acting this way. It's pretty disgusting someone that claims to be on the studio's side is throwing so much vinegar.

I said it a lot because nobody ended up addressing it, but Teh Pizza Lady ended up addressing it in one of their replies and i'm happy with the outcome of that. I do need to communicate something to everyone here since it's something only someone on my side of the debate would be able to tell you; Anego, at least in my case, gave me a full refund while MAINTAINING GAME ACCESS. That's something I completely didn't expect, I don't know of any precedent for that kind of show of good faith from any game company ever. It also shows me that the company as a whole isn't taking the approach that their communications may give off to those of us who are angry about this, which makes me think they really need to hire someone who knows PR well, understands how to communicate what the people who are upset need to hear. I still won't be playing the game for the reasons I already stated in this thread, but for 2 reasons I immediately repurchased a license; 1. I don't feel like I can stay silent about the refund situation as above, the community deserves to know about those actions from someone else since if the company tries to tell people this is what they have done, it could come across as dismissive or otherwise people might not believe / trust them, so I wanted to say it here in the forums so people have that as a fact they can communicate to others. 2. The unprecedented nature of the refund proves that they are taking this situation more seriously than I gave them credit for, and I don't think it's fair for me to reject their show of good faith. The devs were literally going to let me keep playing for free. That's not something i've heard of any other game company doing, ever.

My company isn't a bad one, i'd expect to be fired at any organisation for doing something like that. So we agree the line was crossed, but not on the consequences. That's conversational progress at least. And no, I haven't read every single message you've sent in these threads, I don't normally use forums like this so I get a bit blinded by the whole paging thing, i'm used to threads. I should extend that same thing to you and the other people here honestly. Ok, and thank you for understanding my position at least somewhat. I want the standard to be applied equally, and to me it's kind of the same principle that the law applies (not that this is a legal issue for reasons that have already been stated), that to me, ignorance of the rules is not an excuse, especially when the rules exist for a reason. The way I see it, Malt should have known that it was wrong in advance, for many reasons. You don't get to dodge a speeding ticket because you don't know the area, even if nobody gets hurt. And regarding the final paragraph, losing a job does potentially have the ability to ruin someone's life, yes. But, the thing I want to communicate is that I don't specifically want that for him, even though I don't really like him. If it was up to me losing a job wouldn't leave someone without the ability to pay rent, buy food, have basic human experiences with others but that's not the reality. So I do understand why you're saying that since it does mean the possibility of their life being ruined if things go badly. But, when I put myself in that same position, if my life was ruined as a result, i'd be thinking "Yeah, that was my fault." I know you don't have to believe that, but I believe I would hold myself accountable if I lost my job to this same scenario, because i'd have known the entire time that it was a risk. I don't need you to agree with me, just understand that i'm trying to put myself in that position and actually advocating for my own hypothetical life to be at risk because I disagree with the morality of doing this so hard. And ultimately the decision will be made without my say-so, and me arguing here is kinda just me coping at something I can't control. I do hope you can see that i'm not arguing in bad faith though, and I do understand why it comes across that way.

Don't worry about the fact that you can't actually point to any of my supposed hyperbole and just keep making assertions that I specifically want to ruin his life...

You have, multiple times. You've tried to say that I want him to literally die. You've tried to conflate wanting more to be done with wanting his life ruined. You've refused to engage with my arguments saying that it's not worth arguing with me without even saying why. I'll stop making my point when something changes.

Personal forgiveness and professional standards aren't the same thing. If Tyrion and Malt have a good relationship behind the scenes forgiveness is entirely understandable. But even if my manager / my friends at the company forgive me for it personally, i'd still be fired. Their personal feelings wouldn't be enough to stop that. I know you love this game, but as (I assume) a non-coder, maybe it's just hard to communicate how clear the line is in this case, and how far it's been crossed. But the line is very clear, and it has been crossed.

Even if Malt leaves eventually i'll come back so long as there aren't any issues with what they have done in that time. I can understand if you all want to keep playing. I think if you notice from what i've said none of it has been directed towards people who just want to keep playing. My anger comes from people trying to downplay it. The thing is, you still have a game that your moral framework allows you to play. You don't have a problem with the state of things, but given how things are I can't play the game right now while staying true to what I believe. And hopefully you can see why being told i'm arguing in bad faith by a certain other user here is frustrating me even more...

Again, you aren't taking what i'm saying at face value. "Maltiez is removed from any code development role going forward" Read that. I don't care if he's still working there in a non coding role. I don't want to run his code on my machine. And again, the thing you won't address, I WOULD BE FIRED FOR DOING THIS, so would any other developer in any other part of the programming world. You going to address that? If you really think i'm arguing in bad faith, just remember that last point. I'm angry because standards are being applied unequally, and Malt's actions, as much as you want to excuse them, are inexcusable. That doesn't mean they are a horrible bad person who should rot in jail, as if I should even need to clarify that. But the current consequences not being good enough for me to be OK with the situation, and me not also wanting him to literally die doesn't seem to be something you can handle holding in your mind at once... It seems to you either i'm ok with the current situation or I want him to go to hell. You're not arguing with me in good faith if that's your line. "You've already requested a refund. Why are you still here?" Because as I said it hasn't been processed yet, and I was clear in my message to support that I would be happy to keep my account if Malt is removed, so i'm awaiting a decision and engaging with a topic that means a lot to me in this present moment because I really like Vintage and don't want to have to say goodbye.

Yes because i've been making the point that I am held to higher standards than Malt, both to point out why this upsets me so much and also because IT'S TRUE. Nobody has addressed it, and i'm starting to think it's because nobody wants to believe that what they did is severe enough to warrant any further action being taken, which is up to your opinion but do you see how what i'm actually saying and the strawman that's being put up around it don't remotely match?

When did I once say that I want anyone to rot in jail? And you won't talk about my arguments so all you're doing is stirring the pot for no reason. I don't care if some random person you've argued with wants some arbitrary hateful consequence. If you really think my criteria (refund or Malt's removal) remotely equate to any of the things you've levelled at me, then I don't know what to say.

See, again. I've mentioned multiple times what i'd be happy with and you're not taking what i'm saying at face value. I will be happy in any of the following scenarios: 1. I get a refund (Which hasn't happened yet, hence my engagement here in the hopes that one of the other 2 decisions are made instead) 2. Maltiez is removed from any code development role going forward 3. Maltiez shows any degree of understanding or remorse showing that they understand what they did wrong and why their code is malicious I don't want anyone to rot in jail, I don't want anyone dragged through broken glass. That's just more hyperbole.

When you have people like teh pizza lady outright trying to claim that detractors want to see him rot in jail, completely ignoring real arguments? Astro turfing or no, you're defending the indefensible. Third (fourth?) time's the charm? If I or any of my colleagues did this, we'd be fired, why is this any different?

The information that's been given in their responses comes across as dismissal simply because they have so much of a focus on talking about how the code attempted to only target certain mods. It hasn't talked about the capacity for the mod to interfere with unreleased in development mods, and its focus on downplaying the impact isn't what people want nor is it really relevant. They are trying to cover themselves rather than do the right thing.

Honestly you guys would be a great team to hire to astroturf for me if I ever have a "lapse in judgement" and publish malware to public mod sites, you're great at downplaying the severity of bad actors. It's actually concerning how many of the takes in here don't see the clear line that's been crossed and want to try to push the narrative that anyone who has a problem with this is just out for blood. And nobody has anything to say about the fact that most programmers hold themselves to higher standards than what's been shown here. This black mark isn't going away.

I'll be satisfied if he's removed from any development role. Acting like literally anyone wants him to rot in jail is hyperbole.

So you won't respond to me? Ok i guess, not sure why you even quoted me in the first place then if i'm not worth arguing with. Not even a thing about the whole fact that i'd be fired if I did the same thing Malt did?

1. The patterns of malicious behaviour shown by Malt are well established as bad, this isn't me or anyone else making up the severity of the actions they took, and their attitude after the fact. 2. If the company knows about it, then they are responsible for deciding whether hiring them is a good idea. A company is not responsible for things they don't reasonably have the ability to confirm, like for example "every his bullshit from the moment he was born" - Nobody cares about the details of their personal life, their decision to release malware into a public dependency is public information that the company knows. Again, I'd be fired for doing this. 3. A refund will satisfy me enough to leave and never come back. I've said that before, but I appreciate this thread is long so i'll repeat it. If I get a refund, and the devs want to keep Malt on, i'll leave you all alone. I'd much rather be able to trust the dev team and keep playing an awesome game, but if they insist on keeping a bad actor, i'm not going to stay. 4. Genuinely don't understand what you mean here. And again with putting malware in quotes... As if that makes it not what happened. If this is damaging the game for you, I suggest you wait until it settles down, because either they stay the course and give people refunds in which case us spooky naysayers will be gone eventually, or the backlash gets bad enough for them to finally do something.

Yep, if they ever reverse course i'm right back in because this game is just better than minecraft imo which is why it's so upsetting to see them taking this path...

Thanks for adding this, but the response is so disappointing... This still doesn't include mod developers in the story, and trying to distance themselves from Malt while still keeping them employed seems to be their answer. As much as I love this game, i'm taking my refund and running far, far away from this dumpster fire. The way this reads is; 1. You're overreacting, this never really affected anyone 2. Don't attach what one of our employees said to our company, please 3. Don't like it? Leave.

So first, yes, what he did before he was on the payroll does matter, and your analogy isn't sensible. This is more like someone hiding laxatives in the food at an old people's home after one of the residents upsets him somehow, then never being allowed to work in healthcare again (Which would absolutely happen if someone did that), it wouldn't even need to hurt or kill anyone, it wouldn't even need to be laxatives. And since you wouldn't respond to me elsewhere making this exact argument, *I would be fired from my job if I did exactly what maltiez did*, that's not even disputable. So why should Malt get a free pass when any other dev in any other part of the software industry would be blacklisted over this, or at least need to hide it from any future employers? And yeah, the cheat mod went away. Afaik nothing about the game itself has changed to make those cheats harder to detect or stop, so there's precisely 0 reason these cheats won't come up again if another dev decides to start it back up again. Malt's actions were largely ineffective at actually making the game more robust to cheating and all they did was make people quite rightly distrust them. "And then put it back to spite certain people" - And you somehow think this is acceptable? That this doesn't show a complete disdain for the community as a whole? It's sad that you're defending this at all, funny thing how the people defending these actions don't seem to understand software development, and the ones who are actually making the arguments that matter are devs... Maybe don't assume you know what you're talking about and listen to those who are looking at this and thinking the same as me. If I did that i'd be fired.

It doesn't matter what Maltiez would or would not do. This is about whether the community can trust the approach and attitude of the development team. As far as I see it, the actions we know of which are concretely defined and not speculation, are inexcusable. There was no reason for him to treat the community that way, so having him on the team now is an unavoidable black mark. That's why I use the term "bad actor", because this kind of behaviour points to a mindset that he has. That it's ok to act this way if his intentions are pure. I will admit i've only been playing vintage for a few months, but as far as I knew their reputation was pretty much immaculate before all this. I'd heard nothing but good things from everyone I talked about it to. Malt has almost singlehandedly destroyed a big chunk of that, the remedy is clear.

Just to be clear, it's malware if it caused harm or not (Putting the word in quotes doesn't make it false), and the intention doesn't matter. The number of victims also doesn't matter, even if it's zero. The problem I have with the situation is Maltiez' attitude and the behaviour proving they are a bad actor capable of breaking the rules because they think it has a greater good. I've said several times in this and other threads, I truly believe that if my company found out that i'd done something like this, i'd be fired. Even if it wasn't in their code, this would be gross misconduct and i'd be let go, or at the very least people wouldn't trust me any more. Their current course of action cements this event into policy, we now know that Anego as a whole cares more about maintaining their relationship with a bad actor than it does about its reputation and programming ethics. The fact they have tried to downplay the facts of the situation, still haven't addressed the rest of the community's concerns, and seem insistent on keeping this malicious developer on their team is pretty bad imo.