Add slots for tools

[Ambulate In Somnis]

Add slots for tools for fast switch between tool, weapon and free hands.

[Zelger]

1-9 keys exist. Oh almost forgot the scroll wheel as well 

[Ambulate In Somnis]

17 hours ago, Zelger said:

1-9 keys exist. Oh almost forgot the scroll wheel as well 

It's a mistake to think like that. the hotbar was copied from minecraft, although the constant shifting of items from the inventory to the slots was an interface error, and remains. We need a more logical division of the available items, otherwise why mix realism and complexity with the arcade of minecraft? It is much more convenient to place items in their slots so that your hands are free to manipulate the item outside the inventory or crafting.

I also want to note that it is more pleasant for a person to manipulate tools as a selected action. It's nicer to have instant access to a weapon if you've stuffed your hotbar with junk when you're being pounded on the back by a drifter or a tool when you need to refocus.
Attention is lost when you constantly switch to inventory and back, trying to get out of the uncomfortable interface. Stored items MUST also have their own convenient section.

In minecraft, the minus of the interface is easily balanced by the convenience and speed of working with the outside world. And in a vintage story, the world works differently.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ambulate In Somnis

[Ogi Teh yeti]

I'm not trying to be mean here but how exactly do you see that working out? Ok so lets add a slot specifically for melee weapons like oh the 1 key. How is that different from just making sure the 1 key has a melee weapon on it? I just can't imagine it being somehow different to add a specific key press for certain items over just the player figuring out where on the toolbar they want something to be which isn't all that far off from reality. Lets say my literal belt has space for a few things, so I put a knife, a quiver of arrows, a flashlight, a first aid kit and who knows what else. But now, I see someone who is hungry. My belt likely doesnt have the granola bar I have been carrying, it's in my bag, which I now am going to look through. Well, in vintage I have lots of stuff on my toolbar, but I have some slots that change a bit, all it means is when I need something thats rarely used I take a slight moment to swap out one of the off-slots for the new thing which is quite similar. It is this way for most games in this sort of genre, the only exceptions are games where they only have a small number of tools to use, and you unlock them as the game progresses so you're key press is only ever going to those specific things.

Again, I am not trying to be mean, perhaps I'm just not seeing what you're seeing but I simply don't have any idea for a way to make toolbar and inventory management any different or better by simply assigning a keypress to a specific item or type.

[Ambulate In Somnis]

2 hours ago, Ogi Teh yeti said:

I'm not trying to be mean here but how exactly do you see that working out? Ok so lets add a slot specifically for melee weapons like oh the 1 key. How is that different from just making sure the 1 key has a melee weapon on it? I just can't imagine it being somehow different to add a specific key press for certain items over just the player figuring out where on the toolbar they want something to be which isn't all that far off from reality. Lets say my literal belt has space for a few things, so I put a knife, a quiver of arrows, a flashlight, a first aid kit and who knows what else. But now, I see someone who is hungry. My belt likely doesnt have the granola bar I have been carrying, it's in my bag, which I now am going to look through. Well, in vintage I have lots of stuff on my toolbar, but I have some slots that change a bit, all it means is when I need something thats rarely used I take a slight moment to swap out one of the off-slots for the new thing which is quite similar. It is this way for most games in this sort of genre, the only exceptions are games where they only have a small number of tools to use, and you unlock them as the game progresses so you're key press is only ever going to those specific things.

Again, I am not trying to be mean, perhaps I'm just not seeing what you're seeing but I simply don't have any idea for a way to make toolbar and inventory management any different or better by simply assigning a keypress to a specific item or type.

Well, let's go. A separate slot for weapons can be assigned in the interface where the clothes are currently located. Why a separate key? Well, for example, when you click, you can see the animation of getting the blade, a separate weapon model on the character. In case of immediate danger, while you are busy moving garbage from the inventory in the mine, you can immediately get a weapon, for example, repel the attack (For example, the F key).
Tool slot - repetition like a weapon - a separate animation and possible effects for the character, since such things are easier to control and load the computer less, since you do not have to check each item in your hand each time (for example, the R key).
The rest of the inventory - if you want to use the treatment, or you want to share an important item (transfer from character to character without throwing it on the ground) - press a separate button.
If you want to look into the inventory - spin the mouse wheel, mini-icons with translucent textures will prompt you on the screen what you want to take from the inventory.
If you want to see the whole old-fashioned way - press E (you can add an animation of opening or taking out your backpack with a stylized menu, for example, small cubes of objects placed on mini-shelves inside a three-dimensional backpack, while the character looks inside the backpack (cubic version, like in the sons of the forest) and click one time to place in hands). Player wants to know what in inventory in more useful view what depends on humans association type of memory. 
At least player hadnt octopus hands to fast switch by keyboard on last slots. Wheel in case of hotbar useless to fast pick what you want and sometimes you scroll twice or triple cause you do it too fast.

This will also be compatible with realistic interfaces (settings - interface tab).
Every time I turn on this handy switch, my fingers start to ache from having to CONSTANTLY PRESS THE CONTROL SHIFT. CONSTANTLY CONFUSING ITEMS WHEN YOU WANT TO TRANSFER THEM TO HOTBAR IN A PACK by pressing shift + lkm. Painful

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ambulate In Somnis

[Thorfinn]

Those of us who have been playing for a while have no hotkeys left. We have macros for all the one-handed Ctrl-, Alt- and Shift- combinations and are working our way through the Ctrl-Alt- and Ctrl-Shift combinations. I haven't yet done any Shift-Alt; that's just too clunky. About all you could use are Shift-Alt-[zasx, maybe d]. Reaching beyond that is going to ge Shift-Alt-z or x in the mix most of the time anyway. 

I find realism to be a pretty weak justification. Just a single1m block of wood comes in around a quarter of a ton, dirt over a half ton, stone 3/4 or a ton or more, yet I have not yet seen anyone suggesting we should not be able carry any of those at all, let alone that the stack size should be reduced from 64 to a more realistic 1/4.

Now if you could put all your tools in one "slot", and it selects the one appropriate for what you are doing, sort of like Terraria's Smart Cursor, OK, I guess, so long as you could override that by specifically putting one of your tools into a hotbar slot and select that.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Ruyeex]

8 hours ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

It's a mistake to think like that. the hotbar was copied from minecraft, although the constant shifting of items from the inventory to the slots was an interface error, and remains. We need a more logical division of the available items, otherwise why mix realism and complexity with the arcade of minecraft? It is much more convenient to place items in their slots so that your hands are free to manipulate the item outside the inventory or crafting.

I also want to note that it is more pleasant for a person to manipulate tools as a selected action. It's nicer to have instant access to a weapon if you've stuffed your hotbar with junk when you're being pounded on the back by a drifter or a tool when you need to refocus.
Attention is lost when you constantly switch to inventory and back, trying to get out of the uncomfortable interface. Stored items MUST also have their own convenient section.

In minecraft, the minus of the interface is easily balanced by the convenience and speed of working with the outside world. And in a vintage story, the world works differently.

Better be a auto switch tool.

Takes me inspiration from outpath when there's a upgrade that automatically switches tools on different tasks instead of having a specific tool on a specific slot.

You just have to press the right mouse or the left button with the tools in your inventory to be versatile on breaking blocks and doing tasks. (This is where it gets tricky)

In VS should be always actived on settings.

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ruyeex

[Ambulate In Somnis]

7 minutes ago, Ruyeex said:

Better be a auto switch tool.

Takes me inspiration from outpath when there's a upgrade that automatically switches tools on different tasks instead of having a specific tool on a specific slot.

You just have to press the right mouse button with the tools in your inventory to be versatile on breaking blocks and doing tasks.

In VS should be always actived on settings.

I think the slot menu abstraction can be extended in this direction. But it seems to me that the vintage story will in the future be similar to Kingom Come Deliverance

[Ruyeex]

1 hour ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

I think the slot menu abstraction can be extended in this direction. But it seems to me that the vintage story will in the future be similar to Kingom Come Deliverance

Wdym?

[Ambulate In Somnis]

2 hours ago, Ruyeex said:

Wdym?

tool break system, some visual.  In this game, swords bend to the maximum. But most likely they will be stabbed or something, so that they can be restored later, but the health bar system will disappear, as will the dissolution of weapons into oblivion. I mean vector of vs so no need to take gigapaks of swords in backpack 

Edited March 20, 2023 by Ambulate In Somnis

[Zelger]

On 3/20/2023 at 10:28 AM, Ambulate In Somnis said:

It's a mistake to think like that. the hotbar was copied from minecraft, although the constant shifting of items from the inventory to the slots was an interface error, and remains. We need a more logical division of the available items, otherwise why mix realism and complexity with the arcade of minecraft? It is much more convenient to place items in their slots so that your hands are free to manipulate the item outside the inventory or crafting.

I also want to note that it is more pleasant for a person to manipulate tools as a selected action. It's nicer to have instant access to a weapon if you've stuffed your hotbar with junk when you're being pounded on the back by a drifter or a tool when you need to refocus.
Attention is lost when you constantly switch to inventory and back, trying to get out of the uncomfortable interface. Stored items MUST also have their own convenient section.

In minecraft, the minus of the interface is easily balanced by the convenience and speed of working with the outside world. And in a vintage story, the world works differently.

9 hotbar slots is plenty for all your most important tools / items.

[Ambulate In Somnis]

18 hours ago, Zelger said:

9 hotbar slots is plenty for all your most important tools / items.

Game UI/UX expert here

[Thorfinn]

I agree the wheel is sub-optimal, especially since if you have open slots anywhere, rolling fast past it tends to pick up the item from the last filled space before it.

But rather than an appeal to authority, (or mock others for what might be an appeal to authority, I can't really tell) what would you fill the 10 slots with? How do you see swapping tools off the paper doll without clunkiness?

The prime hotbar numbers are 1-4, just above your movement keys, so those spots get the prime tools, or blocks if you are building.  But I only carry things like scythe or shears or axe or shovel when I am on a mission for items that need those tools. Otherwise, they are on a toolrack on the outside of my house. Or even just leaning against the wall. Or as often happens, I leave a copper shovel at each type of clay deposit. That's where I'm using it next anyway. Axes stay out at my current lumber camp.

I digress. My point is I'm generally using a good share of the hotbar for just inventory, and most tools are only there on special occasions, knife and weapon the prime exceptions. What kind of a loadout are you envisioning? Most importantly, how do you envision swapping between, say, club and knife when you are gutting a fish, or skinning a brace of coney?

[Ambulate In Somnis]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

I agree the wheel is sub-optimal, especially since if you have open slots anywhere, rolling fast past it tends to pick up the item from the last filled space before it.

But rather than an appeal to authority, (or mock others for what might be an appeal to authority, I can't really tell) what would you fill the 10 slots with? How do you see swapping tools off the paper doll without clunkiness?

The prime hotbar numbers are 1-4, just above your movement keys, so those spots get the prime tools, or blocks if you are building.  But I only carry things like scythe or shears or axe or shovel when I am on a mission for items that need those tools. Otherwise, they are on a toolrack on the outside of my house. Or even just leaning against the wall. Or as often happens, I leave a copper shovel at each type of clay deposit. That's where I'm using it next anyway. Axes stay out at my current lumber camp.

I digress. My point is I'm generally using a good share of the hotbar for just inventory, and most tools are only there on special occasions, knife and weapon the prime exceptions. What kind of a loadout are you envisioning? Most importantly, how do you envision swapping between, say, club and knife when you are gutting a fish, or skinning a brace of coney?

I understand that it is so difficult to convey my idea that it is necessary to separate some things so that they are convenient, but not to notice an inconvenient interface that does not correlate with the main vector of the game's development and argue that an erroneous interface is the norm - well, if you please.
I explain again - to place the main shortcut keys for the main types of tools. The player should only iterate over collectable items that require attention in privacy or when crafting. The rest of the things should be accessible by one key. Some elements can be matched as a 2 - 3 element selection sub-element

[Yeetiee]

I do not know if it will help but hotkeys past numer 4-5 are a little useless as most often I use mouse wheel to browse there. 

Wouldn't it be better to have dedicated hotbar from 1 to 5 above the current slots?

I mean 1 to 5 are places dedicated for tools and weapons and the switch is easy using hotkeys and the rest slots are binded only to scroll? 

Hotbar could be unlocked by making appropriate item to be worn like a belt.

Edited March 22, 2023 by Yeetiee

[Ambulate In Somnis]

14 minutes ago, Yeetiee said:

I do not know if it will help but hotkeys past numer 4-5 are a little useless as most often I use mouse wheel to browse there. 

Wouldn't it be better to have dedicated hotbar from 1 to 5 above the current slots?

I mean 1 to 5 are places dedicated for tools and weapons and the switch is easy using hotkeys and the rest slots are binded only to scroll? 

Hotbar could be unlocked by making appropriate item to be worn like a belt.

Right thinking vector.

[Thorfinn]

29 minutes ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

The player should only iterate over collectable items that require attention in privacy or when crafting. The rest of the things should be accessible by one key.

Yeah, that's not going to work. I want to know how many reeds or sticks or grass or clay or... as I'm collecting. How could that not be important information to have real-time access to, if for no other reason to know when you are getting close to a full stack? For example, on Day 1, it is essential to know at a glance how many copper nuggets I have, as that will likely determine how I spend that first night. I choose which berry stack to eat depending on whether I can empty a stack. Resin, nah, it could be buried anywhere. Horsetails I need front and center. I want the right ratio of horsetail to reeds so I don't end up cluttering up inventory or throwing away horsetails. Etc.

37 minutes ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

I explain again - to place the main shortcut keys for the main types of tools.

You don't really need to explain again. Explaining the first time would probably be enough. Are you saying that hitting some hotkey would cycle through your available tools? All of them? So if I hit A (or whatever) when I'm out gathering logs, I'm going to rotate through knife, club, spear, axe, spear, axe, axe, axe, spear, axe, etc., depending on where those tools are in my inventory? That seems suboptimal...

42 minutes ago, Yeetiee said:

I do not know if it will help but hotkeys past numer 4-5 are a little useless as most often I use mouse wheel to browse there. 

Pretty slow and subject to problems when trying to get something else quickly, plus if you have an empty spot, it can cause issues where it picks up the item. I just remap slots [6-0] to Shift-[1-5]

[Ambulate In Somnis]

10 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Yeah, that's not going to work. I want to know how many reeds or sticks or grass or clay or... as I'm collecting. How could that not be important information to have real-time access to, if for no other reason to know when you are getting close to a full stack? For example, on Day 1, it is essential to know at a glance how many copper nuggets I have, as that will likely determine how I spend that first night. I choose which berry stack to eat depending on whether I can empty a stack. Resin, nah, it could be buried anywhere. Horsetails I need front and center. I want the right ratio of horsetail to reeds so I don't end up cluttering up inventory or throwing away horsetails. Etc.

You don't really need to explain again. Explaining the first time would probably be enough. Are you saying that hitting some hotkey would cycle through your available tools? All of them? So if I hit A (or whatever) when I'm out gathering logs, I'm going to rotate through knife, club, spear, axe, spear, axe, axe, axe, spear, axe, etc., depending on where those tools are in my inventory? That seems suboptimal...

Pretty slow and subject to problems when trying to get something else quickly, plus if you have an empty spot, it can cause issues where it picks up the item. I just remap slots [6-0] to Shift-[1-5]

Firstly, you must first create several slots in which you define your instruments, and secondly, place hotkeys on each slot of the instrument. There should be a quick option to leave hands empty, there should be a function to hand the item directly to the player. There should be a function to get the right tool immediately.
Second, iteration is a handy addition. You can simply scroll through your inventory with the mouse wheel.
If there are several subtypes of instruments and slots for them - iterate with several single keystrokes.

[Thorfinn]

24 minutes ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

Firstly, you must first create several slots in which you define your instruments, and secondly, place hotkeys on each slot of the instrument. There should be a quick option to leave hands empty, there should be a function to hand the item directly to the player. There should be a function to get the right tool immediately.

This already exists. Whatever tool you put in slot 1 is mapped to "1" by default. If that's not convenient, you can change that. With macros, you can even switch from scythe to holding shield and using your sword with one key.

 

24 minutes ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

Second, iteration is a handy addition. You can simply scroll through your inventory with the mouse wheel.

I guess. It would be OK for hand baskets, but would quickly become much more cumbersome as you get the bigger packs. You would kind of need to know roughly where in your backpack it is in order to know how fast to spin the wheel. But, yes, I can see this might be useful during construction, for instance, or relatively early planting of seeds. Later, when you are planting the entire field with the same crop, I don't see any advantage over the current hotbar.

 

24 minutes ago, Ambulate In Somnis said:

If there are several subtypes of instruments and slots for them - iterate with several single keystrokes.

This is the part you glossed over. Are you suggesting context-sensitive hotkeys? So if you press "C" when you have slot 1 selected, it does one thing, if you press "C" when you have slot 2 selected it does something else? In order to get whatever you currently assigned to just regular old "C" (say, mark copper on the map) you have to have none of the slots selected?

[EDIT]

Sorry if this sounds a little condescending, but it sounds as if you haven't really played the game very much. For example, "handing" something to another player is simply standing close to the player, and pressing Q. Ctrl-Q if you want to give him the entire stack. Remap that to whatever keys you like if that's not convenient.

[/EDIT]

Edited March 22, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

I'm not trying to be combative or argumentative. I genuinely want to hear what might be a better interface. So rather than generalization, let's go with a common example. I see a pond with 3 fish.

Currently, I would press "2" to select weapon, kill the fish, press "1" to select the knife, gut them, and, in 1.18, press "5" (or something that doesn't have durability) to break the bones loose, then I'm on my way. Very similar with rabbits. Press "2" to get the spear, kill one rabbit, and the interface puts another spear into 2, kill the other rabbit, press "1", walk past my spears to get one put back into inventory spot 2, skin the bunnies, and I'm back on my way.

How does your proposed interface improve on this? What game experience can we point to and say, "Yes. This is clearly more fun."

[EDIT]

Or if this interface would not help in this case, please post an example of a situation where it does. I'm just not seeing what improvement you are talking about.

[/EDIT]

Edited March 23, 2023 by Thorfinn

[Ambulate In Somnis]

18 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I'm not trying to be combative or argumentative. I genuinely want to hear what might be a better interface. So rather than generalization, let's go with a common example. I see a pond with 3 fish.

Currently, I would press "2" to select weapon, kill the fish, press "1" to select the knife, gut them, and, in 1.18, press "5" (or something that doesn't have durability) to break the bones loose, then I'm on my way. Very similar with rabbits. Press "2" to get the spear, kill one rabbit, and the interface puts another spear into 2, kill the other rabbit, press "1", walk past my spears to get one put back into inventory spot 2, skin the bunnies, and I'm back on my way.

How does your proposed interface improve on this? What game experience can we point to and say, "Yes. This is clearly more fun."

[EDIT]

Or if this interface would not help in this case, please post an example of a situation where it does. I'm just not seeing what improvement you are talking about.

[/EDIT]

Well, you don’t see, I can’t help you, I have already described all the solutions 3 times. I am not a parrot

[Thorfinn]

You explained putting a slot in the "C" window for weapons and another for tools, and assigning a hotkey to each of them, in your suggestion, "F" selects weapon, "R" selects tool. You can do that now. Put your weapon in slot 9, your tool in slot 0, bind "F" to 9, "R" to 0, and Bob's your uncle. Open inventory and bounce stuff around to your heart's content. So long as you don't move those last two items, you are good to go. If attacked, press Escape, "F", and click until either you or your foe is dead.

Literally the only difference between what I'm understanding your idea to be, and the current game, is that now the slots you put things is on the hotbar instead of your paper doll.

[Ambulate In Somnis]

On 3/25/2023 at 12:19 AM, Thorfinn said:

You explained putting a slot in the "C" window for weapons and another for tools, and assigning a hotkey to each of them, in your suggestion, "F" selects weapon, "R" selects tool. You can do that now. Put your weapon in slot 9, your tool in slot 0, bind "F" to 9, "R" to 0, and Bob's your uncle. Open inventory and bounce stuff around to your heart's content. So long as you don't move those last two items, you are good to go. If attacked, press Escape, "F", and click until either you or your foe is dead.

Literally the only difference between what I'm understanding your idea to be, and the current game, is that now the slots you put things is on the hotbar instead of your paper doll.

If api would allow me to do this, I would write myself and not sit and listen to narrow-minded couch critics without imagination. I finished

[Ruyeex]

I still think that my idea is much better.

[Thorfinn]

I give up, too. I just wasted nearly 3 hours watching a little over 5 hours of Let's Play Kingdom Come Deliverance at double speed, and I have absolutely no idea what that system is, let alone what your variant of it is. The closest I could guess is that because in one section, a sword could be placed in the lower left grid on the paper doll, maybe the rest of the weapons and maybe tools go in that same grid, and somehow scroll through them? Maybe that's what you meant by, "Some elements can be matched as a 2 - 3 element selection sub-element", but I have no idea how I was supposed to figure that out from what you said. When you say "right thinking vector", is that something like the idiom in English, "You are headed in the right direction?"

BTW, I'm not being critical of your language skills. Your English is a heck of a lot better than my grasp of your native language, no matter what that is. I'm just struggling to understand the concept you are trying to communicate.

It's also not that I'm being critical of your suggestion, because I'm pretty sure I have absolutely no idea what your suggestion is. I've tried a few guesses, which were apparently wrong, but I have no clue in what way they were incorrect. Rather than tell me how I misunderstood, you simply insulted my intentions.

 

 

Edited April 1, 2023 by Thorfinn