A bunch of players are joining the game following the Hytale announcement

[FlareUKCS]

I will say, and agree what Rudo there said... its often a good thing if the new player says hi and dies to a wolf or bear, it enforces this is not a easy game, nor is it a friendly game... I mean do we want a kid friendly game where we can build and do things like... that other block game, or are we here to have a challenge, hell kids probably kick my butt in this game.

I would be more straight here, I think it should be more difficult but in a more logical manner. As it is the challenge is related to how well you cull the local wolves and dealing with the new rift dudes, the boys are easy by the new boys are something new. I would love it if the devs had a look at our grey boys and went they are too easy, and compared to the new lot a bit lacking... not bad, just need a upgrade methinks. I love the boys but they need some love, some bling, heck we have mods to make them more... interesting.

[Shotai]

2 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

I don't think that's a fair assessment of me.

...Like an ad hominem fallacy.
...Well gee wilikers, no wonder you haven't addressed the arguments. You don't see em!

32 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

@Shotai ... you are adding the "drowning" part, and judging the game by a part you are adding. That's my take

 

18 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

This is wild to me. It's 100% the game's fault that people don't read. Did I fall into a rift? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

It is obvious. It was for me. As soon as I spawned, it was right there on my screen, saying to press a key to open the handbook.

Is the handbook supposed to slap the player in the face? If it becomes that obvious, it better deal damage.

1 hour ago, Rudometkin said:

Yes but surviving the wolf is the nuance you understand through learning.

.....Guys, can I say it without being wolfbaited?

Eh, I don't care.

.....Learning curve.

I'm not sure what's not accurate about what I said, I seem to have described you perfectly. As for why I haven't addressed your arguments?

You did not fall into a rift. You did not fall into the twilight zone. If it's obvious to you, it isn't obvious to everyone; I already went over how this is a frequently re-occuring issue that you have when interacting with people. I'm describing your behavior and why it isn't effective, I even explained to you that your ego is doing the talking; but it seems to feel threatened and is seeking shelter behind what you think is an attack. Meanwhile you've done nothing but act like a snot nosed brat since the beginning of our encounter; openly mocking anything I have to say and once the conversation breaks down you seem to want to make it my responsibility to address your arguments in a satisfactory manner.

I just. I have no words. You've done everything for me.

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

As for why I haven't addressed your arguments?

How about this argument? The main one I had for you:

Quote

To comment on this, a learning curve is not being thrown to wolves and told to "get over it". A learning curve is understanding the nuances of a game through the process of learning.

Quote

Yes but surviving the wolf is the nuance you understand through learning. All I did was show the logical conclusion that being thrown to a pack of wolves can be learning curve, by your own definition. Your definition says it can be part of the learning curve.

 

 

Quote

If it's obvious to you, it isn't obvious to everyone

So do you agree it is obvious?

That is, was obvious to me?

See, traugdor said the game should make it obvious to new players. And I'm saying it was obvious to me, a new player.

Do you agree with me that it is obvious to some players?

But also, just because something is obvious to me, does not necessarily mean it won't be obvious to someone else. Where do you get that logic? "It was obvious to Rudometkin, therefore, there necessarily will be another player who will not find it obvious". What? I sense more twilight zone. I don't understand how you got there.

 

Quote

I'm describing your behavior and why it isn't effective

Effective for what?

Effective is "having an effect". My behavior is not having an effect?

But you said my behavior is "probably why OP left the conversation to begin with". That would be an effect my behavior had on the OP. But you said it's not effective. You seem to be contradicting yourself and it is very confusing!

Quote

openly mocking anything I have to say

How can you think I'm openly mocking anything you have to say, when you don't even think I have read everything you said? This reveals your exaggeration. How much of your assessment of my character has been mere exaggeration on your end?

How about we be fair with each other and get along in a friendly manner?

Sigh. Guys, I don't know how much more forum exploring I can do at this rate. I keep running into ruins and very minimal traders.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Rudometkin

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

I'm not sure what's not accurate about what I said, I seem to have described you perfectly.

Sorry, I'm confused. It actually seems you haven't.

Quote

Hiding behind a Ben Shapiro act isn't really helping anybody aside from yourself.

What does it mean to "hide behind a Ben Shapiro act"? And did someone imply it was going to help anybody but myself? Or why did you bring that part up? I'm confused, sorry.

Quote

This conversation is about the emotional appeal to the game to new players that are coming to enjoy it. But you seem hellbent on reasurring yourself that you're right and everyone else must be wrong;

Or, I seem not! hellbent on reasurring myself that I'm right and everyone else must be wrong. But you seem hellbent on asserting it.

I think what you are doing is very unfair. You are coating your messages with "it seems", so you can pull them out of your back pocket like grains of sand. It's easy to attack someone with "it seems", and especially without backing it up. Just, "it seems". Huh, that's convenient.

I can just as easily say it seems the opposite. Now what?

Quote

which is probably why OP left the conversation to begin with.

Or probably not. Now what? See, you establish probability with......nothing. So you are establishing that it is fair for me to do the same.

Quote

You can't even afford the people you're downplaying and downtalking the time and decency to read through what they have to say;

Calm down. You don't know what I'm reading and not reading. What are you at my house now? It's very suspicious and convenient that you are placing yourself at my house in order to attack my character.

Quote

It always seems to be about you and your own experiences, at least from what you've exposed to the community to so far.

Or, it always seems the opposite.

Gee, I'd rather be wolfbaited than slandered so cheaply.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Rudometkin

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

Meanwhile you've done nothing but act like a snot nosed brat since the beginning of our encounter; openly mocking anything I have to say and once the conversation breaks down you seem to want to make it my responsibility to address your arguments in a satisfactory manner.

Man, the assessment of my character is so heavy, but the hard logic is lacking. Why are you attacking my character so hard Shotai? How can we deescalate the situation and try to reason with intellectual discussion without the personal attacks?

Maybe you're right I've acted like a snot nosed brat (what colorful language to paint me as a snot nosed brat! Why are you calling people on the forum snot nosed brats? Is that allowed?). But if I have been, then more people should act like snot nosed brats. Because apparently it's the snot nosed brats who are logical and fair in this forum.

Y'know, us snot nosed brats can just as easily say you're the one whose ego is doing the talking. But I wouldn't do that, because I don't know you. But you have to assume a false superior knowledge in order to attack my character. It doesn't work on me.

And of course it is your responsibility to address my arguments in a satisfactory manner! You ought to do something other than assess my character!

Let's try to be friends and talk about what Hytale was before it was cancelled.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Rudometkin

[Rudometkin]

On 7/7/2025 at 10:55 AM, Myo said:

Take it from a veteran player: Temporal storms are bullshit and enemies should still follow some spawning restrictions during it. The fact that enemies can spawn literally on you and immediately attack you without advance warning is bullshit.

Sounds like....temporal storms are dangerous.

Aren't they supposed to be dangerous? I'm new, and I know it is possible to lock yourself in a 2x1 hole during a temporal storm to stay safe from the danger.

One reason I totally love this game is because I'm reading about veteran players complain about the challenge. That is a good uncompromising wilderness survival game.

"Well it's unfair"

Yeah it's uncompromising that's what you bought!

I got struck dead by lightning and was satisfied that I was delivered the game I was sold on.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Rudometkin

[Shotai]

57 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

Man, the assessment of my character is so heavy, but the hard logic is lacking

I see I struck a nerve. You don't need to post 3 seperate essays to convince people that you're more right than you already think you were beforehand. You're right when you're right, and if you're wrong; well . . . I was the one who had the nerve to say that you conflated your own experiences and desires over others. I just wished that you had the self awareness to see you doing it live action.

1 hour ago, Rudometkin said:

And I'm saying it was obvious to me, a new player.

 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

If it's obvious to you, it isn't obvious to everyone

I think you meant to say, "Just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone."

Also 4 replies in a row? From the same person. You must have really gotten under his skin. I remember the day when he said,

Quote

It would be great if maybe we all asked questions more, and maybe assumed honesty in each other more.

I'm starting to think he didn't really mean it. I even addressed narcissism with him privately and his response was "I this" and "I that" and "me"... his entire response was about himself. It was amusing. I long for the day that he enters the final arc of his character development and "can relearn how to be freakin' polite to people online", to quote the guy himself. I might even be alive to see it.

He wants people to "wolf bait" him now so I would just ignore and move on. Let him be someone else's problem.

[Shotai]

3 minutes ago, traugdor said:

I think you meant to say, "Just because it's obvious to you doesn't mean it's obvious to everyone."

Also 4 replies in a row? From the same person. You must have really gotten under his skin. I remember the day when he said,

I'm starting to think he didn't really mean it. I even addressed narcissism with him privately and his response was "I this" and "I that" and "me"... his entire response was about himself. It was amusing. I long for the day that he enters the final arc of his character development and "can relearn how to be freakin' polite to people online", to quote the guy himself. I might even be alive to see it.

He wants people to "wolf bait" him now so I would just ignore and move on. Let him be someone else's problem.

I'm not sure what wolf bait is, but yeah, I've gotta get some sleep anyways. I was just surprised to see so much effort going into, er, whatever that was all about.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 minute ago, Rudometkin said:

Please stay on topic.

take your own advice.

[AnniPicto]

The letters on the screen are something unnecessary in the opinion of some modern players. I don’t think that the game developers are targeting such people. As was said earlier, the game has a good tutorial that starts after the first steps in the game. It teaches how to use the manual and find information. The “survival” genre assumes the player’s readiness to understand the mechanics and make an effort to learn. From the very beginning, the game presented itself as a more difficult analogue of Minecraft. But Minecraft has creatures that can destroy everything you have built and saved for a long time in a second, and creatures that are simply dangerous to look at. Just imagine - games like Green Hell or Project Zomboid have a huge number of positive reviews. But these games hate beginners and try to kill them from the first steps in the most inventive ways!

[Facethief]

11 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

This is far too assumptive and simplistic to be generally accurate. Of course you can learn by being thrown into a pool and drowning. But also, the game is not even guaranteeing you will drown.

90% of people who drown swim worse afterwards on account of their lack of motor function due to sudden loss of life.

[Enjen]

Hello everyone, I've been reading the thread and just wanted to inject my own opinion on certain matters
 

15 hours ago, Shotai said:

. . . I didn't add anything. That was. In the. Original. Post. That you would have had to have read to respond.

I could not pass without addressing this You did add the drowning bit. It wasn't in the original post. 'nuff said about that from me lol
 

On 7/12/2025 at 8:03 PM, Shotai said:

Having hidden modifiers isn't a learning curve. Like holding something in your off hand starving you. Or wearing armor starving you. Or just expecting the player to know that, hey, you know that clock that spins around in your inventory? That actually means something

You do make a great point of certain things needing to be explained more. "Hidden Modifiers" should be made a little clearer. I saw someone recommend an optional tutorial mode. I think that'd be really cool. A place that breaks the fourth wall to teach those hidden mechanics. Of course, at that point if people skip the tutorial, whether they can survive or not is up to their own ability and skill. That's not to say the Game can't improve certain mechanics. I do think there are some rather difficult parts (from what I've read) that just need a bit of rebalancing. Like the temporal storms.
 

14 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

This is wild to me. It's 100% the game's fault that people don't read. Did I fall into a rift? I feel like I'm in the twilight zone.

It is obvious. It was for me. As soon as I spawned, it was right there on my screen, saying to press a key to open the handbook.

Is the handbook supposed to slap the player in the face? If it becomes that obvious, it better deal damage.

While I do agree with your point that it is already pretty obvious that there is a Handbook with the popup on screen, some things like the SHIFT+H Combo while looking at a block is something that could be communicated in game much better. I think it's a super useful tool. Your sarcasm does make your comment a bit harder to digest. The humorous angle you're trying to take is falling flat with many Users thus far.

14 hours ago, Shotai said:

This conversation is about the emotional appeal to the game to new players that are coming to enjoy it. But you seem hellbent on reasurring yourself that you're right and everyone else must be wrong; which is probably why OP left the conversation to begin with.

Theirs a few assumptions that are rather unfair, but they are your opinion so that's all I'll say there. I don't think Rudometkin is wrong to defend their point as everyone else is also defending their point. His delivery is another topic entirely. So let's keep it to exactly what you mentioned:
"Emotional Appeal to the game to new players that are coming to enjoy it". The game could be better and it is getting better. I love new players (and those advocating for new players) making posts like OP did. It gives us opinions and anecdotes from all across the spectrum. Obviously, Vintage Story appeals to a very specific crowd and will not be for everyone. That's not to say, new players should be shunned if they think the game is too hard and asking for change. I agree that they should also be heard out.
 

14 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

I don't think that's a fair assessment of me.

14 hours ago, traugdor said:

some people don't take their own advice. #jussayin

14 hours ago, Shotai said:

You did not fall into a rift. You did not fall into the twilight zone. If it's obvious to you, it isn't obvious to everyone; I already went over how this is a frequently re-occuring issue that you have when interacting with people. I'm describing your behavior and why it isn't effective, I even explained to you that your ego is doing the talking;

It's an assessment I've seen made rather often. Whether it's fair or not I won't comment on. What I will comment on is that an assessment of your character shouldn't be made in threads like this. If anyone has an issue with anyone's character, it should be dealt with privately and come to understand one another.
 

I won't quote Rudometkin's long posts but I do understand him defending himself. His character was blatantly assumed, and he got defensive. Again, this is why these conversations should be had in private.
 

13 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

Sounds like....temporal storms are dangerous.

Aren't they supposed to be dangerous? I'm new, and I know it is possible to lock yourself in a 2x1 hole during a temporal storm to stay safe from the danger.

I think they could stand to be a bit more balanced. I've seen arguments from even players that have played the game a long time say they're pretty bad. while digging a 2x1 hole does seem like a strategy one could take, with rebalancing of the temporal storms, more diverse strategies could be taken without removing anything that makes it so scary!
 

13 hours ago, traugdor said:

I'm starting to think he didn't really mean it. I even addressed narcissism with him privately and his response was "I this" and "I that" and "me"... his entire response was about himself. It was amusing. I long for the day that he enters the final arc of his character development and "can relearn how to be freakin' polite to people online", to quote the guy himself. I might even be alive to see it.

Private conversations should be left private.
 

6 hours ago, Scorpictorem said:

But Minecraft has creatures that can destroy everything you have built and saved for a long time in a second, and creatures that are simply dangerous to look at. Just imagine - games like Green Hell or Project Zomboid have a huge number of positive reviews. But these games hate beginners and try to kill them from the first steps in the most inventive ways!

Agreed! But I feel even the Creepers have a deterrent (Water in a bucket, running away as soon as you hear the sssss because they don't blow up right away) while monsters here don't really have any avoidance measures. This is where I can see rebalancing certain things can be useful

Apologies for the long post! Just wanted to interject and throw my opinion in the thread  Happy Gaming everyone!

[Shotai]

On 7/12/2025 at 11:03 PM, Shotai said:

To comment on this, a learning curve is not being thrown to wolves and told to "get over it".

A learning curve is understanding the nuances of a game through the process of learning. You don't learn by being thrown into a pool and drowning. Anybody who advocates for that is irresponsibly selfish in the glib manner in which they assert themselves.

7/12/2025, 11:03 PM; I posted my first post which would thus make this my initial comment.

Edited July 14, 2025 by Shotai

[Shotai]

7 hours ago, Scorpictorem said:

The letters on the screen are something unnecessary in the opinion of some modern players. I don’t think that the game developers are targeting such people. As was said earlier, the game has a good tutorial that starts after the first steps in the game. It teaches how to use the manual and find information. The “survival” genre assumes the player’s readiness to understand the mechanics and make an effort to learn. From the very beginning, the game presented itself as a more difficult analogue of Minecraft. But Minecraft has creatures that can destroy everything you have built and saved for a long time in a second, and creatures that are simply dangerous to look at. Just imagine - games like Green Hell or Project Zomboid have a huge number of positive reviews. But these games hate beginners and try to kill them from the first steps in the most inventive ways!

Zomboid is perhaps a bit different. Very different, in my opinion, with more than 1k hours on it and more than 300 a couple of years ago on Vintage story and 20 hours presently.

You can walk away from zombies and not die. You can register when you died being your own mistake because you understand the risk that you're taking when doom hits your way. The game doesn't make you cut your teeth on some of the most boring, mundane gameplay I'd ever experienced in a video game; period; just to experience what VS is supposedly all about. There are no ranged enemies (yet). Except for the most extreme injuries or you're some kind of psychopath eating/drinking stale things. It doesn't take an entire hour to heal from a ranged attack that you had no way of knowing would strike you from something you couldn't see; with no manner of healing that damage in a speedy manner.

Zomboid doesn't hate beginners, because beginners have every opportunity to not just play the game by doing the bare minimum but to have many different playstyles that can make you tackle certain situations differently. Friends I take onto Zomboid I just say "If you're uncomfortable, just walk away. Walk around. Walk in a donut. Just get really close and get comfortable, you're not in danger. The only way you can die, is by killing yourself because of your own inexperience."

In VS, you're put in unwinnable situations too frequently and the strategy that you need to use is pretty repetitive and boring. I say this after hitting the iron age once a couple of years ago and playing the game again now, after registering several unavoidable deaths contributed to the early game murder. Infinity spawns. Teleportation deaths. Being 1 tapped by a bow asshole, running away into tall grass and then getting hogged by a hog. Being hit by a bow guy once, making you abandon the path you took to get food; resulting in a starvation episode of spiraling doom.

Combine these things with hidden stats and hidden "features" and you can probably see why Zomboid can rake in such a large number of players despite being a game known for a high difficulty cap.

But I just want to make sure we're clear here, a high difficulty cap is not the same thing as "hating beginners".

Edited July 14, 2025 by Shotai

[Teh Pizza Lady]

2 minutes ago, Shotai said:

a high difficulty cap is not the same thing as "hating beginners".

EVE Online has a high difficulty cap and a learning curve so steep it's almost backwards... yet the game is thriving and is the major source of income for CCP games. The problem isn't games being hard. The problem is games being needlessly difficult to the point of being unfun.

[Echo Weaver]

35 minutes ago, Enjen said:

But I feel even the Creepers have a deterrent (Water in a bucket, running away as soon as you hear the sssss because they don't blow up right away) while monsters here don't really have any avoidance measures. This is where I can see rebalancing certain things can be useful

Just a small comment on the longer post. Most enemies have warnings, don't they? Drifters moan and throw rocks. Wolves growl. Bears growl in a way that is harder to catch, but it's there. It's been a while since I fought a Locust, but I don't recall it being hard to know they were coming.

Bowtorns seem to be the biggest issue, and they probably could do with another round of balancing.

10 minutes ago, Shotai said:

The game doesn't make you cut your teeth on some of the most boring, mundane gameplay I'd ever experienced in a video game; period.

If this is the foundation of your position, you're just not the game's target audience. It can't be fixed without making a different game. It's totally OK if this game is not for you. The thing to do is not to argue about it with people who love the game. It's to just not play it.

Most folks are on this forum because they love the game, so an opinion like this is just not going to get a good reception. In general, you can't reason with people to convince them that a game they love actually sucks.

I hate FPSs. My partner thinks Minecraft is so annoying and boring I can't even get her to try VS. We were able come together and play Green Hell (mentioned someplace above), which I love, because the crafting/action balance is different, and it was the crafting rather than the difficulty that bores her. It's all subjective.

[Shotai]

5 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

If this is the foundation of your position, you're just not the game's target audience. It can't be fixed without making a different game. It's totally OK if this game is not for you. The thing to do is not to argue about it with people who love the game. It's to just not play it.

Of course it's possible to fix this without making the game a different game. People don't identify games with difficulty, at least most games that you and I are aware of. When asked what VS is, do you just say "Well it's this difficult game that . . ." or do you say "Vintage Story is heavily inspired by natural processes of the real world and brings them into the game in a fun and enjoyable way. Our aim is to capture the beauty of the natural world and amplify the experience within our game."

What do you think I'm advocating against, exactly? Why am I not a target demographic to the games audience if I enjoy natural processes of the real world and enjoy beautiful, natural landscapes in a block building game?

[Rudometkin]

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

Damn, when you're so down bad about being disgraced that you mass report somebody handling your toxicity. I can't even lol.

In my experience, it is actually suggested by forum staff to report a comment when it addresses someone's behavior in that way. It's what we're supposed to do, instead of addressing the behavior.  

[Echo Weaver]

31 minutes ago, Shotai said:

Of course it's possible to fix this without making the game a different game. People don't identify games with difficulty, at least most games that you and I are aware of. When asked what VS is, do you just say "Well it's this difficult game that . . ." or do you say "Vintage Story is heavily inspired by natural processes of the real world and brings them into the game in a fun and enjoyable way. Our aim is to capture the beauty of the natural world and amplify the experience within our game."

How do you think I would respond to that as someone who loves the game, and whose favorite part so far was nearly starving my first winter in my current game?

This is what I actually say when asked: "Vintage Story is a survival game with extreme focus on detailed survival simulation. In Minecraft, the first thing you do in a new world is punch a tree. In Vintage Story, the first thing you do is find two pieces of flint and knap yourself a knife. That attention to detail continues throughout the game."

So I DON'T say that it's hard, but I love that it's hard. I love that running a farm feels like running a farm. I also love places where it decides to be less accurate -- leathermaking has a nicely-thought-out simulation, but it skipped the parts with uric acid and/or animal feces. Not to say that I would never mod that in, but I'm glad I get to choose.

31 minutes ago, Shotai said:

What do you think I'm advocating against, exactly? Why am I not a target demographic to the games audience if I enjoy natural processes of the real world and enjoy beautiful, natural landscapes in a block building game?

If you think the early gameplay is deadly dull, this is not the game for you.

I'd suggest Exploration Mode to reduce the early kills -- it exists specifically for folks who want to reduce the danger -- but it sounds like if you did this, you'd still be stuck with a gameplay loop you hate.

 

Edited July 14, 2025 by Echo Weaver

[Echo Weaver]

(Also, actually making leather has a bunch more steps o.O. You could make an entire simulation game about making leather. I'm not sure I'd want to play it, but you could.)

[Shotai]

6 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

If you think the early gameplay is deadly dull, this is not the game for you.

What I meant is that, what exactly do you think I'm advocating against that takes away the identity of VS away from VS?

[Echo Weaver]

1 minute ago, Shotai said:

What I meant is that, what exactly do you think I'm advocating against that takes away the identity of VS away from VS?

Is your position that the gameplay you hate is not part of VS's identity?

I think that's a major place where you and I, and most of the game's fans, would disagree.

[Shotai]

22 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

Is your position that the gameplay you hate is not part of VS's identity?

I think that's a major place where you and I, and most of the game's fans, would disagree.

I'm saying that you can keep your identity as a "difficulty overcomer" while still making the game appetising to new players without making the entry level so overbearing that people leave. Convincing even experienced survival nerds to sit in a body of water for 30-60 minutes holding one button down while desperately trying to convince themselves to not jump out their bedroom window on their 70th floor suite is a difficult conversation to have.

If you are saying "this game isn't for you, it's for this exclusive select group of people" you're inherently doing more harm than good. I mean, you can't even seem to point out what I'm advocoating against or for. Just vaguely "Shotai is against the gameplay they hate which is the identity of the game" assumes that might makes right and that other opinions don't matter.

I literally have not even spoken about elements of the game in a specific light. Just vaguely, "these are the things off the top of my head that are frustrating to new players" which in response you're saying "I don't care, I like it this way. A large portion of the community that I am speaking for likes it this way. Difficulty is VS's identity, and you're trying to take that from me".

This is akin to some old grandpa making his grandsons life as unbearable as the experience as he had to sit through, because that's fair to grandpa. Grandpa had to go through it, why doesn't grandson have to go through it?

Edited July 14, 2025 by Shotai

[Echo Weaver]

13 minutes ago, Shotai said:

you can't even seem to point out what I'm advocoating against or for. Just vaguely "Shotai is against the gameplay they hate which is the identity of the game" assumes that might makes right and that other opinions don't matter.

I literally have not even spoken about elements of the game in a specific light. Just vaguely, "these are the things off the top of my head that are frustrating to new players" which in response you're saying "I don't care, I like it this way. A large portion of the community that I am speaking for likes it this way. Difficulty is VS's identity, and you're trying to take that from me".

That's where we are never going to line up. You hate some gameplay. I love that gameplay. You think that keeping said gameplay is bad for attracting new players. I say that the game is written for people who like that gameplay.

As for whether you've talked about gameplay in a specific light, the piece I quoted at the beginning of this was:

1 hour ago, Shotai said:

The game doesn't make you cut your teeth on some of the most boring, mundane gameplay I'd ever experienced in a video game; period; just to experience what VS is supposedly all about.

Why is this not "literally talking about elements of gameplay in a specific light"?

If you hate it that much, and the fans of the game love it, who wins? And why?

Edited July 14, 2025 by Echo Weaver