Parabola

I firmly agree, however VS's chat server not being on Discord =/= Discord-Matrix bridging. Perhaps in the future if Discord shows instability Matrix could be considered as a replacement for Discord. Regarding bridging, @Teh Pizza Lady's reminder regarding the TOS led me to re-frame my thinking on this suggestion. I was residually aware that Matrix bridges were against Discord TOS due to consent cascading (which was slightly misconstrued, but still got the point across previously in this thread), but re-contextualizing this to VS and Matrix bridging: Anego cannot risk being found in violation of Discord TOS (as unlikely as that may be due to Discord's lax enforcement of this policy) and losing their largest (probably?) platform. Alternatively it could be suggested that Anego provide a Matrix server as a separate, unbridged platform. Though the benefit provided by this versus simply utilizing the forum seems to be negligible...

As to not derail this thread, I have made a separate one: TOPS Announcements on the Forum

I would like to suggest / request that important announcements related to TOPS which are posted in the Discord be re-posted in a "TOPS Announcements" thread on the forum. This request comes in light of my and others' inability to join the Discord, and it would be greatly appreciated if somebody or somebodies that are in the Discord could re-post updates to rules, future plans, etc. As @radfast suggested, a non-VS team member could do this. Perhaps a TOPS moderator who is active on the forum would be best suited? I don't want to put a burden on anybody to do this, so please only volunteer if you have the time!

@radfast Thank you for your input. I agree with the majority of your points and with the reality that it is unlikely to be implemented, much to my disappointment. Regarding: A key reason I personally want an alternative is because TOPS announcements are not made on the blog / forum (please correct me if I'm wrong!). I only become aware of important updates such as rule changes / future plans through random chance in chat, because it would be bothersome to ask "has there been any updates" in the chat every time. Perhaps TOPS announcements are not "major" but at the very least their absence affects me. [Edit]: perhaps this should be made into a separate suggestion?

Matrix certainly isn't for everyone! I believe you don't have to see personal benefit in Matrix to support providing it as an alternative option for those whom there is benefit. Those that don't see benefit in using Matrix don't have to join. The benefits to us, we few who don't / can't use Discord, are listed above. The difficulty we, who don't / can't use Discord, have with using Discord is not a problem of 'hoops', but of ethics as outlined above. Additionally, depending on Anego's setup, the account creation flow can be equally simple to Discord's: Step 1. press "create account" on matrix.vintagestory.at Step 2. verify email Step 3. you're in the VS Matrix server. See here for an example simplified account creation flow.

@Teh Pizza Lady I don't mean to be rude, but have you read the thread thus far? This thread is not suggesting to replace Discord, nor implying users in the VS Discord will be affected by the upcoming changes. This thread is requesting that Anego provide an alternative for those that find difficulty in using Discord. This thread was revived in light of recent Discord policy changes that further illustrate how Discord's policies do not align with Anego's ethos. Below I have summarized various users' points, though I think reading from the beginning would provide a fuller picture: @Lily Pod Using Discord is generally misaligned with the VS 'standards' as Discord implements the following things VS is against: a marketplace microtransactions ads user data monetization software patents (closed source vs VS' open source approach) shareholders @freelikegnu Matrix fulfills the same role as Discord (requires sign-in; is a chat platform not a forum), but does not monetize its users @hstone32 Matrix allows more user freedom @Parabola Discord's phone number verification requirement to join servers results in players from stricter countries (countries outside the US and EU) essentially having to give their government ID to Discord (see here, figure 6) If you have any arguments as to why Matrix shouldn't be provided as an alternative please feel free to post! Any questions are also welcome.

To greatly simplify and make an analogy to something many of us are familiar with in the VS community: Matrix is essentially software which Anego could use to implement to make a Matrix Server. This is similar to Anego providing the VS mod API and a mod creator using it to make a mod. Anego physically cannot "shut down" a mod which is created by a mod creator and hosted on their own website. Matrix Servers are similar; Matrix (the organization) physically cannot shut down a server hosted at matrix.vintagestory.at See here or here if you want to learn more. However, just as most VS mods are hosted on the lovely VS ModDB, most good Matrix Servers are hosted on common Homeservers. Ultimately, the Homeserver of a Matrix Server has the authority to shut bad servers down, just as Anego has the authority to remove bad mods from the VS ModDB. Some Homeservers such as element have comparatively high scrutiny of servers and are more liberal in shutting them down, resulting in a reputable network of Matrix Servers and not a "cesspool". Anego could make a VS Homeserver (downside quoted below) or host the server on a reputable Homeserver. Hope this clears the confusion up for you and future viewers!

I feel that this is exactly their function in the game: an early-game food source which is not filling and perhaps dangerous due to its habitat being sometimes shared with bears (though I've never personally encountered them while picking), but is resilient and available during any season. Once you get a farm going, they are a novelty item or a fun surprise / reminiscence for the early game.

100% The moderation difficulty I mentioned would be solved by a one-way bridged Matrix Server is Discord punishment circumvention—not that the Matrix Server would not be moderated; community moderators would be necessary just as they are in the Discord, though to a lesser degree due to the smaller number of users who would be on Matrix. Likewise, moderation tools are available for Matrix just they are for Discord. However... I disagree with your assertion above that Matrix is any more of a "cesspool" than Discord, to the contrary Discord has "communities" readily searchable which individually promote all three of the things you rightfully said Anego would not want to associate themselves with: (these "communities" are below the join server button on Discord) Furthermore, servers which promote these three are (unfortunately) present on both Discord and Matrix despite being in breach of both platforms' TOS. As such, I do not think Matrix should be dismissed as a platform which promotes activities with which Anego would not want to associate. ...I would be interested in other opinions / arguments for or against Matrix as an alternative platform for our community, however!

From Anego's perspective, I see two reasons why a two-way Matrix Bridge would be difficult: 1. Configuration On top of the required server resources for installation of the Matrix appservice, Anego would have to allocate some of their limited manpower to establish / maintain the bridge for the minority of players who want to use Matrix. 2. Moderation Bridges complicate moderation in public servers. For example, malicious actors could subvert Discord mutes/bans by joining the Matrix server to continue to interact (sending messages via the two-way bridge). This would necessitate moderation manpower on Matrix as well as Discord, which—just as with Configuration—is more manpower consumed for a minority of players. So what do I propose? So as to not ask too much of Anego, I think it would be more reasonable to request a: a. One-way Bridged Matrix Server Discord messages in certain channels—say #announcements, #servers, & #TOPS for example—would be copied one-way to Matrix. This would solve the moderation difficulty mentioned above. b. Non-bridged Official Matrix Server, While not solving the issue of being unable to interact with the majority of the player-base which is on Discord, this solves both of the difficulties mentioned above and would require little Anego manpower except to setup the server and provide it as an option on the website under Chat. Both of these options would provide an alternative platform to Discord for those in the community who cannot or will not use Discord, but still want a place to stay connected; chat, voice call, or screenshare casually. I am interested in what others have to say on this topic. Thank you for bringing attention to this once again Lily Pod.

It is clear there is a handful of us in the VS community who are interested in seeing an alternative to Discord. Matrix coming coming up as the option is unsurprising given the game's "Fair and Independent" positioning (as quoted above by Lily Pod) and openness https://github.com/anegostudios align with the Matrix protocol. While some players have come to this forum to request Matrix as an option, (see this post from last year for example) it is likely that many people who are adversely affected by Discord being the sole official chat server for VS are unable to voice their concerns, as they cannot or will not join the Discord. Personally, the phone number requirement to join discord.gg/vintagestory (or any server for that matter) is paramount to providing a government ID to Discord due to legislation in my country, which—knowing their data leak track record and upcoming face scanning implementation—doesn't feel very good.