Abandoned Claims System

[Tom Cantine]

There are some issues I've seen come up in TOPS, and which I suspect are going to be pretty common any time you have a persistent server with many users. 

One such issue is abandonment. It's not uncommon for players to just drift away from a game or give up on it and never come back, leaving their claims unavailable for anyone still playing. Rather than having to pester the mods to intervene, it might be useful to build in a system that can be administered automatically or with player input, all configurable at the server level. Here are a couple of mechanisms I've been thinking about.

First, each claim should have an "idle timer". This would keep track of how long it's been since it's been reset, and it'd be reset by one or more of the following server configured options:

• The owner of the claim logs into the game.
• The owner of the claim actually enters the claim.
• A player with permissions to the claim enters the claim.

There should also be an "adverse possession" counter. This would increment each day someone who does NOT have permissions on the claim enters or attempts to enter an idle claim (such as by trying to break a block or open a door), and is reset to zero whenever the idle timer is reset.

Finally there would be an "abandonment timer", which is triggered and starts counting down once the idle timer or the adverse possession counter reach a server configured threshold. (If this timer is configured to zero, then abandonment happens immediately.)

When the abandonment timer is triggered, notices would be published to a configured audience, whether it be just the owner, everyone with permissions on the claim, or the entire server, that the claim is subject to abandonment in X days. (This should also be shown by /land info.)

When the abandonment timer hits zero, the land is declared abandoned. Depending on server configuration, this could mean:

• The claim instantly expires.
• The land becomes "use" for all players, but the claim doesn't disappear entirely.
• A player entering* the claim is given the option to delete the claim
• A player entering* the claim is given the option to renew the claim on behalf of the original owner, thus reseting the idle timer.
• A player entering* the claim is given the option to take over the claim.

*entering the claim would include attempting to open a door or break a block in the claim.

 

It occurs to me that there should also be a way for the owner of a claim to just transfer ownership of a claim to another player, rather than having to release the claim and make the receiving player establish a new one, because that could be quite difficult in the case of claims made up of multiple cuboids weaving their way around other claims.

[Wahazar]

I wonder, why there is no claim timeout. Even there is no such mods for claims subscription for rusty gears (I didn't tried CAN mods because they seems to be complex system).

It is not issue for short-lived servers with frequent wipe, but in case of long-lasting ones, these abandoned claims are annoying, especially if building is not finished.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

I'm gonna shoot this down for the simple reason that people sometimes have to leave the game for a while and intend to come back. Claims removal should solely be an admin privilege

Also because I detest the notion of squatters and squatters' rights. If you own land, it's yours. End of story, imo.

The only change I would entertain is a way to catalogue the claims and get a list of claims that the owner hasn't used in a while. Other people entering the claim should have no bearing on the decision to remove the claim.

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I'm gonna shoot this down for the simple reason that people sometimes have to leave the game for a while and intend to come back. Claims removal should solely be an admin privilege

Not to mention that a vote system could easily be abused. Just get your friends/allies to sway a vote in your favor, or invade someone's space enough times to force a vote on the claim. I think to prevent abuse of this sort, you'd essentially have to get a server admin to look over the claim anyway, which kinda defeats the whole purpose of an automated system.

 

1 hour ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

The only change I would entertain is a way to catalogue the claims and get a list of claims that the owner hasn't used in a while.

Yeah, this seems like the most fair route, assuming it doesn't already exist. I think MMO guilds have similar tools, in that guild masters/officers can see when members last logged in. If server admins have a way to track when players last logged in, it'd be easier to figure out which claims aren't seeing a lot of use and make a decision on whether or not to free up the territory.

[Tom Cantine]

3 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I'm gonna shoot this down for the simple reason that people sometimes have to leave the game for a while and intend to come back. Claims removal should solely be an admin privilege

Also because I detest the notion of squatters and squatters' rights. If you own land, it's yours. End of story, imo.

The only change I would entertain is a way to catalogue the claims and get a list of claims that the owner hasn't used in a while. Other people entering the claim should have no bearing on the decision to remove the claim.

Yes, it's certainly the case that people have to leave the game with every intention of coming back. It's ALSO the case that lots of people join a server, put down a claim, and then disappear for good. In our village, there are abandoned claims of both types. 

As for adverse possession, it's a thing in common law, and for very good reason. thought perhaps less so now that many jurisdictions use a Torrens system of title registration. Even so, the rationale behind adverse possession was to include a mechanism for bringing the property rights more in line with how they were actually being used, and the Crown has always had an interest in seeing land used most productively. (Analogously, a server administrator will often have an interest in facilitating player activity and interaction.) 

That said, the reason I included an adverse possession timer in this proposal was to reflect the reality that an abandoned claim out in the middle of nowhere isn't in anyone's way and isn't likely to be challenged or squatted upon, whereas idle claims in busy areas are the ones that cause the most disruption to town life. Abandoning a claim in the middle of a busy community is just kind of a dick move.

I will note that since making this suggestion I've revised my thinking somewhat. Somewhere else I made a suggestion of tying claims to a kind of "property tax" in RG, which might be calculated with reference to such things as temporal stability, and proximity to traders, TLs and other claims. Naturally it was not a popular suggestion: everyone hates taxes. But I do think it might be a good option for server operators who want to experiment with various economic models.

Also, since writing that I've explored the potential of combining claims, group permissions, and locks. So at least in the settlement I expect to be establishing after The Wipe, some of these problems will be significantly ameliorated.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

9 minutes ago, Tom Cantine said:

As for adverse possession, it's a thing in common law, and for very good reason. thought perhaps less so now that many jurisdictions use a Torrens system of title registration. Even so, the rationale behind adverse possession was to include a mechanism for bringing the property rights more in line with how they were actually being used, and the Crown has always had an interest in seeing land used most productively. (Analogously, a server administrator will often have an interest in facilitating player activity and interaction.) 

This right here...

Vintage Story is a game created to be played by various people of different backgrounds and ethnic histories. Not everyone respects or has any interest in the intent of the Crown. We all live and behave under different rules and laws. Just because you think that adverse possession is okay, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't regard it as blatant theft. It'd be the same as robbing a museum because "Nobody was using it!" in some minds. Not only wrong for some, but downright illegal for others.

So we have to be careful to make the game accessible and relatable to a broader spectrum of people. It needs to be in the hands of the server owners to make judgements on a case-by-case basis. Otherwise you run into alienation and isolation of folks who want to play but don't have as much time as others and get railroaded into giving up something they claimed as their own and in some cases, rightfully paid for.

[Tom Cantine]

1 hour ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Just because you think that adverse possession is okay, doesn't mean that someone else doesn't regard it as blatant theft. It'd be the same as robbing a museum because "Nobody was using it!" in some minds. Not only wrong for some, but downright illegal for others.

And just because you regard it as blatant theft doesn't mean it IS. The common law has evolved over centuries, finding rules for resolving disputes over just this sort of thing, and adverse possession is not an easy thing to establish. There are very specific requirements for it to be successful, and all it takes for the lawful owner to defeat it is to check in every so often and say, "Hey, get off my land!" Whereas the squatter has to be openly and conspicuously using the land for quite some time, long enough to be recognized by the locals as the effective owner of the place and long enough for their occupation of the land to come to the attention of the registered owner. Adverse possession rules arose because of a legitimate need, more an issue in the days of deeds than today, but the moral, practical and legal arguments for such a system still apply. 

Now, I'm not actually arguing that adverse possession should be maintained as a legal mechanism. Here in Alberta it was just abolished (in 2022), and I'm kind of indifferent about that. But I do think it's important to challenge this widespread idea that property rights are an absolute pre-legal Fact Of Nature. (I think the framers of the U.S. constitution made that mistake when they drafted the 5th Amendment, for example). Property rights are inherently a creature of law, and they can be created (e.g. copyright), amended or abolished (e.g. chattel slavery) by legislatures, and reassigned by courts.

So I would argue not that we should never ever violate the absolute sanctity of someone's ownership claim (over land or anything else, IRL or IG), but rather the debate should be about when it's appropriate to do so. And I don't think we disagree too much, in that you recognize that the server administrators should have that power. But ideally the server administrators will be applying consistent, reliable principles in exercising this power, and incorporating some of those principles into the game's code could streamline their workload.

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, Tom Cantine said:

I will note that since making this suggestion I've revised my thinking somewhat. Somewhere else I made a suggestion of tying claims to a kind of "property tax" in RG, which might be calculated with reference to such things as temporal stability, and proximity to traders, TLs and other claims. Naturally it was not a popular suggestion: everyone hates taxes. But I do think it might be a good option for server operators who want to experiment with various economic models.

Interesting. I can see why it wouldn't be popular, however, if there is a periodic "tax" then it could be used to check who plays regularly against who does not. Assuming the admins are the ones checking the "taxes", they could just return the items to their respective owners at the end of the check, so that players aren't actually losing resources. However, the flaw I see in this system, is figuring out a way to make sure that the player in question paid the tax themselves, and didn't just get a friend to do it for them. Perhaps tax items must be returned in person to the corresponding player?

I don't know. It seems a problem that would be prevalent mainly on big servers, and not so much small ones. 

[Tom Cantine]

I wouldn't have a problem at all with someone getting a friend to pay the tax, or reset the adverse possession timer for that matter. If you have someone who has permissions on your claim, and they're still using it, then the claim's not abandoned. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

In all honesty, this sounds like a very specific issue that should be handled on a server-by-server basis. No need to force everyone in the game to follow this when most people are probably respectful of each other's space, even if they're gone for a long while before eventually returning.

Imagine if you were forced to be away for a while and came back to a server you enjoyed playing on, only to find that you joined the game in someone else's house where yours used to be. All your hard work ... gone.

Or imagine you went on vacation and were gone for three weeks and someone had gotten his friends to veto your landownership while you were away and they ganged up and killed you in-game until your respawns were all used up and you went back to the world spawn point.

What you're suggesting is a powerful weapon that can and will be used against you given the chance.

[Arisilde]

Just my 2 cents, but seems to me the server settings for a system like suggested would limit any "theft" concerns if you're being reasonable about it. Just set the timer to a sensible length and no one can honestly say they got robbed. If you legitimately disappear for an extended length of time, honestly that's on you. You're doing a disservice to the rest of the server. Claims get locked forever without admin intervention. On high turnover servers this can become a real pain for admins who also just want to play, not spend all their time on admin duties. Systems like this actually help both sides, players going on hiatus, and servers dealing with abandoned claims. You just need to build in a couple safeties. 

1. A command/system so the owner, a person with permissions, or a server admin, can add time to a specific claim's timer. If you leave for a legitimate reason, there's no reason you can't add time yourself to cover how long you expect to be gone, or shoot a message to the admin or one of your friends with access so they can do it for you. Even if you leave unexpectedly, it takes 1 minute to send a message. If you're injured or fall sick, your friends can keep things going until you return with no risk to your claim.
2. Designate a temporary caretaker. If you're going to be gone for a very extended amount of time without communication, give a friend temporary rights that supersede normal access permissions. They can do all the things an owner can do, other than give away or delete the claim. This lets them overrule others in place of the owner for the following systems.
3. If the timer runs out, a configurable grace period starts where people with claim permissions get the first chance to have ownership pass to them. The caretaker gets first pick, then other users with permissions in stages based on permission level. The claim doesn't go up for grabs until after the grace period ends. This is a second line of defense for both the owners and regular users. It gives the owner's friends a chance to claim the ownership so they can hold onto the plot in the owner's stead if they are unreachable for some reason, allowing them to give it back if the owner returns. It also allows for situations where membership is more loose, not specifically friends. It gives regular users of the claim a chance to take over if the owner disappears without leaving a caretaker, instead of just someone random taking ownership. And finally, it still allows completely abandoned claims to be cleaned up without constantly being a burden on the admins.

These arguably give reasonable flexibility for basically all legitimate real life reasons a person might disappear for a while, or for users of a claim to prevent someone else from taking it just because the owner may have disappeared, without skewing to heavily in favor of filling servers with dead claims. It's also probably not that difficult to create, and not at all heavy on server performance. Just an array of tiny structs keeping a record of claims and their timers, some server commands, and a little logic for the grace period and other permissions tie ins.

And of course it would be a mod or server option, so not forced on anyone.

Edited December 4, 2025 by Arisilde