Trees & Wood could use an overhaul

[RoastCabose]

Trees in the current state feel strange. Dropping all logs in one go is convenient, and better than perhaps the "classic" voxel game solution, but makes cutting down trees underwhelming and doesn't feel "real" in a way a lot of other mechanics do now. 

Background

Some mods have picked up the slack with this. Salty's Falling Trees, for example, makes it so that chopping down a tree actually makes the tree fall down, and places logs appropriately on the ground, as well as all the leaves and sticks as well. Then, you actually have to chop the trunk up into the logs you carry back home. This alone feels like it should be in the base game. However, I think we can go farther, and my inspiration for this comes from another mod, namely Eco Machina. 

In Eco Machina, trees get rendered with actual branches, and narrowing trunks as you go up the trees. It also has aspirations to show root systems at the base of trees. And while I think that mod is very cool, the fact that it is just a visual change made me think of how something like this could be achieved using less render entities, while also enhancing gameplay. Here's the base of the idea:

Proposal

Logs aren't all the same size. Technically, this is already true, since there are 2x2 trucks, but I would propose this goes further, where existing logs would be large logs, then a log a quarter size would be a medium log, then an eighth size is a small log. Trees would then be made of these branching sizes, maybe even becoming cut-able at the small log size. You chop a tree down, it falls over ala Salty's mod, and you have a whole bunch of different size logs from the outset. 

Splitting wood would then move into the world, with both the axe and the saw. How exactly this would work control wise would take some iteration. My thought is holding ctrl while while wielding an axe & looking at a log would allow you to split the log in the middle, vertically, aligned with your view. Do this once on a large log, you get a slab half the size the original log. Pressing F would then rotate the log (I would also keep this generally), split it again, and you have your fourths, or medium log chunks. Repeat the process on a medium log or chunk, and you'd have small log chunks. There should probably be a method of stopping at intermediate steps so that you can keep log slabs; perhaps right clicking would get you the slap you're looking at, and then you could continue cutting the other half.

Saws would work in a similar way, with placed logs being progressively split until you get planks, though I will admit the specifics of how this work I have a harder time figuring out in the abstract.

Small logs & chunks would be the same size as firewood, and could be used as such, though at a reduced burn time/heat. However, if you stacked and covered them (blocked them sufficiently from rain) they would dry out into current firewood, which would then last longer than existing firewood in game.

Why

This removes a whole bunch of crafting recipes from the grid, adding to immersion. It makes the axe feel like a more complete tool, and adds some nice early game decoration ability. It brings wood up to a similar level of gameplay that we get from knapping, clay, and metal. Trees feel closer to the real things. Firewood gets just a bit of depth and incentive for realistic behavior.

Pitfalls/Tradeoffs/Problems to Solve

The following are various issues that I've already thought of while coming up with this proposal, which may or may not have answers, easy or otherwise.

• I'm not sure there are any current structures that make use of sub block details. I'm not sure if utilize sub block detail comes with it some level of performance hit or other technical tradeoff. I think that's worth bringing up.
• Tree generation becomes a lot more complicated. When does a small tree gain log blocks? With a finer level of detail, where does a medium log get placed in a fullsized block? How many steps does a tree grow in?
• It's hard to imagine how the different log sizes connect up. Maybe they have more progressive shapes when in tree form, and snap to their real sizes after being chopped down.
• Leaves interacting with these small logs in general. Maybe there would just be an equivalent smaller leaf block that can fill in gaps, or maybe it would even look better with those gaps, as long as the leaves always touch at least a single log side.
• Inventory bloat. Small, Medium, Large, and associated chunks, turn what was just logs and firewood into... potentially 7 items. Add in slabs, and I can see this being an issue.
• Do you allow further cutting? so instead of cutting it into more lengths, you cube them further? It's logical, but could get out of hand... or maybe isn't a problem at all. 

Additional Ideas

These are just a few more spare idea that I haven't put much thought into:

• Medium logs/chunks can be used as early beams?
• Trees should leave stumps, and should have root systems, somehow.
• Further carving of wood into things like bowls, sticks, utensils, etc.
• Bark definitely should have uses. I know you can get tannins out of some types of bark, and some bark has medicinal properties as well.
• If trees have more detailed trunk structures, maybe deciduous leaf blocks can fully disappear in the winter and regrow in spring?

Anyhow, that's my big proposal. Feel free to tear it apart, add to it, whatever you feel. 

Cheers.

Edited 12 hours ago by RoastCabose
fixed typos, some additional thoughts.

[DarkGold]

3 hours ago, RoastCabose said:

Trees should leave stumps, and should have root systems, somehow.

Hytale currently works like this. It does feel more realistic, but the downside is that as trees grow, their roots replace dirt. When you chop a tree down, you have to dig those roots out and replace them with dirt you've gathered from somewhere else before you can replant another tree in the same place.

This can end up feeling tedious, and is more resource heavy than simply replanting a seed. For a game where you may be burning firewood more regularly for cooking, charcoal, and staying warm, and therefore farming trees more often, this could be an undesirable complication. Or it might be a good use for all the extra dirt people dig up when prospecting. Not inherently good or bad, just depends on what people like.

Edited 10 hours ago by DarkGold
Added charcoal mention.

[DarkGold]

Another way roots and stumps are handled would be in a game like Valheim. Stumps have to be separately removed, but they aren't a bunch of blocks changing the terrain, just something left behind that shows a tree was once there, and take a little more time to remove (and grant a little more resource for the trouble) before you can replant a seed.

I don't think the extra time would add too much to the Vintage Story experience, so keeping it streamlined might be more enjoyable for players, unless the stump could provide a unique resource, or the ability for a tree to grow back faster without replanting it from seed maybe? Something that has the stump contibute more than a time and tool durability sink to the game.

Edited 10 hours ago by DarkGold
Correcting typos

[williams_482]

14 minutes ago, DarkGold said:

I don't think the extra time would add too much to the Vintage Story experience, so keeping it streamlined might be more enjoyable for players, unless the stump could provide a unique resource, or the ability for a tree to grow back faster without replanting it from seed maybe? Something that has the stump contibute more than a time and tool durability sink to the game.

The wood at the center of a big tree's root system has been prized for some time in the construction of large sailing ships, because it is exceptionally strong and has beneficial grain to be used for high-stress connecting pieces in the hull. Something interesting along these lines could definitely be done with stump wood. 

[RoastCabose]

I think your point on stumps is probably fair. I don't want to endorse meaninglessly increasing tedium, but I think the detail of the world can be worth it. After all, much of Vintage Story could be way more streamlined, though doing so would remove some of the appeal.

Could just be a stump block that has some surrounding visuals that you can simply dig out with a shovel, no muss no fuss. 

Elsewise, you're probably right on that.

[cjameshuff]

The seeds are an issue too...only walnuts are edible, and you can only harvest them by destroying the tree, which if you've ever had a walnut tree...is not how they work. Acorns, pine nuts, etc should be edible and harvestable in season.

[Cedric the Silent]

Agreed, it gets tiring how I can remove most leaves of a tree before I luck into getting a seed for new trees if I'm lucky, I rather have way more than I ever know what to do with them and with several uses for them outside of planting new trees whether it be as food ingredient such as using acorns or walnuts as food sources or even just throwing any spares into compost pile.

Also, I would love to see elements of mods like VS lumber, Immersive woodworking, and Salty's falling trees mods be implemented into base game someday.

[Kulze]

For every realistic system it's always the same question: Does the added realism improve immersion far enough to counteract the lost convenience?

If there's a use for different-sized trunks then it absolutely can make sense. Smaller ones being readily available to directly get sticks or making beams out of it with reduced cost compared to larger logs (wastage). The ability to cut down larger sized part into smaller ones comes also in as a gameplay addition there.
If it's solely increasing item count without function then I wouldn't want to see that plainly spoken.

Root systems are always a problematic issue. They are tedious to handle... and well... while realistically expected they just tend to not be 'fun' plain and simple. Though when it comes to root systems which are visible aboveground (wetland trees form them at times) then that's a completely different topic and can visually enhance the game quite a bit I imagine. So not a complete 'write-off' idea, but likely hard to implement growth of that kind without making it feel 'wonky' in some form.

For the wood splitting itself: Having the ability to use planted log as a fixed place interact with any sort of 'prepared' wood would be a prime addition.
Plainly spoken I never understood why debarked logs are locked behind the copper age. Sure, it's a better looking - potentially at least - building material, but debarking is a very easy job for most trees. Some directly peel off, others splinter off with a bit of pressure at least, especially after drying.
So one solution I see there is to have solid logs (with bark) be allowed to interact directly with any debarked log put on top of it, enabling the usage of an axe on it when interacted with it, then getting the crafting option of what you wanna produce.
This actually could even be the introduction basis of a woodworking system itself. An axe for any rough working that can be done (planks definitely are 'rough') but tedius to take off material, shown by having to do a lot more steps then otherwise would be seen and producing less while also only working on simple (hence straight) pieces. Anything complex, hence things which aren't just a straight split then would enforce a saw, which also acts as a faster and more productive tool for things like planks. Less waste.

Also the interactive crafting is a very big thing in VS, so I'm very much for the immersive option while taking away the grid-recipes. The less grid recipes in my opinion the better.

For the tradeoffs:
- Yeah, sub-blocks definitely create some form of overhead. Performance-wise maybe, depends on the code, can go both ways. Either not even worth a thought or with a mediocre system taking up substantial resources. I see more issues there arising with spawn complexity. If there's sub-blocks would they need to be moved after growth occurs? Hence deleting and adding those again? That can lead to a ton of odd bugs for sure. Same as when any sub-blocks are at the top.
- It's a big system... and I would say 'modular' in this case. We got a trunk, a trunk forms branches, those can grow out when at least mid-sized, max length from trunk, allows for quite sizeable tree structues I'm sure. The trunk can also - with age - then increase in thickness beyond 1 block, merging branches back in (which increases the count of different blocks by enforcing to have all the possible connection combinations, or 'overlapping' them simply) and hence allowing wider growth based on with (it can withstand more force, so can carry larger thicker branches). Fun idea for sure! Likely untenable though to come anytime soon as it would enforce a change in the world-seeding itself by reorganizing how trees are spawned in general.
- Well, one solution for the leaves is that the first stage of a branch is a branchy leaf. That branchy leave can then spawn multiple leaves around it with pushing the distance further with another branchy leaf while the former block becomes a 'thin branch'. Hence more then a stick but not feasable to hold leaves directly anymore. That would create a natural tree-shape with the proper code attached. But definitely not 'lightweight' in performance  
- The bloat is only an issue as long as we don't have carts, wheelbarrows or anything of the sorts. Working down a tree would with the more complex (and hence larger-shaped) trees become a more invested process anyway. So carrying them off by type after sorting out on-site is how it would go. More similar to actual woodworking hence. That's a downside that inherently comes with this type of increase in realism. Can't reasonably be avoided without re-introducing the issue of the variety not adding actual mechanics.
- Probably wouldn't need to cube it further, too much overhead I imagine. But it gives an idea definitely: Intentionally cutting branches to make the tree re-grow it at another applicable position around the now freed space. You could start shaping trees specifically this way over time. A bit similar to fruit trees which do regrow again after all.

For the additional stuff:
- Early beams and planks should plainly spoken be a given. It goes hand in hand with more invested woodworking, meaning planks alone wouldn't do much, could use it for 'crude' decorative stuff though when going towards vanity items to simply make the world more varied looking. Things coming to mind are generally rope-tied things, or those connected via a crude hole and being connected with a wedge only, no complex forms. Rope-tied doors, crude stools and tabling, that stuff. And for anything actually decent like a crate you then would need the saw for assembly, cutting it to size immersive-wise for the connections. And chests need copper anyway so they are not and issue. Beams are needed before copper anyway because of cave-ins for a more cohesive experience and are otherwise only decorative.
- Stumps, yeah, no issue. Root system as mentioned would cause severe downsides, usually not worth those, they tend to be more problem then enjoyment. Too realistic.
- Woodcarving is a big thing. Early on it would definitely make sense to get your first potential utensils this way.
- Bark instead of whole oak logs for tannin. The highest tannin concentration is in the bark anyway, makes more sense then shoving a whole tree into a barrel  Also it's really hard to leech the tannin out of thick logs instead of thin bark.
- Leaf regrowth would be fantastic. As well as season-specific blooming/fruiting times. So seed management being a thing for trees itself. Also as @cjameshuff mentioned it would resolve issues with for example walnut trees.

All in all nice interesting ideas! Some more feasable then others definitely, be it through gameplay issues or through the sheer resource need to code it properly. But well designed I can see it enhancing the game more in the 'manual crafting' direction then having the grid being used.
 

9 hours ago, williams_482 said:

The wood at the center of a big tree's root system has been prized for some time in the construction of large sailing ships, because it is exceptionally strong and has beneficial grain to be used for high-stress connecting pieces in the hull. Something interesting along these lines could definitely be done with stump wood. 

Yes, that's called 'compass wood' Since the grain there isn't straight but curved and offers a high variety of shapes (which are naturally grown and hence keep stable) they were used instead of cut wood. Not only reduces it the surface area which takes in moisture but also has a higher natural stability for forces working on it.

Could be specifically gathered from stumps and then used for shipbuilding of all sorts, being a necessity. Otherwise also as a side-use of firewood obviously.