CastIronFabric

Well I changed my career to get into programming because of scripting in Never Winter Nights 2, so there is that

I am 58 years old and what I am saying is not complex nor controversial at all

fair point. I predict the new 'mode' will be a narrative driven experience. The functional feature list of Hytail would work in VS and not conflict with existing game play (I would think) but the ascetics, lore and possible narrative would. which is in part why I say I think it would be going that way.

what started this conversation on my side is when in another thread I made the following comment (its paraphrased) [fake quote]Given how so many developers these day consider heavy story to be a critical pillar to any 'RPG' it is the only thing I can think of that is related to RPG that one might want to create an entirely different game for. I also think its presumptuous of us to assume the VS Developers shares any one specific definition of an RPG element with them saying so [/fake quote] If a developer considers 'RPG elements' to mean 'a skill system' well that could easily be added to existing game with an option to turn on or off. However, if one wants to tell a story (or even a different story), I can see how trying to create a game that has a story but is not required for gameplay could impact the story itself. If you start with a blank canvas and want to go a story direction then making a stand alone game would make sense. Does that seem like a reasonable opinion?

please go to 'Other Games' and engage in the conversation there. I would be curious given you seem to know THE definition of RPG that is objective and true for everyone but I would like to know your source for such definitive defintion.

so its safe to say when a dev says a game will have 'RPG Elements' that could mean literally anything. INCLUDING...the developer of this game. Is that fair to say?

just a FYI: 1. is a setting in the world gen, one does not need to do a command. Although its nice to be able to change that after world gen as well. 2. Food spoilage and hunger rate I THINK are also settings in world gen. I cant intelligently address combat stuff.

Thanks for the info and I agree that makes sense, I to would not spend too much time updating a mod while a build is also being tested because that is a bit like trying to upgrade a car while its in motion.

it is directly related to the update of the release client and if I had only one question to ask Tyron it would be 'have you been in contact by many mod creators for the update' I am not sure what the proper list of things to ask would be but that would be the ONLY question I would have. Having said that I was not aware this was a Q/A forum thread. I will say the chances of me updating my client version without Expanded Foods working on the build is near zero

Speaking of the topic. Is it normal for mods to not be working by the time they have a release client? Expanded Foods is still not working and I do not see any evidence that the Mod creators are doing anything but I do not know where to look for such evidence.

I am confused on a few points. 1. you say LLM is questionable and the proceed to give me THE definition of RPG that is exactly the same as the LLM just did, which character progression and only character progression which describes almost all games. If one was to make Xskills part of VS then it would be a RPG according to you as well as according to AI. 2. So, if a developer says 'has RPG elements' what exactly would one reasonably expect the game to have? a skill system perhaps? I encourage you to answer that question in my other thread found in 'Other Games' because I got us way off topic. Also, I can not imagine for the life of me that a so called AAA gaming company would sell something as an 'RPG' and NOT have said game heavy on story. I do not agree with their view on what an RPG should have but the point is, some developers do.

I am asking you directly to please explicitly state if something is your opinion or not in the words you use, as expressed by number 1 on my list. please do so for clarity so that during the conversation there is no confusion as to which assertion a person is making is an opinion or an assertion of fact. thank you The origins of this thread I created was born in the confusion between people stating fact vs opinion, so lets just be super clear. If I felt everyone agreed that RPG Elements is highly subjective I never would have created this thread to begin with. The meaning of that can be surmised in the final question of my OP which is: 'So...When a developer says a game will have 'RPG elements..what..does..that...mean'' which is what started this entire subject matter for me because I was not confident in another persons assumption that this developer would be in full agreement with them on what that term meant. as such, lets be specific please.

no. Given how important my observation that RPG is subjective and is the entire reason I created this thread I would have to say no. But even in normal context I do not make that assumption

In this specific forum actually I am not. It was my mistake to bring it up here and I apologized for that. I actually should not engage more. I did however, create a topic in 'Other Games' and as far as why its important to me I will at this time consider that personal.

however, then they proceeded to define what RPG is. They do not say 'to me' either. Despite the fact that AI basically said basically 'character progression' as well. which can mean even GTA Example: 'RPGs, as in games, do in fact require proper character progression systems, because that's a) the historical birth of them in the tabletop / pen & paper and early text based RPGs, and b) what video games ended up adopting & evolving into various sub genres such as hack'n slash / slay, which offer the same feature but less of a story / lore & consequently'

..and change is fine, its just helpful to know that one's audience might not have the same implicit understanding of what is being said. Additionally its not like the word 'RPG' is on par with Roosevelt saying 'Bully' in its transformation of understood meaning. We aint dead yet!

right so. GTA is a role playing game given said logic. I am trying to be neutral as to my own personal definition of what an RPG is or is not. However I am responding to your definition to provide as much clarity as possible to your definition. As a side note, per number 1 on my OP list, I do wish people would be very clear as to if they are stating THE definition of RPG or their own personal definition of an RPG. If they are providing THE definition I wish they would provide some sources that make THE definition clear other than themselves.

Your response is an example of what I am addressing. Despite what @Echo Weaver says there is NOT an agreement that the definition of RPG is subjective. You are basically asserting that AIs aggregation of the internet is incorrect in its definition of RPG and that your personal definition is correct. I am suggesting that unless you can provide me a source other than yourself as to the definition of RPG than I take the stance that its subjective. As such when people say 'RPG Elements' what they personally think that means might not be what their audience thinks it means which is my core point. I am not engaging in what the definition is or is not in this thread. I created a thread for that in 'Other Games' forum

1. My impression is that a lot of people like to say what an RPG is as if they are the definitive source of the definition. To be fair, this could simply be my in ability to read properly 'between the lines'. For example if a person says 'What an RPG is...' I do not assume they actually mean 'An RPG means to me is...' so that is a bit of a disclaimer on my part there. 2. I do not think there is a clear definition one could consider actionable on. In fact, even AI (which aggregates what we say) is very vague on the question. When I asked 'What are the parameters of an RPG' I basically got 'character progression' which depending on what one means by 'character progression' could mean nearly every single game ever made. I also asked 'Does RPG need to have a story' Answer: no. 'Does RPG need to have a skill system: Answer: no. 'Does an RPG have to have Lore'? Answer: no. The computer gaming industry (I am thinking so called AAA) even since around 1980 has latched on to the idea that an RPG is mostly about 'the story'. RPG actually came from table top war games. The basic idea was 'what if you played as person instead of an entire regiment?' That gave birth to the game Chainmail and then later D&D. In fact I started playing D&D during that transition. So it might have become 'story focused' somewhat by force over time but its not its birth. The reason I give this example is that the modern context of what an RPG is might not be in alignment with those who played in the 80s and the definition might change even more so and in the end its just subjective now. So...When a developer says a game will have 'RPG elements' what does that mean? go...

oops. I missed it. I am going to create a topic there on RPG here in a bit. Thanks

I just got one thing to say on this topic. NeverWinter Nights 2 is the only RPG computer game that I felt understood table top RPGs. DM with players, DM can change make things happen at will and thus the 'story' is more of a conversation between the player and the DM instead of a strictly followed script. Personally I have always thought that the computer gaming industry obsession in thinking that the campaign books sold for Basic Dungeon and Dragons was somehow the cornerstone to the game experience was missing the point entirely. Historically RPG came from table top war gaming, not intrinsic narrative based story telling. The main sellers was not 'oh my god! the stories are amazing I cant wait for the next installment of this highly compelling story!'. Maybe that came later, but in the 80s? no, that was a side note. A 'helper' if you will If these forums had a 'off topic' section I would create a topic on this. As it is I think I am responsible for us getting off topic, I hope they do not mind. I do not mind, I just do not know if the forum moderators do. If so my apologies.

so where should I look for the definitive definition that the vast majority of people agree on? @Echo Weaver says everyone agrees with me that the definition is subjective, is that person correct?

I am not seeing that agreement, what I am seeing is people trying to define what the word means..full stop. Not what it means to them personally but the definitive definition that everyone should understand is the definition. but fair enough I will assume you are right when you say people are agreeing with me that its subjective.

So that is my point. It means different things to different people. People have told me that RPG is NOT about the story. People have also told me that it IS about the story. The question is, what does RPG mean to the person who is using the term. If I apply my definition to the phrase RPG the person might be thinking something completely different. I do not want to be rude but guys..what I am saying is not overly complicated. There is NOT a universally agree on definition of what an RPG attribute or is not. Everyone, please stop trying to define the phrase as if Websters has given you a contract to define the word for everyone, my point is the phrase is subjective.

it actually is important when one is building expectations on what a game will be or should be when its said to be an RPG. If someone says 'this is a good RPG game' and people respond by talking about the story, we do not know if that person considers a story to be an important attribute of a RPG. I am one of those people, I played D&D in the 80s and 'story' was never my interest. To me a Narrative told by a DM is not what an RPG is. Its about skill progression, tactics, numbers and the story that happens when the players interact with the world thus changing the pre-determined route. That is exactly why I felt most of the D&D computer game completely missed the point. So I guess my point is, guys..do not assume the game is going to be XYZ because they said its RPG because their personal view on what an RPG is might not be in line with yours. To be clear for those who read my posts on the other thread. I personally believe that these developers will make the other project 'heavy on story' but the reason is not exclusively because they used the term RPG. Other people do not agree with my prediction but regardless, that is a side note