Arrow break chances seem excessive

[Padwan]

I've been doing some calculations on arrow break chances and it seems to me, they are overly resource intensive. 

Lets take for example the steel arrows. I can craft 9 arrows from 1 steel ingot. They have a break chance of 7%. So on average after 100 shots fired, i will lose 7 arrows. That means i will loose my 9 arrows or 1 ingot of steel after around 128-129 shots. 

Somehow that doesn't seem right to me. If you compare that to the steel falx: That uses 1 steel ingot to make as well but lets you whack at your enemies a whopping 2125 times! Thats over 16 times more effective than steel arrows. 

Even if you compare the steel arrows to the best available spear, made of Black Bronze you get 300 uses out of the spear for one ingot vs the 128 for the steel arrows. (I know Silver/Gold Spears even get 320 but i don't consider them practical to use.) For Black Bronze arrows it would be just 90 shots for 1 ingot. 

 

Suggestion: At least bring the break chances in line with the durability of the corresponding spear of the same material:

			Spear durability				equivalent arrow break chance (9 / speardurability * 100)
Copper			140						~6.4%
Bismuth Bronze		210						~4.3%
Tin Bronze		250						3.6%
Black Bronze		300						3%
Silver & Gold		320						~2.8%

 

Now we don't have Iron and Steel Spears (why?) so i would extrapolate the arrow break chances for these materials by comparing the falx durabilities to the copper falx:

			Falx durability		durability factor compared to copper falx (250) 		suggested arrow break chance (6.4 / durability factor)
Iron			850			3.4								~1.9%
Meteoric Iron		1100			4.4								~1.5%
Steel			2125			8.5								~0.75%

 

What do you think?

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @Padwan

Like many games, missiles are OP to the point that no one would bother with melee if there were not some factor to tone them down a bit. Particularly arrows that stack to sixty-flippin'-four!

With spears, it's that higher-order ones do not exist. With arrows, its that they break. 

[Krougal]

I am puzzled why no iron or steel spears actually.

I would agree with Thorfinn the arrows seem fine. 

I don't know if I would go so far as to call them OP. I play as a hunter and I still find myself using the falx a lot, the situations I find myself in sword and board are the better tactical option. I use the bow mostly for hunting things that run away.

OTOH, a sword should last longer than an arrow. It's more a game balance thing to have it break anyway; well made and well cared for tools and weapons can last for ages. Arrows are going to get broken from time to time, there's just no way around it.

 

[Cetasaya]

I think the arrows are TOO durable and op.

And the reason why spears are more durable is cause theyre made of a thicker shaft.  I know they both use sticks but im glad we dont have to carry around Thin Sticks, Medium Sticks, and Thicc Sticks lol.

In valheim your arrows NEVER come back.  Theyre easier and cheaper to craft but theyre also very inaccurate as well.

Right now vintage story just doesnt have all that many enemies and none that can really hurt you without a melee attack with even flax gambeson armor.  Hell even the one boss we got is trivial with even that low level of armor and some poultices.  You can just get in there and wail with a copper falx and strafe their slow and telegraphed af swipes even against the most powerful drifters before hour 10 and just dominate.

[Thorfinn]

Did not know he could be taken by that low melee @Cetasaya . I take it you are talking the honey-sulfur poultices?

If I understood you, even the double-headeds? You don't have a lot of wiggle room there in gambeson. What is that, a 2-hit?

Iron+ spears would have to be wussed out, @Krougal. The bronze are already serious enough. I'm a little surprised iron and steel arrows are a thing. I suppose the balance point is the breakage, sure, but mostly loss. You can still lose spears, easily, if you aren't paying much attention to where it landed, but arrows are so easy to lose in tall grass. Unless I bring a scythe with me, I count on losing at least 10-15% of the arrows, plus breakage.

[Maripop]

Archery is just unbalanced realistically. Unless you're wearing something that the arrows cant pierce or you're able to close the distance before they can aim and hit you, you just don't stand much chance. The Mongols had the largest empire in history for a reason.
It's like complaining swords don't hold a candle to guns; the gun has longer range, so it can hit you before you can hit it.
If anything archery should be balanced by armor destroying your accuracy and different bow types.


I have reread the odds of the arrow breaking. The odds of them breaking seems rather merciful, but i feel itd be more likely just the shaft or fletching would break, and the tip would be reusable.
perhaps that could be a bonus for hunter class.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Maripop

[Krougal]

I sometimes feel like I am playing a different game than the rest of you.

The higher tier mobs hit like a freight train. I seem to be the only person who values a shield.

Maybe I just don't have the reflexes anymore to consistently cheese my way out of taking hits.

I upgraded my steel chain to plate because I didn't feel as safe as I thought I should in it.

[Thorfinn]

1 hour ago, Maripop said:

Archery is just unbalanced realistically.

Sure, but there are any number of game reasons to take a casual attitude towards reality. Especially a game that allows PvP. No real person could survive being run through by a sword or spear, yet we are expected to believe he could survive 3 such almost from the get-go. It's just that one-shotting players all the time doesn't make for very appealing gameplay.

 

54 minutes ago, Krougal said:

The higher tier mobs hit like a freight train.

Yep. Pick your battles. Foes in caverns are the same as wandering encounters in 1e AD&D -- they exist mostly to punish you for not keeping things moving along quickly enough. Do your caving on Low or Calm rift activity days, and move up when you develop the mad skilz of bob and weave. If you see one of those freight trains, why stick around? Let them despawn (those that do, anyway) and take your chances in a different cave. It's not like you get a completion bonus or anything.

 

Edited November 1, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Cetasaya]

4 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Did not know he could be taken by that low melee @Cetasaya . I take it you are talking the honey-sulfur poultices?

If I understood you, even the double-headeds? You don't have a lot of wiggle room there in gambeson. What is that, a 2-hit?

Yeah its a 2 hit melee which is why i said none can hurt you much without a melee attack.  No enemy has a powerful ranged attack and neutralising melee attacks is trivial when you elden ring strafe around them.  And gameson armor is so overpowered compared to what you gotta do to get it compared to even copper armor it's ridiculous.  So much so I rarely bother with metal armor until i get to steel.

Now if youre caught fighting in cramped spaces or more than one double headed drifter then its gonna be a bad time.  But arrows arent gonna help you in either case anyway so its a wash.

[Cetasaya]

1 hour ago, Maripop said:

I have reread the odds of the arrow breaking. The odds of them breaking seems rather merciful, but i feel itd be more likely just the shaft or fletching would break, and the tip would be reusable.

perhaps that could be a bonus for hunter class.

Thats a REALLY good idea.  A seasoned hunter would totally be able to pick out a broken arrow from the bush better than any other class.

[Cetasaya]

1 hour ago, Krougal said:

I sometimes feel like I am playing a different game than the rest of you.

The higher tier mobs hit like a freight train. I seem to be the only person who values a shield.

Maybe I just don't have the reflexes anymore to consistently cheese my way out of taking hits.

Shields take up your offhand.  And that means no lantern.  And considering that most enemy encounters take place in the dark....

That sacrifice is far too much.  Plus you need to be crouching to truly take advantage of them.  Absolutely not.  Thats how you get flanked and cornered.  Do NOT turtle up in VS.  Its a BAD time.  No armor not even steel plate can save you from getting surrounded cause you cant attack, heal, or bail when youre getting hit stunned to death.  Doesnt matter what your defenses are.  So any situation that a shield could help you you shouldnt need it in the first place.

So youre just a blind, sitting duck and you can still get ganked and flanked if youre taking on more than one enemy at once.

IMO shields in VS are bad.  Really bad.

We need a shield equipment slot, a lantern equipment slot, or have them MASSIVELY buffed in order to make them viable.  Anything that takes away your lantern had better be borderline essential cause running around blind will kill you FAR more often and reliably than any enemy will.

You dont need reflexes to elden ring strafe.  Just keep moving around the enemy if you got the room and theyll never hit you, simple as that.  They literally just stop tracking you while swiping their grubby little claws.  No need for ANY armor if they cant even hit you.  Armor is really for only their ranged rock throws and the Archive boss.  If you aint got the room then time out backjumps for their telegraphed strikes between slapping them with a falx or start slapping them with spears and arrows.

[Padwan]

If you think arrows are OP, i'd like to hear your opinion on the sling. Thats 2.5 ranged damage with next to no cost either resource wise or time spent preparing. Compare that even to just flint arrows, that deal only marginally more damage. You have to run around collecting the flint, play the tedious knapping game, shear trees for sticks, hunt chicken for feathers or run a chicken coop. All that to then loose a whole stack of arrows after about 250 shots fired.

I'm currently playing a hunter on a server and having entered the steel age i find myself using bow and arrows maybe 10% of the time because i don't want to loose my precious arrows that i spend so much time making steel and smithing arrow heads. Instead i mostly use spears, slings i bought from a friendly malefactor or just shield and falx (with steel chain armor). So i'm thinking, if i favor other weapons over the main weapon of my class, something doesn't seem right.

A bonus for hunters might be a good idea. Maybe hunters could be able to retrieve broken arrows and reuse the tip with a 80-90% chance. Or just give the hunter class a bonus to arrow break chance which is probably easier to implement.

 

[Krougal]

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

Yep. Pick your battles. Foes in caverns are the same as wandering encounters in 1e AD&D -- they exist mostly to punish you for not keeping things moving along quickly enough. Do your caving on Low or Calm rift activity days, and move up when you develop the mad skilz of bob and weave. If you see one of those freight trains, why stick around? Let them despawn (those that do, anyway) and take your chances in a different cave. It's not like you get a completion bonus or anything.

1e AD&D OMG! Brings a nostalgic tear to my eyes. The good old days!

42 minutes ago, Cetasaya said:

Shields take up your offhand.  And that means no lantern.  And considering that most enemy encounters take place in the dark....

That sacrifice is far too much.  Plus you need to be crouching to truly take advantage of them.  Absolutely not.  Thats how you get flanked and cornered.  Do NOT turtle up in VS.  Its a BAD time.  No armor not even steel plate can save you from getting surrounded cause you cant attack, heal, or bail when youre getting hit stunned to death.  Doesnt matter what your defenses are.  So any situation that a shield could help you you shouldnt need it in the first place.

So youre just a blind, sitting duck and you can still get ganked and flanked if youre taking on more than one enemy at once.

IMO shields in VS are bad.  Really bad.

We need a shield equipment slot, a lantern equipment slot, or have them MASSIVELY buffed in order to make them viable.  Anything that takes away your lantern had better be borderline essential cause running around blind will kill you FAR more often and reliably than any enemy will.

You dont need reflexes to elden ring strafe.  Just keep moving around the enemy if you got the room and theyll never hit you, simple as that.  They literally just stop tracking you while swiping their grubby little claws.  No need for ANY armor if they cant even hit you.  Armor is really for only their ranged rock throws and the Archive boss.  If you aint got the room then time out backjumps for their telegraphed strikes between slapping them with a falx or start slapping them with spears and arrows.

I tend to drop the lantern on the ground or throw some torches around, but I haven't done a lot of caving. I don't know why I'm struggling here. Although lately I find a lot of the new games combat difficult (looking at you V-Rising). I used to be a pretty competetive PVPer in many games, forget about PVE, but old age is getting the better of me. My reaction times are very poor. I just have to remind myself there is no shame in playing on easier difficulty.

If you have a chokepoint where they can only come at you from 1 way, like in the doorway of your house (if I've got nothing to do at night I greet the trick or treaters) the shield is godly. Can even fire arrows while crouched with shield.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Krougal

[Maripop]

11 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Sure, but there are any number of game reasons to take a casual attitude towards reality. Especially a game that allows PvP. No real person could survive being run through by a sword or spear, yet we are expected to believe he could survive 3 such almost from the get-go. It's just that one-shotting players all the time doesn't make for very appealing gameplay.

 

Yep. Pick your battles. Foes in caverns are the same as wandering encounters in 1e AD&D -- they exist mostly to punish you for not keeping things moving along quickly enough. Do your caving on Low or Calm rift activity days, and move up when you develop the mad skilz of bob and weave. If you see one of those freight trains, why stick around? Let them despawn (those that do, anyway) and take your chances in a different cave. It's not like you get a completion bonus or anything.

 

With swords its very possible. We arent sharpening them.
You probably wouldn't be able to casually walk away long after due to injuries, but waiting a season or two for your mangled sack of broken bones to heal a bit is rather boring gameplay.

[Thorfinn]

11 hours ago, Padwan said:

Thats 2.5 ranged damage with next to no cost either resource wise or time spent preparing.

Never played malefactor. From a game design point of view, the important thing is not damage, nor how long it takes to produce, but damage per second, special abilities, and stacking. Spears are slow and high damage, and deal damage from a distance. This combination is almost certainly why higher-tier spears do not exist in the game. The fast swing is the reason the axe came out so good.

With steel arrows, it doesn't matter how long it took, or how many resources, or even breakage or loss. On a PvP server, you can go away somewhere by yourself, get fully kitted out, then sneak in and snipe. If you are sufficiently good, the only counter is other missiles.

11 hours ago, Padwan said:

So i'm thinking, if i favor other weapons over the main weapon of my class, something doesn't seem right.

Fair. Off-hand, I'd think the fletching is the issue. It is for me. Birds do not have nearly enough pinfeathers. Or possibly there are not enough birds.

I usually don't play any class, but my weapon of choice is flint spear, obsidian if possible. That's the best trade-off of DPS for the amount of effort I'm willing to put into it. And ranged means no armor, or gambeson at most. Easy peasy.

 

11 hours ago, Krougal said:

I tend to drop the lantern on the ground or throw some torches around, but I haven't done a lot of caving. I don't know why I'm struggling here.

At a guess, probably this. By the time you get a few torches out, spears could have already taken out one or maybe two. This is a great strat for storms, but not general mucking around.

 

1 hour ago, Maripop said:

You probably wouldn't be able to casually walk away long after due to injuries, but waiting a season or two for your mangled sack of broken bones to heal a bit is rather boring gameplay.

Right. Another case where a good game design puts gameplay above reality.

Edited November 1, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Zero_]

On 11/1/2024 at 8:22 AM, Thorfinn said:

Another case where a good game design puts gameplay above reality.

I love a realistic, more mature game, and so do many others. For example, most of the time I like playing games in "hardcore" mode where when one dies they have to restart completely, keeping only what they've learned. I enjoy the challenge. I enjoy that there is a need to be stoic with such a game or gamestyle. A game that seriously punishes mistakes is to me refreshing. There are few like that. You have to remember that you're preferences are just that - preferences. This is one reason I very much hope that mod development becomes easier and more accessible in the future. Then you and I will both be better able to get the experiences we desire. Customizability is king.

[Yehomere]

I have actually made my own arrows from scratch in real life. It still depends massively on craftsmanship, but the shock on impact really is tremendous to the point where it can break at multiple points. The arrow tip is one (even metal arrowheads can fracture and flatten), the notch that it rests in can split and fracture the shaft like an axe head through a log and the fins can come off passing the bowstave. I'm actually surprised a projectile impacting so much energy is able to be recovered at all.

Game balance is totally different and I understand, but for those who had questions, an arrow hitting something is much more violent than it can seem. Especially one homemade.

[Thorfinn]

39 minutes ago, Yehomere said:

an arrow hitting something is much more violent than it can seem

Right. Plus, in any kind of brush or even grass more than a mowed yard, pretty much any arrow that misses is as good as lost. On occasion, you will hear it "thunk" into a tree trunk, and even a modern broadhead in a tree is probably unrecoverable. Not just stuck, but broken, and even if it appears to be fine, you would want to do some real careful inspection before you fired it again, just in case the shaft has internal compression splitting so it explodes into your bow hand.

 

1 hour ago, Zero_ said:

You have to remember that you're preferences are just that - preferences.

Oh, trust me, I do. I only monitor suggestion threads because I want to make sure the devs remember that not all of us want an easier game.

 

1 hour ago, Zero_ said:

This is one reason I very much hope that mod development becomes easier and more accessible in the future.

Good lord, how much easier do you want it to become? Have you checked out the Wiki on mod development? If you can read English (JSON) you can make a content mod.