More Invertebrate representation!

[unknown1true]

I know a lot of work goes into making this game not only optimized, accessible and fun, but also the realism of the world - the stone knapping, pottery and geology, to name a few features, really sell the world. It makes it feel more immersive, which games only really benefit from as it draws in a larger potential audience. I write this the way I do because I want to convince and to sway the readers into really taking this to heart. I am a University student (in Forensic Biology, if you are wondering) and have taken (a) class on invertebrate biology and plan to take several more regarding insects and how they can interact with the forensic world. Through my education regarding the subject at hand, I have come to appreciate more of the small world around me. While many might not actively think about these animals, they make up what I dare say is most of the animal world around us. Nematodes account for 80% of animals on earth (per individual, I think?) (Nematodes are the most abundant animal group on Earth - article thingy)  and while they may not be strictly visible this number backs up my claim for the abundance of invertebrates. While the game has made headway on coral reefs (love it! Porifera (sponges) and corals!!) I believe that, if those with the power are so inclined, adding more invertebrate representation to the game would make it that much more immersive. the little details do count! the butterflies are great too, but mollusks (snails, cephalopods), Cnidarians (jellies, anemonies),  some worms from the various groups that are large enough to see (polychaeta, some Platyhelminthes [flatworms], MORE arthropods (I know there are some already, but arthropods are an INSANELY diverse and numerous phyla, crabs, bugs, insects, chelicerates, etc. all give TONS of diversity and maybe adding in a small pinch of each would make the world feel that much more alive) and echinoderms make up most of the most common invertebrate groups and have pretty much metropolitan (very widespread) distribution globally. This means they are everywhere around us, and I think the world of vintage story would only benefit from bringing in some of that diversity. Brings more life to the oceans too! which is probably planned already, lol. Now, I know adding a million different creatures would be taxing, so maybe for small ones low-performance entities could be used! tiny worms that you can't much interact with, but they look pretty. 

I apologize for the rambling, maybe I have a bit of a passion. Lol

p.s. insect infestation with improper food storage would be cool potentially..... ants are a big issue IRL.

[Tom Cantine]

Insects are pretty well represented in the game so far, though many of them are just ambience. Bees are economically important, and termite mounds exist (and can be a source of food). We see fireflies, grasshoppers and swarms of midges over ponds in summer. I'm told you can hear cicadas in trees in some biomes, though I've never encountered them myself. And with apologies to J.B.S. Haldane, "Tyron, if he exists, has an inordinate fondness for Lepidoptera."

I have been disappointed that the only mollusks we find are the shells of dead ones. It'd be nice to be able to dig up clams or dive for oysters as a food source, and that goes for lobsters, crabs and crayfish as well. 

How do you think ants should be implemented, in game terms?

[LadyWYT]

5 hours ago, Tom Cantine said:

And with apologies to J.B.S. Haldane, "Tyron, if he exists, has an inordinate fondness for Lepidoptera."

My general understanding is that it's his wife that has the butterfly fascination, though I'm sure Tyron likes them as well.

[unknown1true]

18 hours ago, Tom Cantine said:

Insects are pretty well represented in the game so far, though many of them are just ambience. Bees are economically important, and termite mounds exist (and can be a source of food). We see fireflies, grasshoppers and swarms of midges over ponds in summer. I'm told you can hear cicadas in trees in some biomes, though I've never encountered them myself. And with apologies to J.B.S. Haldane, "Tyron, if he exists, has an inordinate fondness for Lepidoptera."

I have been disappointed that the only mollusks we find are the shells of dead ones. It'd be nice to be able to dig up clams or dive for oysters as a food source, and that goes for lobsters, crabs and crayfish as well. 

How do you think ants should be implemented, in game terms?

First off, I love Mr. Scott Haldane so I am a big fan of the little quote there. Such an interesting gentleman and a huge contributor to Population Genetics, a subdiscipline which I admire though I struggle greatly to comprehend it. 

For ants, I would say finding a line of them on the ground, like leafcutters, would be cool. For the pest variety, perhaps if one stores food in the open, uncovered for too long, there's a chance of an army ant incursion, carpeting the ground and stripping your shelves of all your pies and custards. Going as far as you could with the ant idea could even mean using them as stitches as some cultures around the world do.

Mollusks would be interesting to include venomous cone snails, a very real world threat. Seeing cephalopods would be nice too. 

I would also like to add there is very little beetle representation and I think they, along with butterflies, would be a good collectible sort of thing as beetles are very diverse in appearance.

[unknown1true]

12 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

My general understanding is that it's his wife that has the butterfly fascination, though I'm sure Tyron likes them as well.

So all I have to do to get more inverts in VS is marry Tyron?

[LadyWYT]

9 hours ago, unknown1true said:

For ants, I would say finding a line of them on the ground, like leafcutters, would be cool. For the pest variety, perhaps if one stores food in the open, uncovered for too long, there's a chance of an army ant incursion, carpeting the ground and stripping your shelves of all your pies and custards. Going as far as you could with the ant idea could even mean using them as stitches as some cultures around the world do.

Leafcutter ants would be a neat addition for tropical areas...as would fire ants as a hazard, heh heh. Little lines of ants here and there elsewhere in appropriate climates would be nice ambience, however, I think they should be cosmetic only if added. Players are already penalized if they store food in the open, since the food won't last nearly as long, and it's also practically impossible to keep ants completely out of a space if they insist on entering. Keep in mind that the setting is the late Middle Ages, so pesticides and bug sprays aren't really an option, to my knowledge.

The other reason letting ants destroy stored food is that completing the main story requires the player to leave home for extended periods of time. That means long periods of time where animal husbandry or farming will fall to the wayside, though currently it's not enough to feel like you can never travel. If you're allowing the stored food to be potentially wiped out though, then what you're doing is putting more pressure on the player to stay home and avoid long trips lest they have too much of their progress wiped out when they return. Not really ideal in a game where long trips are sometimes required.

9 hours ago, unknown1true said:

Mollusks would be interesting to include venomous cone snails, a very real world threat. Seeing cephalopods would be nice too. 

Agreed. I'm not sure about adding venomous ones though; yes it would be realistic, but unless the creature is easy to spot or has a chance for an antidote to be applied in time, then it's going to feel like an unfair death. Deaths in Vintage Story can be frustrating, but rarely do they feel unfair as the player almost always had at least one chance to prevent their demise.

Octopi would be a great addition for sea life though, and adding other mollusks could result in clam/mussel beds as decoration and a food source.

9 hours ago, unknown1true said:

I would also like to add there is very little beetle representation and I think they, along with butterflies, would be a good collectible sort of thing as beetles are very diverse in appearance.

Agreed. If you're not already playing with this mod, I recommend checking out Salty's Bark Beetles. You can't collect them, but it adds great ambience and an immersive way to spot the resin trees.

 

9 hours ago, unknown1true said:

So all I have to do to get more inverts in VS is marry Tyron?

He's already taken.  But I do think it's adorable that he added things like butterflies for his wife. If I'm recalling correctly, I think she is also the one that designed Vintage Story's logo, as well as did other artwork for the game.

Edited June 27, 2025 by LadyWYT
Grammar

[Maelstrom]

14 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

My general understanding is that it's his wife that has the butterfly fascination

This is correct.  Confirmed in discord when the butterflies were *ahem* released.

[unknown1true]

8 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

The other reason letting ants destroy stored food is that completing the main story requires the player to leave home for extended periods of time. That means long periods of time were animal husbandry or farming will fall to the wayside, though currently it's not enough to feel like you can never travel. If you're allowing the stored food to be potentially wiped out though, then what you're doing is putting more pressure on the player to stay home and avoid long trips lest they have too much of their progress wiped out when they return. Not really ideal in a game where long trips are sometimes required.

Fair Point.

8 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Agreed. I'm not sure about adding venomous ones though; yes it would be realistic, but unless the creature is easy to spot or has a chance for an antidote to be applied in time, then it's going to feel like an unfair death. Deaths in Vintage Story can be frustrating, but rarely do they feel unfair as the player almost always had at least one chance to prevent their demise.

I attached an image of some cone snail shells, some are pretty easy to spot. The snails, from what I remember (at least I think) are an example of a red queen race predator. This means it is in an evolutionary arms race against... whatever its prey species is, to develop new venom toxins. a lot of the toxins in one of these things, their prey is immune to, so they keep developing more. Not sure how they evolve more toxins but I'm fairly sure the number of unique compounds and peptides in one venom delivery is insane. I think the ones that are the most immediate cause of death prevent the cell cycle from proceeding, so when it enters your body and is dispersed through the blood it just kind of kills you. IRL they have cancer research uses. 

8 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Agreed. If you're not already playing with this mod, I recommend checking out Salty's Bark Beetles. You can't collect them, but it adds great ambience and an immersive way to spot the resin trees.

I'll check it out some time. I've been trying out the new unstable pre release.

8 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

He's already taken.  But I do think it's adorable that he added things like butterflies for his wife. If I'm recalling correctly, I think she is also the one that designed Vintage Story's logo, as well as did other artwork for the game.

Very cutesy!

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, unknown1true said:

I attached an image of some cone snail shells, some are pretty easy to spot. The snails, from what I remember (at least I think) are an example of a red queen race predator. This means it is in an evolutionary arms race against... whatever its prey species is, to develop new venom toxins. a lot of the toxins in one of these things, their prey is immune to, so they keep developing more. Not sure how they evolve more toxins but I'm fairly sure the number of unique compounds and peptides in one venom delivery is insane. I think the ones that are the most immediate cause of death prevent the cell cycle from proceeding, so when it enters your body and is dispersed through the blood it just kind of kills you. IRL they have cancer research uses. 

I would assume the shell sizes would be on par with the seashells we currently have in game. However, those are still very small and difficult to spot unless you're deliberately keeping an eye out for them, even if the shell is brightly colored. If one was a living creature capable of quickly killing a player if stepped on, that's likely going to be frustrating to deal with for most players. Not that most players really spend much time in the water, but when players do wade/swim around I doubt most of them are going to pay that much attention to where they're going. 

It's also why I think that if it were added, it needs to either be nonlethal damage, or give enough of a grace period that the player can treat the injury somehow and avoid death. If it were an almost immediately lethal injury, one could argue that players could just learn to be more careful about where they step...however, small creatures like that can easily hide in the aquatic plants and rocks, and I don't really expect most players to be that careful.