A new dynamic and fully customizable class system with unique rewards and game interactions

[Nastrond]

Hi everyone,

I wanted to share an idea for a potential rework of the current class system in Vintage Story, inspired by the skill-based progression model from Ultima Online.

Right now, classes feel a bit limiting and, honestly, not very impactful. I often find myself defaulting to the Commoner because the trade-offs of other classes don’t feel compelling enough to justify the restrictions. Instead of encouraging diverse playstyles, the system sometimes feels like it narrows them.

What I’d love to see is a shift toward a fully skill-based system with a skill cap, similar to Ultima Online. In that model, your “class” isn’t predefined—you build it yourself through the skills you choose to develop. The key element is the skill cap, which ensures balance: you can’t master everything, so your choices matter.

Each skill has its own internal progression and give players the opportunity to specialize and obtain more from performing those actions. As you use it, you gradually unlock new abilities and perform tasks more efficiently, allowing for more complex actions and better results over time. (Players can still perform those actions in the base game, but with mediocre results).

To make progression feel more rewarding and identity‑defining, each build would gain unique rewards upon maxing their core skills: a special functional item, a cosmetic piece, and a trophy showing mastery. For example, a Mason might earn a Master’s Trowel, a decorative apron, and a Stone Hammer Trophy you can display. A Cook could unlock a Master Dehydrator, a chef’s hat, and a Golden Cooking Pot Trophy. A Navigator might be rewarded with an Explorer’s Sextant, a nautical coat, and a Globe Trophy. These rewards celebrate dedication and give visible recognition of expertise.

These skills are modular and flexible. You can choose to combine or simplify some categories now, and expand them later—everything can scale according to design needs.

In this skill-based system, explicit maluses aren’t needed and leave off any sense of "wrote destiny". Any limitations emerge naturally from the skill cap: investing heavily in one area, like Clockmaker, automatically leaves fewer points for combat, survival, or gathering. Specialization itself creates the trade-offs, so natural trade-offs are implicit and dynamic rather than fixed.

 

How the Ultima Online system worked

For those unfamiliar, Ultima Online didn’t have fixed classes. Instead, it used a fully skill-based system where your character was defined entirely by the skills you chose to develop.

Here’s a breakdown of the key mechanics:

Skill-based progression
Every action in the game improved a related skill. Fighting increased weapon skills, crafting improved crafting skills, and so on. Progression was tied directly to what you actually did in-game.

Skill cap (the core balancing factor)
Each character had a total skill cap (for example, 700 points total), and each skill could go up to a maximum value (typically 100).
This meant you could only truly “master” a limited number of skills—roughly 7 at max level (but there were special loots to cap a few of them to 110 or 120 points)

Soft class creation
Instead of choosing a class at the start, players effectively created their own class by distributing skill points.
For example:

• A warrior might invest in Swordsmanship, Tactics, Healing, Parrying
• A crafter might focus on Blacksmithing, Mining, and Trading
• A hybrid could mix combat and utility skills

Dynamic skill adjustment
Players could raise new skills even after reaching the cap by lowering others. This allowed for organic respec over time instead of hard resets.

Skill locking (fine control over progression)
Players could “lock” individual skills to prevent them from increasing or decreasing. This gave precise control over character development, allowing you to maintain certain skills at a desired level while adjusting others.

Emergent builds and metas
Over time, the community discovered effective builds, but there was always room for experimentation and niche roles. Natural affinities between builds emerge. For example, Butchers and Hunters complement each other, Masons often work with Carpenters, and Archaeologists may rely on Crafters for tools—encouraging cooperation without forcing rigid roles.

 

Why I think this would work well in Vintage Story:

• Full character customization
  Players could create truly unique builds instead of picking from a limited set of predefined classes. Want to be a hunter-blacksmith hybrid? Or a farmer who dabbles in combat? You could do that naturally.
• Meaningful choices through limitations
  The skill cap prevents characters from becoming overpowered. You have to specialize, which creates identity and encourages replayability.
• Emergent roles instead of forced classes
  Instead of selecting a role at the start, players grow into one based on their actions. This feels more immersive and organic, especially in a sandbox game like VS.
• Better multiplayer dynamics
  In multiplayer, this system naturally promotes cooperation. Players will tend to specialize and rely on each other, creating stronger community interactions.
• Long-term progression and engagement
  A skill-based system gives players more control over their progression and long-term goals. It also makes experimentation fun—respeccing or slowly shifting your build becomes part of the journey.
• Fits the philosophy of the game
  Vintage Story already emphasizes realism, depth, and player-driven experiences. A flexible skill system would reinforce those strengths rather than constrain them.

 

Proposed skill set for Vintage Story (UO-inspired)

Combat & survival

• Melee Combat/Blackguard (melee weapons, armor durability, charged attacks, damage, bonus health)
• Ranged Combat (bows/thrown weapons, accuracy)
• Defense (parrying, damage reduction, stamina management)
• Survival (hunger/cold resistance, general efficiency)
• Healer/Herbalist (first aid kit, more bendages and remedies from flowers, faster recovery, reduced chances of injury, veterinary, cooking special remedies, stitching, creation of antidotes for different types of poison)
• Fisher (rod and net fishing, traps, bait preparation, fish processing, smoke-drying and preservation, specialized boats and gear, aquatic tracking, acquaculture)

---

Crafting & production

• Metallurgy (smelting, alloys, metal quality)
• Blacksmithing (forging, tools, weapons)
• Carpentry (structures, wooden tools, furniture, joinery that can create drawbridges, secret-door bookshelves)
• Pottery (ceramics, containers, food storage, glazing, decorating/painting)
• Tailoring (clothing, light armor, mending, special bandages for the herbalist and first aid kits with needles and threads)
• Weaving (tapestries, rugs, mats, decorative textiles, loom operation, spinning fibers, dyeing, textile finishing)
• Leatherworking (hide processing, leather crafting, armor, containers)
• Masonry (stone dressing skill and specialized tools like chisels, hammers, and wedges, so players can harvest intact stone blocks)
• Glassblowing (shaping functional glass objects, decorative items, crown-glass windows, stained glass, annealing, specialized tools)
• Jewelry (gem cutting, metal inlay, crafting rings, necklaces, decorative items, refining precious metals, coinage, engraving)
• Alchemy (soaps, tinctures, oils, dyes, preservation solutions, chemical mixtures, chemical fertilizers)
• Brewing (fermentation, beer, wine, mead, cider, spirits, hops and grain processing, fruit and honey preparation, bottling, aging, brewing tools)

---

Gathering & world interaction

• Mining (unique miner bags, veinfinder increase chance of finding rich ore veins, efficient extraction, faster mining, better efficiency and durability of pickaxes and hammers)
• Forestry (tree cutting, wood yield, axe durability, better seeds yield, scissors to obtain placeable foilage)
• Foraging (plants, seeds, wild resources)
• Farming (crop growth, yield, grafting, hybridization, natural remedies for pests and parasites)
• Animal Husbandry (breeding, animal care, taming wild animals, less generations needed to domesticate, more yield)

---

Utility & specialization

• Cooking (nutritional efficiency, advanced recipes, introducing the dehydrator and prepare freeze-dried meals that are lightweight and long lasting while traveling)
• Preservation (food preservation: salting, smoking, spicing with herbs dressings etc.)
• Butcher (meat processing, specialized cuts, reduced spoilage/increased storage time, more meat/hide extracted from corpses, butcher bag)
• Tracking (tracking animals/wildlife, more damage to animals you specialize on)
• Archeologist/Treasure hunter/Malefactor (excavation with brush and no need for glue, transform loot into functional objects, disarm traps, artifact detection, lockpicking, stealth)
• Cartographer (specialized and interactive maps, navigation, orientering, tracking)
• Climber (climb walls with ropes, pitons, helmet, icefall climbing with ice pick and crampons, ledge climbing, snowshoes to prevent snow sinking, hanging bivouacs on cliff faces using specialized tents)
• Spelunker (improved nocturnal vision, fall damage mitigation, carbide lamps, echo-location of big caves)(
• Clockmaker ( small mechanical devices, gears, levers, pulleys, traps, repair of instruments and mechanical objects, tuning spear)

I’m not saying the current class system is bad, but I feel like it could evolve into something much more engaging and aligned with the sandbox nature of the game.

I’d be really curious to hear what others think—would you prefer a more open, skill-based progression system over predefined classes?

Thanks for reading!

Edited April 9 by Nastrond

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Nastrond said:

I’d be really curious to hear what others think—would you prefer a more open, skill-based progression system over predefined classes?

No. While these kinds of systems can be quite fun, I don't think they fit the tone of Vintage Story very well, since such systems rely on a "one-size-fits-all" generic backstory for the player character. In the case of Vintage Story though, the player character isn't some generic nobody--they have specific ties to specific plot-relevant characters, and what those ties are depend heavily on class choice. Now the player could, I suppose, select a backstory from a predetermined list at character creation, but that spoils quite a lot of the main story, which is meant to be a mystery for the player to solve. 

3 hours ago, Nastrond said:

Proposed skill set for Vintage Story (UO-inspired)

The main problem here is that while this works in multiplayer, where there are other players to rely on...it doesn't work so well for single player. Currently, there are class-exclusive items, but none of them are so critical that the game can't be played without them. Many of them can be obtained via ruins loot or purchased from traders, but the player can also turn off class-exclusive recipes and craft whatever they want as well. I don't see that happening with a skill-based system, and I really doubt players will be thrilled about needing to either turn off the skills entirely to access everything, or lock themselves out of fun gameplay(like climbing) or incredibly useful items(like snowshoes or mechanical bits).

I will also note there is a mod that implements something similar--XSkills. While it's a fun mod to play with, it's also very easy for players to fall behind the power curve in multiplayer, or characters to end up feeling very much the same in singleplayer since it's possible to earn almost every skill if one plays long enough, barring a few mutually exclusive skills. It's been a while since I've played with the mod, but to my knowledge there's no cap on how many skills one can earn.

What I would rather see is classes remain as they are--specific characters with specific strengths and weaknesses--with the ability to earn new semi-permanent traits over time, good or bad, depending on what the player does in the game. Likewise, the player could also lose those acquired traits if certain conditions are met. For example, practicing archery consistently could yield bonuses to ranged damage and accuracy, while frequently neglecting ranged weapons after acquiring that trait might cause it to be lost. In this fashion, the player can have a character with specific history and ties to the world, while still having control over how the character evolves over the course of the game in a natural way. 

 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

5 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I will also note there is a mod that implements something similar--XSkills. While it's a fun mod to play with, it's also very easy for players to fall behind the power curve in multiplayer, or characters to end up feeling very much the same in singleplayer since it's possible to earn almost every skill if one plays long enough, barring a few mutually exclusive skills. It's been a while since I've played with the mod, but to my knowledge there's no cap on how many skills one can earn.

Not entirely true. Xskills allows you to earn skills via gameplay, yes, and it is easy to fall behind in multiplayer. However there is a cap on skills because of how the mastery system works in that mod. You can learn skills, but you can only master one or two of them. Maybe three if you take the right talents. I'm not sure.

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Not entirely true. Xskills allows you to earn skills via gameplay, yes, and it is easy to fall behind in multiplayer. However there is a cap on skills because of how the mastery system works in that mod. You can learn skills, but you can only master one or two of them. Maybe three if you take the right talents. I'm not sure.

Right, however, the majority of skills, as I recall, don't rely on mastery. Of the ones that do, it tended to be the very last "level" for a particular talent that required the mastery perk, but having 2/3 levels on a talent was still rather strong.

[coolAlias]

Props for the detailed writeup.

I think it sounds fun, although single player might be a bit rough with such a system.

 

[Emeal]

Hmm I think I prefer Classes as they are and then with a Skill that goes up as I do things to unlock sweet shortcuts on the most tedious things.

The Class pick is more my starting story in my eyes. Example: In our game everyone does everything, while some do some stuff more there are no obligatory specialization.

Edited March 27 by Emeal

[Nastrond]

On 3/27/2026 at 3:52 AM, LadyWYT said:

No. While these kinds of systems can be quite fun, I don't think they fit the tone of Vintage Story very well, since such systems rely on a "one-size-fits-all" generic backstory for the player character. In the case of Vintage Story though, the player character isn't some generic nobody--they have specific ties to specific plot-relevant characters, and what those ties are depend heavily on class choice. Now the player could, I suppose, select a backstory from a predetermined list at character creation, but that spoils quite a lot of the main story, which is meant to be a mystery for the player to solve. 

The main problem here is that while this works in multiplayer, where there are other players to rely on...it doesn't work so well for single player. Currently, there are class-exclusive items, but none of them are so critical that the game can't be played without them. Many of them can be obtained via ruins loot or purchased from traders, but the player can also turn off class-exclusive recipes and craft whatever they want as well. I don't see that happening with a skill-based system, and I really doubt players will be thrilled about needing to either turn off the skills entirely to access everything, or lock themselves out of fun gameplay(like climbing) or incredibly useful items(like snowshoes or mechanical bits).

I will also note there is a mod that implements something similar--XSkills. While it's a fun mod to play with, it's also very easy for players to fall behind the power curve in multiplayer, or characters to end up feeling very much the same in singleplayer since it's possible to earn almost every skill if one plays long enough, barring a few mutually exclusive skills. It's been a while since I've played with the mod, but to my knowledge there's no cap on how many skills one can earn.

What I would rather see is classes remain as they are--specific characters with specific strengths and weaknesses--with the ability to earn new semi-permanent traits over time, good or bad, depending on what the player does in the game. Likewise, the player could also lose those acquired traits if certain conditions are met. For example, practicing archery consistently could yield bonuses to ranged damage and accuracy, while frequently neglecting ranged weapons after acquiring that trait might cause it to be lost. In this fashion, the player can have a character with specific history and ties to the world, while still having control over how the character evolves over the course of the game in a natural way. 

 

 

I think I might not have explained ideas clearly enough. Let me clarify:

 

Even with my system, the player wouldn't be a 'generic nobody.' They would simply build their identity over time through gameplay instead of being an already finished character. As a single-player-only player myself, I find that discovering what I enjoy doing and then developing skills around those activities is part of my story.

 

You could still choose a starting lore and background during character creation (much like in Ultima Online, I forgot it was a thing as I always started as an advanced character) to have some skills pre-leveled around the class you chose and have a start ahead. Or you could start from scratch as a Commoner if you prefer (I would) and fully develop a unique character, or even respec it at some point if your playstyle change. It is entirely possible! 

 

 

• Pre-set classes with pre-set class lore: have a set of skills pre-leveled (120 points) and a background lore already written. A guided start ahead for inexperienced and casual players especially.
• Commoner/Advanced: a blank slate starting from scratch with the option to also manually write your own character lore. Total freedom for experienced and hardcore players who want to create unique characters and unique stories.

Here is a pre-made starting class skill set (warrior): 

and the pre-made stats of the warrior:

Warrior started with 30 anatomy, 30 healing, 30 swordmanship, 30 tactics.
Had 45 strenght, 35 dexterity, 10 intelligence and 10 hit chance increase, 10 defense chance increase, 10 mana, 35 speed, 72 health, and 257 of weight capacity. 70 elemental resistance per type. Even stats could be trained much like skills.

Both options could have the option to respec at some point freely or with certain conditions. Skills could cap with special scrolls up to 120-140 (normally would be 100). Or not, if developer doesn't like it.

A brief description of the warrior in UO:

Quote

 

There are two types of warriors: Melee & Ranged. While the Melee attacks will seem more frequent and potent than the ranged combatant, they have an uneasy weakness to paralyzing blows/spells or major fatigue and must rely on close quarters for connecting strikes. The Ranged class can hit these opponents even while in a paralyzed position. However, they lack the ability to run and attack and must concentrate on little to no movement on releasing projectiles(arrows, crossbow bolts, thrown weapons, etc.). The basic and/or mandatory skills for becoming a Warrior are shown below:

    Tactics - basic warrior damage-inducing skill
    Healing - using Bandages for restoring health and curing poison
    Weapon Skill - expertise in a type of weapon(Swordsmanship, Mace Fighting, Fencing, Wrestling, Archery, Throwing)

Defensive skills, such as Parrying(shield use) or Resisting Spells(lessened magic effect on you), or complementary combat skills, such as Lumberjacking(extra damage with axe weapons) or Anatomy(increased healing and weapon damage), are very prominent extras for any warrior to have but the only real things a warrior needs is a weapon skill and a healing method (However, you will not get far with these skills alone). Selecting some of these skills and forgoing others allows for a higher degree of customization for a warrior. 

 

 

I actually find it hard to understand how this would prevent someone from discovering the world’s lore or ruin the entire story. UO itself had quests and a world-lore to explore. The player's role is entirely dependant on the world's lore. Could you elaborate on that? If anything, it feels like the current system is more limiting—for example, a Tailor feels almost 'locked out' of combat in single-player, which makes it a class many people would choose but avoid in single player.

 

In my proposal, the base game remains exactly as it is now. Skills simply improve the base experience in certain areas you chose.

 

• Blacksmithing: If you aren't a Blacksmith, you can still forge at the standard speed, just as you do in vanilla today. A specialized Blacksmith might just be faster or eventually unlock special armors that you, as a non-blacksmith, could still find as loot or buy from traders.

 

Nothing is taken away; You absolutely don't have to turn off any skill to access everything; things (that are not critical for the advancement of the game) are only added.

 

• Climbing: it’s not in the game currently, so adding it as a specialized skill for explorers doesn’t take anything away from a farmer. It just adds variety. If you want, you could still implement basic climbing into the base game and simply make the climber able to better climb and climb on a variety of terrains, with specialized and non-exclusive gear that a non-climber might still buy/get.

 

• Sinergy: In a group that decide to climb a mountain togheter, the specialized climber might access strategic things that would help the group clear the task (like placing the hanging bivouac where maybe the cook of the group would have the option to cook a special meal).

Isnt that creating a beautiful unique story? A single player that specialized in other skills, would still climb that mountain, maybe slower and would need a bit of food in the inventory (identical to how yo would do it now in vanilla if you install the climb mod).

In the end, whether you start as a blank slate and build it over time or whether you start with a ready-made skill set and lore-background, doesnt change much. If anything, offers more to the players both single and multi.

 

• Multiplayer: my system would actually prevent the 'identical character' problem. You could have two Tailors in a group—one specialized in leather armor and another in healing and bandages. This creates a much richer social dynamic than just being a 'duplicate' of your friend or being forced to chose another class.

 

Lastly, locking the skill isn't about restricting the players, is about preventing a certain skill to reach the cap and it only serves to customize the character. For example, in an 'all-rounder' build, maybe you want a couple of skills at 70 to have certain bonuses and then invest the remaining points into an eighth skill. These are strategies, it depends on your playstyle and how you want to progress. But in the end, everyone would progress into the base lore of the world while developing their own personal story.

 

It’s exactly like the 'natural evolution' you mentioned: you improve what you use. If we want skills to decrease over time due to neglect, that could easily be integrated.

 

 In Ultima Online, you could manually manage your skills by clicking an arrow:

• 'Up': set the skill to increase
• 'Down': decrease the skill with time
• 'Lock': freezes the skill and prevent the consumption of points

Alternatively, skills could even be set to all naturally decay if they aren't used; I believe that would be up to the developers to balance.

My goal is maximum customization—creating a unique story where the world and how you interact with it shapes your build, rather than being stuck in a pre-set box. In my opinion, this is the final piece of the puzzle that would make this game truly groundbreaking. Vintage Story already features incredible innovations like chiseling and wooden beams, offering complete freedom to explore and build anything. A dynamic skill system would be perfectly in line with this philosophy, bringing that same level of creative freedom to character progression.

 

The most complete and mature games today know how to blend the freedom of a sandbox with the 'guided lore' of classic RPGs. By offering true freedom of choice, the game can cater to every playstyle: whether you choose to settle down and dedicate yourself daily to farm work, or whether you want to focus on exploration, dungeon crawling, and looting treasures. These two paths shouldn't be mutually exclusive; a dynamic system would allow the world to expand even further in the future, seamlessly integrating deeper survival elements with the thrill of discovery.

 

 

 

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Edited April 9 by Nastrond

[Emeal]

What I don't see is how all these problems are not already solved by the Xlib/ XSkills system, systems in which you can equally specialize and have special crafts via the Class.
What's wrong with having a past life as in your Class and then still discovering what you like/ like not to do? You can do it.

Personally I see too much choice that my eyes just glaze over it, how can you even see your identity in a sea of numbers and mini-stats? I sure cant.

This is why I love the Xlib/ XSkills better with Vintage Story's classes best. What am I? I'm a Blackguard and a level 3 lumberjack, lets goooo!

[Nastrond]

1 hour ago, Emeal said:

What I don't see is how all these problems are not already solved by the Xlib/ XSkills system, systems in which you can equally specialize and have special crafts via the Class.
What's wrong with having a past life as in your Class and then still discovering what you like/ like not to do? You can do it.

Personally I see too much choice that my eyes just glaze over it, how can you even see your identity in a sea of numbers and mini-stats? I sure cant.

This is why I love the Xlib/ XSkills better with Vintage Story's classes best. What am I? I'm a Blackguard and a level 3 lumberjack, lets goooo!

I used the UO example only to explain the mechanics behind the system, the 'philosphy' behind the mechanics, not the final user interface. This is just for inspiration. UO is a classic 90s game, we were nerds and spent entire weeks thinking about the perfect build. I am not saying you should do that today or that we should copypaste the UO interface.

The 'identity' I’m talking about isn't found in a sea of numbers — it’s found in your actions. Numbers are for the dev to balance the game, if the playerbase is more casual he could chose to simplify the UI. In the current system, your identity is just a tag you pick at the start ('I am a Blackguard' with x bonuses and maluses, a unique dress and that's it. You won't even think about your class anymore past that point). 

In my system, your identity is built: if you are the one who constantly provides the best tools and repairs the group's gear because you've mastered that craft through gameplay, that is your identity. You are 'The Smith' because of what you enjoy the most to do and became specialist of. And you actually get rewarded for doing so.

To be clear: I don't know XSkills, I don't use it, and I’m not interested in it because it’s a mod. My proposal is about a core game redesign, not an add-on without sinergy with the rest of the game. We are not in the mod section, aren't we?

Eventually, in the current system there are no unique identities. My proposal is about meaningful trade-offs: you can't be the best at everything, you will eventually make choises, and that’s what makes you unique in a group or even in a single-player world.

As I mentioned, the most mature sandbox games today know how to blend 'guided lore' with true freedom. My goal isn't to make you stare at a spreadsheet, but to let you 'carve' your character's story with the same freedom that Vintage Story already gives you to carve a stone block.

If you're not interested in the technical breakdown of the system, maybe try to focus on the philosophy behind it and skip the numbers altogheter, as that’s what really matters for the player experience.

Edited April 9 by Nastrond

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, Nastrond said:

To be clear: I don't know XSkills, I don't use it, and I’m not interested in it because it’s a mod. My proposal is about a core game redesign, not an add-on without sinergy with the rest of the game. We are not in the mod section, aren't we?

The thing about mods is they allow players customize the game to their own specific liking without changing the game for absolutely everything else. While I appreciate a mod like XSkills exists, I wouldn't want to see a skill system like you've suggested added to the game, as in my opinion that's a grind that doesn't really sound fun for the kind of game Vintage Story is. As I noted before, systems like those might work fine for singleplayer but in multiplayer they make it very easy for players who don't play as often to fall behind the power curve, and when that happens those players tend to start losing interest in playing. One of the strengths of Vintage Story is also that progression is tied directly to player knowledge and skill--the player doesn't need to grind out arbitrary skill points just to be really good at specific things in the game.

Ironically, the system you've described is pretty much exactly how XSkills works already, as @Emeal already noted. This kind of system might work fine in Ultima Online but Vintage Story is an entirely different game. Personally, I also think that if XSkills "lacks synergy" with the rest of the game, then the last thing that should be done is overhaul Vintage Story entirely to accommodate what's essentially the exact same kind of system but from a different game.

2 hours ago, Nastrond said:

My proposal is about meaningful trade-offs: you can't be the best at everything, you will eventually make choises, and that’s what makes you unique in a group or even in a single-player world.

And this is why many people pick Commoner and/or turn off class-exclusive recipes for singleplayer--they want to be able to do everything on one character and don't want to work around drawbacks and whatnot. I think that's perfectly fine. What's not really fine is as I said before--locking things behind certain levels in skills. Yes, every character might be able to work the base level in each skill, however, there'd need to be a way to either turn off the system entirely or otherwise uncap it so that players can level up all the skills and thus get all the perks. Normally this is also where I would say mods would be a good solution, however, I don't think that's the case here since one of the main arguments for implementing this "skill system" seems to be so that players don't have to use mods to get that experience.

 

5 hours ago, Nastrond said:

You could still choose a starting lore and background during character creation (much like in Ultima Online, I forgot it was a thing as I always started as an advanced character) to have some skills pre-leveled around the class you chose and have a start ahead. Or you could start from scratch as a Commoner if you prefer (I would) and fully develop a unique character, or even respec it at some point if your playstyle change. It is entirely possible! 

I thought about that, but...that's literally what we have now, and doesn't solve the other problems that a skill system like this poses. I will also note that despite being "blank slates", Commoners still have specific lore tied to them. It's just that unlike other classes, the Commoner is basically the "everyman" and could be anything from a farmer, sailor, or other sort of generic laborer. What they aren't is skilled craftsmen, criminals, or professional soldiers. Likewise, the main appeal of the class is that they're a straightforward experience--they have no bonuses for players to take advantage of but they also have no weaknesses that the player needs to account for either.

I'll also note that the player can already switch classes via console command in the game. It's not something that can really be done outside of console command, given that classes are specific people with specific histories, and some of that history is referenced directly by certain NPCs. It would be quite the narrative break to pick Commoner at first and get the standard experience, and then switch to Clockmaker after completing part of the story and then get referred to as a very close personal associate of certain other characters. Or start as a Malefactor, who are supposed to have heavy consciences due to past crimes, only to have all that up and vanish like it never existed and instead play like the character has been a professional Tailor their entire life.

5 hours ago, Nastrond said:

a Tailor feels almost 'locked out' of combat in single-player, which makes it a class many people would choose but avoid in single player.

I do want to note that Tailor is one of the stronger combat classes. They have a bonus to armor durability, as well as better gambeson armor when class-exclusive recipes are enabled. They also have no penalties to damage so they will be good in either melee or ranged combat--the only other class that can say this is Commoner. The only combat penalty the Tailor suffers is that -2.5 HP debuff, which can be countered with nutrition and just being a little more careful.

The worst class for combat, in my opinion, is Malefactor. They have the same health penalty, on top of doing less melee damage and having less range to work with when it comes to ranged combat. They have a stealth bonus, yes, but I'm not sure that bonus works on monsters, and stealth isn't really useful either when you're trying to confront and kill a target.

All that being said, combat isn't everything for singleplayer or multiplayer, and aside from specific scenarios, the player is going to be spending most of the game doing things that have nothing to do with combat. As for how many people choose to play Tailor, I don't know. It has its fans(I like it myself, when I'm not playing Blackguard), but isn't as popular as the other classes since it's primarily a "challenge class" at the moment.

Edited April 9 by LadyWYT

[Facethief]

27 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I do want to note that Tailor is one of the stronger combat classes. They have a bonus to armor durability, as well as better gambeson armor when class-exclusive recipes are enabled. They also have no penalties to damage so they will be good in either melee or ranged combat--the only other class that can say this is Commoner. The only combat penalty the Tailor suffers is that -2.5 HP debuff, which can be countered with nutrition and just being a little more careful.

The image of a tailor acting as a “knight in comfy pajamas” is too funny to me. I might actually play tailor next time I start up the game.

Edited April 9 by Facethief

[LadyWYT]

2 minutes ago, Facethief said:

The image of a tailor acting as a “knight in comfy pajamas” is too funny to me. I might actually play tailor next time I start up the game.

Go for it!  The class really isn't as bad as some say, and it's pretty fun to play as a "fish out of water", so to speak.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

57 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

The only combat penalty the Tailor suffers is that -2.5 HP debuff, which can be countered with nutrition and just being a little more careful.

Honestly if 2.5 hp is the difference between life or death, you probably weren't going to survive anyway. I just enjoy the ranged benefits of hunter too much to switch.  

3 hours ago, Nastrond said:

To be clear: I don't know XSkills, I don't use it, and I’m not interested in it because it’s a mod. My proposal is about a core game redesign, not an add-on without sinergy with the rest of the game.

To be clear: What you are suggesting is the core of what XSkills offers the players. It is a well-established mod that fleshes out a lot of the ideas you have already put forth in this thread and has the synergy with the rest of the game that you are looking for/requesting in this thread. I also used to think like you until I tried the ideas you're putting down here. They're not bad ideas, but over time I didn't enjoy playing with them in the game because every world wipe, every restart, every new game all my progress was set to zero. I have a way of playing. I am the hunter. I enjoy my range, damage and accuracy and taunting my blackguard friend that I can harvest more berries than she can. I think the devs know this and that's why a system like this hasn't been added to the game yet.

It also won't likely be added to the game since the devs aren't too keen on skill-based progression, but they could change their minds later. Either way, I was raised that a person isn't allowed to be against something until they've tried it or the alternative at least once. I've played with XSkills. It's fun at first, but sucks in multiplayer because you aren't gaining any skills while you're not playing. Any single player restart leads to the same conclusion: All my progress is lost and I have to start over figuring out what I'm good at.

Your suggestion here will have the same core weakness, too: Only the players that are online will be able to develop their identities. You'll find that you're better off only playing in single player with this kind of feature. And since VS is a multiplayer game at its core, this kind of goes against the tone/vibe that the devs have already set in place, so I would say this is generally best left to a mod so people have the option of playing this way in order not to screw over everyone else who is already enjoying the established systems and game mechanics. Give XSkills a try and see if you like it, especially in a multiplayer scenario. You may come to the same conclusions as me. And if you don't, you may glean some more ideas to improve the system you have here. As it is, if this was added to the game, I'd create a mod to remove it... and that's not something I really enjoy saying on the suggestions forums because it feels mean-spirited and doesn't foster good discussion.

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

And since VS is a multiplayer game at its core

I would say that VS is more a singleplayer game first, with the multiplayer option currently balanced around playing cooperatively with a small group of friends.

 

22 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Only the players that are online will be able to develop their identities.

One other thing I forgot to note earlier: when it comes to multiplayer, having players strongly specialize into different things really only works best on servers where players are playing in cooperative groups. It doesn't really work very well in scenarios where players want to be operating as mostly independent entities from one another. The other drawback such a system poses too is players getting forced into roles they don't want to play anyway, because what they want to play is already covered by someone else. In a PvP situation, players might be discouraged from picking crafting skills since combat skills are more valuable, or forced to be the team craftsman because the team wants the best equipment but no one wants to play that role. In a cooperative PvE situation, someone might want to play as a blacksmith, only to be told they have to play miner instead because there's already more smiths than needed but no one else wants to mine. And of course in the situation where everyone is operating independently...players will be likely to pressure other players into doing specific tasks because they have the traits for it; ie, "drop what you're doing and come process my livestock since you have the skills for that".

I will note that kind of thing already seems to happen somewhat with the current class system, however, the current class traits also aren't so great that classes can't operate independently or otherwise have to perform specific functions in multiplayer. Hunters can go mining, Blackguards can tackle things at range, and Tailors can go out and forage just fine. Nothing is really lost by acting outside the class's comfort zone. 

[Nastrond]

1. 1. XSkills vs my proposal:
   I’ve looked at XSkills carefully (after you kept naming it I did so, it should be specified it seems). It’s a mod that essentially provides skill points as bonuses for actions you already do, like mining, combat, or crafting. It does not introduce new classes with integrated mechanics or expand the base game’s interactions in a meaningful way. My proposal is fundamentally different: it’s about classes that unlock new gameplay systems (like climbing, mapping, specialized crafting) that are coherent, functional, and integrated with the core mechanics. XSkills just tweaks numbers, while my idea enriches the game world and how you interact with it.

   2. “Grind” concern:
   Some have expressed that a skill-based system could make players “fall behind the power curve.” I want to stress that the player characters themselves remain unchanged; casual play is fully preserved. Skills grow naturally as part of normal gameplay—fishing, planting, mining, crafting, etc.—and are not arbitrary points you must farm. Nobody is forced into extra grind. The aim is to add depth and reward activity, not punish casual play. It just needs a careful balancing.

   3. Integration, not mods:
   Suggesting to “just play XSkills” doesn’t address the point. Many player are unsatisfied with the current system. XSkills is a mod and isn’t fully integrated with the base game. For example, if I want a “Climber” class that interacts with environmental features, the base game currently doesn’t support that. My proposal is about expanding the game itself, creating integrated experiences that mods alone can’t provide.

   4. Class design and meaningful trade-offs:
   The goal isn’t to “lock” players arbitrarily, but to provide meaningful choices and trade-offs that make different characters feel unique. It’s about diversity of playstyles and strategic decisions in both singleplayer and multiplayer. That could be made optional. You are not forced to specialize and can keep playing as you do now. It’s not about giving someone overpowered advantages—it’s about adding depth for those who wants to go deeper, while keeping core balance intact.

   5. Acknowledging existing content:
   I understand that Tailor, Commoner, and other classes have their merits. My aim is not to replace them, but to expand possibilities for players who want more integrated role differentiation without breaking the game or forcing a grind.

   6. Role consistency and conceptual coherence of classes:
   A Tailor doing well as a combat class (I highly doubt so) doesn’t make sense conceptually. If the Tailor excels at armor durability, that’s not only nonsense (because the extra durability should be bound to the well crafted armor and the class constitution and usually the best constitution belongs to fighters) , but also an insignificant trait compared to what a Hunter or Blackguard should bring in combat. Classes should excel in their intended roles—otherwise, what’s the point of choosing them? If a Tailor excels as a warrior, something doesn’t add up. The idea is that if you pick a class like Tailor, they should excel in their specialty—sartorial skills, crafting with fabrics, and related mechanics—while being able to survive, but not thrive as a professional hunter or even better. Players who want combat should naturally gravitate toward Hunter, Blackguard, or other combat-focused classes. Otherwise, class choice loses meaning and that's what most players are unsatisfied with.

   7. Expanding existing systems, not limiting them:
   The developers themselves introduced the concept of classes with bonuses (aka advantages). My proposal isn’t about restricting gameplay—it’s about expanding a system that already exists, giving players more meaningful choices and integration. If anyone perceives this as limiting, it’s actually the current setup—and the preference for “everything available to all players”—that restricts depth and meaningful role differentiation. But it would still possible with a Commoner class.

   8. Ultima Online reference:
   Mentioning UO was purely illustrative, to reflect on possible ways to expand the concept of classes. My point was never to copy it wholesale. The focus is on enriching the basic idea already present in the game, keeping it coherent with the core mechanics, and giving players more meaningful progression.

   My idea is aimed at expanding possibilities rather than forcing anyone into rigid roles. The goal isn’t to restrict players’ freedom—if someone wants to be a versatile player like a Commoner currently allows, that would still be fully possible. Classes with specialized abilities would simply add new, integrated gameplay options for those who want them, without taking away the baseline experience.

   So the intention is that players could still act outside their class’s “comfort zone,” just like today, but now with the option for deeper, role-driven mechanics if desired. It’s about providing meaningful choices in addition to the existing systems, not limiting what people can do in multiplayer. Not allowing a change and an evolution of a currently underdeveloped aspect of the game, not even try to explore options, is unfair to the rest of the playerbase and the game itself, which is really deep and complex and innovative in all other aspects. I do not understand why it should remain so basic and meaningless in such an important aspect of the game itself. Nor do I understand why the system should not rewards those who play and keep it stale for everyone. I am sorry.

Anyhow, I understand your points and really appreciate the discussion. I was hoping to hear a few more perspectives too (maybe less biased against change), but thank you all for sharing your thoughts!

 

Edited April 9 by Nastrond

[LadyWYT]

4 hours ago, Nastrond said:

To be clear: I don't know XSkills, I don't use it, and I’m not interested in it because it’s a mod.

32 minutes ago, Nastrond said:

1. XSkills vs my proposal:
I’ve looked at XSkills carefully.

Something's not adding up here.

32 minutes ago, Nastrond said:

XSkills is a mod and isn’t fully integrated with the base game... My proposal is about expanding the game itself, creating integrated experiences that mods alone can’t provide.

Except with mods, players can choose to opt-in to the system if they want, and leave vanilla as-is for everyone else. A major overhaul like you've proposed is a huge change, and not one that should have a toggle in the menu that players can use to turn it on/off at will. Sure, you can argue that no one has to use the skill system at all and can just ignore it, but the reality is that players who do that are going to be significantly less powerful than those who actually use the system.

And to be fair, not wanting to use mods to achieve something is fine, but that doesn't mean that the entire game needs to change to suit the tastes of those specific players.

32 minutes ago, Nastrond said:

My idea is aimed at expanding possibilities rather than forcing anyone into rigid roles. The goal isn’t to restrict players’ freedom—if someone wants to be a versatile player like a Commoner currently allows, that would still be fully possible. Classes with specialized abilities would simply add new, integrated gameplay options for those who want them, without taking away the baseline experience.

Except we already have this kind of progression. Pick the class for the background and related bonuses, and then add on top of that by acquiring different equipment throughout the game. Want to be good at climbing? Make some rope ladders! Want to be better at mining? Time to invest in an iron/steel pickaxe, and quench it to improve the power or durability! Want to be better at ranged combat? Invest in a more powerful bow or create more powerful spears, and then practice shooting. Want to survive longer or hit harder in melee combat? Consider investing in heavier iron/steel armor, as well as quench an iron/steel falx for a power boost and then sharpen it for extra damage on top of that.

For any kind of skill system like that to actually work, you'd have to either be locking effects like the above behind an arbitrary skill gate that the player has to grind to unlock, or otherwise adding new features on top of what already exists. The former runs into the problem @Teh Pizza Lady mentioned, among other issues, in that the player is going to have to start over and go through that same arbitrary grind each time they start a new world(singleplayer or otherwise). The latter runs into the issue of pretty much every single system in the game having to be drastically reworked in order to balance all the new features that are added, but even then, those benefits are still ultimately getting locked behind a skill grind. 

I'll also note that if one is just after a point-buy system for class building, XSkills is the main mod that covers that kind of thing, but there is also this mod: https://mods.vintagestory.at/sonitodynamictraits

 

Edited April 9 by LadyWYT

[Teh Pizza Lady]

17 minutes ago, Nastrond said:

I’ve looked at XSkills carefully.

Something about this statement isn't adding up for me, but I'll bite.

How does your idea solve the problem of not getting experience in things when you're not playing the game, especially in a multiplayer scenario?