Personal progression system

[Greccen]

What I find missing in the game is the feel of personal progression, the system as it works now is advancing through neolithic to steel age and then stops, same with hunger, once you have your pottery, farming and optional barn animals, the hunger minigame is solved. In multiplayer a day one player that gets handed steel tools and other equipment skips the whole game except for creative works or lore locations.

So why not add a strength and stamina attribute system and link it with the hunger mechanic we have already in place?

The way I see it right now you spawn in with limited building knowledge and do the whole progression, why not spawn in as an untrained weak character that, while advancing with bushcraft until bloomery also trains up his body, making him a better abled player the longer he plays (and survives).

Some examples for the strength attribute

While lumberjacking tree's, shoveling gravel or mining ore you gain strength, that contribute removing those materials faster, you can balance that out with lowering the advantage a higher tier tool gives in speed while the net positive goes to having a higher str stat while still encouraging using better tools.

Fighting mobs or animals builds up strength and dexterity and the higher it goes the higher a bonus to melee damage you get and the faster you swing. In case of ranged your arrows fly faster and/or have a bonus damage modifier. By adding this you always have one more reason to go outside at night instead of cowering in your house. Or when having an anomalous event it becomes a good occasion to take the risk and level up your stats instead of idling at home.

Stamina system. Running in this game basically punishes you by removing satiety. Why not start the game untrained and slow speeded and by running it increases your stamina making you slightly faster overall when trained? Just like in real life. In the beginning you can't outrun animals, when trained you can keep up with them. When not hunting your everyday walks and errands goes that much faster. Maybe it can also help you jump higher. Heavier armor becomes more comfortable to wear when having more stamina, reducing the hunger rate (you don't get exhausted that fast).

You can link it with the satiety system. Having bigger muscles and good cardio means a faster metabolism and a higher calorie uptake, so while you're getting stronger that also means you have to eat more, this solves the abundancy of food you have later in the game, while solving the starving problems in the beginning. Maybe add a bonus to the speed you can attain those stats by how varied you eat. Another reason to not only chew that same meal you eat everyday.

This doesn't have to be static either, what you don't use, you lose. So as time passes if you don't maintain it, you gradually and slowly lose those gains. So this system always stays relevant through the whole game.

Dying could be punished by an instant reduction of said attributes, making staying alive rewarding and having healing items have more impact and meaning. 

These are just examples thought out while i'm writing up, so there's a lot that could be added still and to every activity you can do in the game.


 

Edited Thursday at 09:17 PM by Greccen

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, Greccen said:

So why not add a strength and stamina attribute system and link it with the hunger mechanic we have already in place?

Multiplayer is a pretty good reason not to add such. To be fair, I don't think this is a bad idea, but it slides more into the modded realm for me rather than a good fit for the base game, mostly because systems like this make it very easy to snowball in multiplayer so that players who can't/don't play as much quickly fall behind without a good way to catch up. As it stands, the current progression system means that players can still fall behind, but they can easily catch up with some work or help from friends. Personal player stats though can't exactly be shared.

 

11 minutes ago, Greccen said:

In the beginning you can't outrun animals, when trained you can keep up with them.

The beginning of the game is when the player really wants to be outrunning the wild animals though, given that they don't have any other tools for really dealing with such threats. While it might not be completely realistic to be able to outrun a bear, I think it's fair from a game balance standpoint to allow that to be an option for a player if they react fast enough.

 

13 minutes ago, Greccen said:

You can link it with the satiety system. Having bigger muscles and good cardio means a faster metabolism and a higher calorie uptake, so while you're getting stronger that also means you have to eat more, this solves the abundancy of food you have later in the game, while solving the starving problems in the beginning. Maybe add a bonus to the speed you can attain those stats by how varied you eat. Another reason to not only chew that same meal you eat everyday.

Overall, I like the idea, especially since I've been brainstorming with a friend on similar lately. However, I think this is maybe too complex for what most players would find fun to manage. A better solution for this kind of thing in vanilla, I think, is definitely to include a basic stamina meter to make sprinting a more strategic choice, but outside of that I think things like extra damage and workspeed should either be handled by a status effect system or otherwise be a benefit of acquiring better tools.

In the case of status effects, players could perhaps earn new traits by doing certain tasks enough times or paying NPCs for training, but could also potentially lose those benefits if they happen to fall out of practice. These benefits don't need to be limited to just damage bonuses, as they could be applied to other things such as foraging, farming, stealth, etc. Basically, status effects can do what you've suggested, but push the idea much further.

On the tool improvement, making tools from better materials and quenching/tempering them gives the player more control over their bonuses, in that they can improve more than just workspeed and can also retrieve the tool to keep the benefits should they happen to die. This also allows players to share progress with their friends in order to bring them up to speed if they've not played in a while.

Just a side note on the increased hunger for being stronger though--it does make sense, but it's also one of the major turn-offs for some players, at least when it comes to picking a class. Blackguard implements this concept in that the class is described as physically stronger and gets a bonus to melee damage, mining speed, armor movement, and total health, but also receives an extra 30% to their hunger rate to maintain that strength. So even if the suggested strength bonus doesn't kick in until later in the game, when food is less of an issue, I'm still not sure how popular such a thing would be.

[Greccen]

44 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Multiplayer is a pretty good reason not to add such. To be fair, I don't think this is a bad idea, but it slides more into the modded realm for me rather than a good fit for the base game, mostly because systems like this make it very easy to snowball in multiplayer so that players who can't/don't play as much quickly fall behind without a good way to catch up. As it stands, the current progression system means that players can still fall behind, but they can easily catch up with some work or help from friends. Personal player stats though can't exactly be shared.

Well like I stated before, a day one player could skip almost everything the game has to offer when he's getting handed out free good stuff. It's just having a reason to keep progressing or regressing if you opt to do something else in the game. You still can get up to speed getting help and do whatever you want but not at the same pace or added benefit as someone who did spend the time making it.

 

47 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Just a side note on the increased hunger for being stronger though--it does make sense, but it's also one of the major turn-offs for some players, at least when it comes to picking a class. Blackguard implements this concept in that the class is described as physically stronger and gets a bonus to melee damage, mining speed, armor movement, and total health, but also receives an extra 30% to their hunger rate to maintain that strength. So even if the suggested strength bonus doesn't kick in until later in the game, when food is less of an issue, I'm still not sure how popular such a thing would be.

That's what I meant about the pro- and regressing part. As a blackguard or any class in general you're constantly being reminded and punished if you don't play by those advantages. If you're a blackguard that has to set up a place to live or have long bouts of farming or foraging for example and don't see combat or mining activity you always pay that with a fixed 30% rate. The way the suggested system could work is that you can train that up gradually or shake it off when not using it.

It allows to naturally specialize in roles instead of choosing a class. And you aren't stuck with the class you chose from the start and work your way up, or down, to the things you want at that moment or see yourself doing in the future. So that could be expanded on in skills. For example if you tailor a lot you could get better at it and use less material. Maybe for someone that smiths a lot you could get a chance to recuperate the hammered bits of metal, finding more worms or a chance of other things than fish if you fish a lot, etc. Not doing these things makes you 'forget' and lose the bonuses gradually over time, like your attributes. It's a way to specialize in multiplay or be a less focused jack of all trades in solo adventures.

I like the game as it is, but these could add that bit more rpg flavor in the game. Thanks for your feedback.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

I'm actually working on a mod that addresses some of this stuff as a companion mod to Expanded Stomach.

[Heegrim]

I’m not a huge fan of games with skill progression systems. It just feels like another number go up grind. 
 

I like Vintage Story because your progress is based in the physical things you create. 
 

Also, lore-wise, your character is not some fresh baby that just appeared in the woods one day (well that last part is kinda true). You had a life before and your skills and physicality are based on that (i.e. the class traits). I do agree that there should be some way to earn new traits or remove negative ones in the future. 

[Heegrim]

Just spitballin ideas here for how some traits could be earned or lost:

Spending a lot of time indoors could gradually increase the Frail trait. Getting hurt and healing often would do the opposite and eventually give you Toughness for a slight bonus to HP (Kenshi-style).

This would naturally have players specialize into roles, fighter would naturally get better at fighting over time and crafters/cooks would get more frail and need protection. 
 

Similar thing could be done for run speed. Running around a lot would slightly increase your Fleetfooted trait over time and being sedentary would reduce it.
 

These should be capped at a very small amount, though. The max variation between players really shouldn’t be more than 10-20%. 
 

I think these should be hidden stats and just be expressed through traits. If people see that running around is increasing their speed stat by 1% per minute they will just be encouraged to run in circles until they reach speed level 100. The spirit of Vintage Story just feels more qualitative rather than quantitative. When people see a number, they focus on that rather than the beauty of what is actually in front of them. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

As I said, I am working on a mod that encompasses a lot of this information.

[LadyWYT]

26 minutes ago, Heegrim said:

fighter would naturally get better at fighting over time and crafters/cooks would get more frail and need protection.

The problem here is that while fighters getting stronger via fighting is pretty self-explanatory, crafters getting weaker doesn't necessarily makes sense. It depends heavily on how you want to classify crafting. If we're talking weaving and cooking and perhaps even leatherworking, then sure, the player isn't necessarily going to build a lot of strength with those activities. Stuff like smithing and woodworking though requires quite a lot of strength, and even passive activities like farming and mining are quite good at building strength, realistically, but don't necessarily mean an increase of fighting skill.

 

31 minutes ago, Heegrim said:

If people see that running around is increasing their speed stat by 1% per minute they will just be encouraged to run in circles until they reach speed level 100.

Honestly, I don't think the player has to see a number in order to do this. I tend to sprint most everywhere in the game, even when playing with a mod like Vigor(adds stamina, for those who don't know), and I sincerely doubt I'm the only one that does this.

[Byrnorthil]

4 hours ago, Greccen said:

In multiplayer a day one player that gets handed steel tools and other equipment skips the whole game except for creative works or lore locations.

Forgive me if this is a bit blunt, but if you're looking to play through progression perhaps you shouldn't be joining a multiplayer game and accepting free stuff?

Personally, I really don't see how you could get what you want in this situation without effectively making a completely different game. You could make this complaint about Minecraft, Terraria, Valheim, Core Keeper, and all the other games of their ilk. I'd even argue you could say the same about WoW-styled MMOs, where playing an expansion day 1 is a completely different experience than playing it a year later, when your randoms have already solved all the fights and everyone has good gear. These games are all (to lesser or greater degrees) built on collective progression much more so than individual progression, and if you join a group of players that's already beaten the game, well, there's no game left to beat.

I do however understand that not everyone has the friends, the time, the money, or even the desire to set up a fresh server to play with a dedicated group. So, may I offer a suggestion as a compromise: just don't accept free stuff from other players! Strike out on your own and make your own way far enough from existing settlements to your liking. From what I can tell Vintage Story doesn't have an analog to the /wilderness command I'd often see on Minecraft servers back in the day, so depending on the size of the server you might have a significant trek ahead of you... maybe that's something server providers or Vintage Story itself could look into adding.

[Greccen]

4 hours ago, Byrnorthil said:

Forgive me if this is a bit blunt, but if you're looking to play through progression perhaps you shouldn't be joining a multiplayer game and accepting free stuff?

I didn't and it wasn't really a complaint either. Last year when TOPS was a server you actually could get in without a day long wait in queue (that's a complaint) I managed to reach to a state having a homestead all by my self, only using the community forge for convencience when I didn't have an anvil myself and to have interactions with other players, donating food and equipment myself to starters  

The journey progressing was the real enjoyment I felt but it all stops abruptly when you're at a point you unlocked it all, that's the reason why I suggested these rpg elements with temporary bonuses.

 

6 hours ago, Heegrim said:

If people see that running around is increasing their speed stat by 1% per minute they will just be encouraged to run in circles until they reach speed level 100

Ah yeah, some always min/max. But it could be a slight bonus and it still comes with a consequence of gradually having to eat more and it decreases when you're not focusing on it for quite some time. I was thinking of a fluid skill system not a static level one.

Just like in real life when you start running and your cardiovascular system has noticeable adaptations the first months it tends to plateau over time if you keep running the same amount of circles and lose it when you stop running those. Use it or lose it.

Seems fair as that's how our body is designed. And for a reason. If we wouldn't lose all those improvements the strong people needing more food would be the first to go in times of sudden food scarcity  Supermarkets and the logistics behind them didn't exist 100 years ago.

[Byrnorthil]

9 hours ago, Greccen said:

I didn't and it wasn't really a complaint either. Last year when TOPS was a server you actually could get in without a day long wait in queue (that's a complaint) I managed to reach to a state having a homestead all by my self, only using the community forge for convencience when I didn't have an anvil myself and to have interactions with other players, donating food and equipment myself to starters  

Forgive me for misunderstanding, it seemed to me that your main point was about late-joining multiplayer games being unsatisfying.

9 hours ago, Greccen said:

The journey progressing was the real enjoyment I felt but it all stops abruptly when you're at a point you unlocked it all, that's the reason why I suggested these rpg elements with temporary bonuses.

The game's progression doesn't abruptly end at steel though; there is still so much to do. Have you crafted yourself full sets of steel chain and plate? Have you bred generation ten livestock? Made cheese? Do you have a full set of sturdy bags? Have you assembled all the Jonas devices? Have you completed the story?

Vintage Story's large number of parallel progression paths is honestly one of the things I like most about it. Unlike a fully linear progression ala Terraria, it's largely up to you what you care most about and what you want to divert the majority of your effort towards. I've read a review saying they forgot all about metalworking and built massive farms and domesticated high-level livestock on stone tools. Is that the most efficient way? Definitely not, but presuming they found or made a saw to get boards they honestly weren't gimping themselves much if at all.

[LadyWYT]

12 hours ago, Greccen said:

The journey progressing was the real enjoyment I felt but it all stops abruptly when you're at a point you unlocked it all, that's the reason why I suggested these rpg elements with temporary bonuses.

The thing is, it's handy to have a clear "end point" like that, as that makes it easier for a player to shift their focus in the game itself or otherwise take a break to go do something else without feeling like they're going to fall behind as a result. While it might be nice to get more rewards for investing more time, such systems can easily lead to "endless treadmills" which keep the player grinding past the point of real enjoyment, as well as lead to predatory practices to skip that grind(like level boosts or equipment kits, etc). Back when I played WoW, such a feature was implemented with the artifact weapon system in Legion, where there was no cap to the power the weapon could achieve, but the returns would be diminished for each bit of power the player earned as the weapon grew stronger. The idea was similar, in that it was supposed to present a better reward to players who played the game more without being too OP, but the reality was that the system ended up getting more heavily skewed in favor of whoever could spend the most time grinding, since gearscore is easier to see than skill and newer players literally have no way to catch up unless the more frequent players stop playing for some reason. It also wasn't exactly fun, because players would feel obligated to keep grinding just to stay competitive, despite the fact that they weren't having fun.

Basically, it's a system that's fun if you're the one that's ahead of the power curve, but it's not so fun when you're the one getting left behind for adventures, overlooked for base jobs, or otherwise just struggling to feel useful in a group activity. It's one thing if you picked a class that wasn't good at a particular activity, because you'll have other ways to shine, but it's quite another to be the weak link due to time constraints.