Enhanced movement/parkour example...

[Wave]

I've been playing a bit of old-school modded Minecraft and I realized something that exists there that I would love to see in Vintage Story, and that I consider an essential to play: Smart Moving!

(or Move Plus, if that's more your speed.)

Having a plethora of movement options is incredibly immersive, useful, and above all enjoyable in a freeform game such as this. Some of the movement options in Smart Moving that I find myself wishing I had in Vintage include:

-Charged super jump (crouch and hold space to charge a short meter, then release to do a Luigi-esque super jump)

-Boost sprint (an even faster sprint option on an exhaustion timer/meter shared with other "extreme" movement options and dependent on things like player health and satiety. MASSACRES your satiety)

-Crawling (Minecraft actually has this by default now, but the implementation in Smart Moving is better)

-Manual ledge-grab (hold a Grab button to initiate ledge-grabbing. Crouch + Grab initiates crawling)

-Ceiling Vine/monkeybar climbing (same as before, hold Grab and you'll stick to a compatible material on the ceiling so you can maneuver slowly while hanging from it)

We kind of have the proper swimming already, which is cool. Standing upright and floating around in the water slowly a la vanilla Minecraft is so lame. There's other tech in Smart Moving that I wouldn't consider essential, but is interesting nonetheless, like Diving (they call it "head jumping"), Wall Jumping (maybe a bit too anime for Vintage), and Strafe Jumping (personally I find that these double-tap-to-dash mechanics always get me killed rather than being terribly useful, but that's just me).

A perfect use case to demonstrate how immersive and nice these features would be is mountain climbing. As the movement options are now, mountain climbing requires the player to awkwardly build or dig staircases or nerd spikes of dirt. It looks and feels very sad. But with enhanced movement options like these, we could instead be actually climbing the mountain. And that's just the beginning - with the beautiful landscapes that exist in this game, imagine how sick it would be if we could make or loot real mountain climbing gear and use it to scale mountains? Or massive, imposing ruined worldgen structures? Even the simplicity of a lava-filled dungeon where the player needs to monkeybar across could be possible with these movement options. Even better if, for example, you could use your offhand to hold the monkeybar while your main hand stabs at things with a spear. Your exhaustion meter rises as you stab with your spear desperately at whatever is threatening you on the bars, because you're only using one hand to hold on... Think about it!

[Mikel Monleón]

Though I am not to keen on having unrealistic movements like a physics defying luigi jump. I do like these other ideas, perhaps without the timer/meter, so that it stays immersive. 

[Wave]

Yeah, the more I thought about it - while I love the Luigi jump, it is also a bit silly. Maybe something more like a jump + wall scramble would be more appropriate. Say you hold this new Grab key and sprint-jump into a wall that's too high to mantle. This causes your character to slowly "scramble" up the wall, starting from the point where their jump intersected with the wall and up about an additional block's height, by leveraging their speed and small imperfections on the wall's surface into a slight bit of vertical distance. This drains your exhaustion considerably, so you can't just Breath of the Wild your way up a mountain unless you are in great physical shape.

Speaking of the exhaustion mechanic, maybe it would be best to implement the currently existing screen listing and fading effects to indicate exhaustion? Rather than having a meter, have the character become focused from adrenaline, then get woozy as they exhaust themselves with things like climbing, sprinting, etc. Your tolerance for exhaustion could be dramatically improved by having a balanced diet, making appropriate use of meals, not wearing armor, and not dying for longer periods of time (say it's based on your max health, armor encumbrance, and current satiety).

[Mikel Monleón]

19 hours ago, Wave said:

having a meter, have the character become focused from adrenaline, then get woozy as they exhaust themselves

Really like this idea. I would even love to see more immersive mechanics like this with health and hunger. Why have any meters if you can inform a player in a believable way?
 

19 hours ago, Wave said:

by leveraging their speed and small imperfections on the wall's surface into a slight bit of vertical distance.

This is very much needed. It is honestly currently bit frustrating bouncing backwards because your toes didn't make it over the blocks edge. 

[Wave]

Right?? And don't get me started on trying to do precise platforming. Nigh on impossible with the slightly-floaty movement. Maybe, to go with the mountain climbing gear, you could find cleats or boots that increase traction.

I saw your post about health, hunger and nutrition. I really think our ideas could be combined together! The adrenaline you talk about could be part of the exhaustion mechanic I talked about - taking heavy damage, or heavy physical activity induces a short period of adrenaline rush, followed by a long burn of slow exhaustion. The lowered stats of having low satiety could be implemented into physical fitness.

[Mikel Monleón]

 

12 hours ago, Wave said:

taking heavy damage, or heavy physical activity induces a short period of adrenaline rush, followed by a long burn of slow exhaustion. The lowered stats of having low satiety could be implemented into physical fitness.

Hopefully the developers see this and implement it into the game. Honestly wouldn't be hard to do.

I like the idea of a physical fitness mechanic. Maybe more game hours on a certain activity would boost your stats in that field. For example, a lot of hours running would increase running speed, and the same with mining and fighting. It would be cool if certain abilities unlocked after hours of gameplay doing it. Like better terrain travel/parkour the more time you spend running and jumping, or more accurate prospecting the more you mine. 

I think it would be something to look forward to for committed players. Imagine joining for the first time and seeing other players have an advantage over you. It would inspire you to spend more hours to increase your stats, and add more long-term value to the game. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[NarielV]

4 hours ago, Mikel Monleón said:

 

Hopefully the developers see this and implement it into the game. Honestly wouldn't be hard to do.

I like the idea of a physical fitness mechanic. Maybe more game hours on a certain activity would boost your stats in that field. For example, a lot of hours running would increase running speed, and the same with mining and fighting. It would be cool if certain abilities unlocked after hours of gameplay doing it. Like better terrain travel/parkour the more time you spend running and jumping, or more accurate prospecting the more you mine. 

I think it would be something to look forward to for committed players. Imagine joining for the first time and seeing other players have an advantage over you. It would inspire you to spend more hours to increase your stats, and add more long-term value to the game. 

So a proficiency system like the first borderlands? That would be awesome instead of gun types it improves action type.

[l33tmaan]

Increasing your Acrobatics skill by jumping works in a single-player game like The Elder Scrolls, but for VS? That's just ludicrous. You want people bunny hopping 24/7 on every server? Because that's how you get that.

[Wave]

Yeah, while I do love the TES skill leveling system for what it is, I feel that it wouldn't be a good fit for Vintage. I like the way that nutrition and self-care boosts your stats in the live game - much like real life! And besides, in Vintage Story, every player character is more or less required to be a hyper-fit warrior/athlete to accomplish what they do on a regular basis. I feel like if we start off at a baseline of, "Here's what your character is capable of, physically," and then design the player character's physical reactions to trauma and exhaustion resulting from using their full power, that might be a more elegant solution that wouldn't invite minmaxing nonsense or artificial leveling mechanics.

[Mikel Monleón]

18 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

Increasing your Acrobatics skill by jumping works in a single-player game like The Elder Scrolls, but for VS? That's just ludicrous. You want people bunny hopping 24/7 on every server? Because that's how you get that.

I was thinking more realistic version of Elder Scrolls. It could be regulated with a minimum requirement per day and then given a boosted exp gain with proper nutrition. I imagine just playing the game overall would give you increased stats overtime, as long as you stay well nourished and active.

Or not, or just allow people to bunny hop all over the server. I do that anyways, lol, doesn't bother me. 

Edited December 25, 2020 by Mikel Monleón

[l33tmaan]

Sounds like more grinding. I'd just prefer more expanded movement options without any sort of levelling system associated with it. There's enough grind as it is.

[Wave]

I was thinking about how mobility could be implemented into equipment as well...

For hotbar tools you have the Ice Pick, Climbing/Claw hammer, and (consumable) Pitons/Chockstones and Lines.

The Ice Pick would be used to create a climbable surface on a left-or-right-clicked block. Then the player holds Grab to begin ascending the wall. Climbable surfaces can also be created/used on the underside of blocks, but holding onto the underside of a surface will very quickly exhaust the player character and cause them to fall (maybe a few seconds of leeway). This means that an extraordinarily fit player could scramble up a one-block overhang with a pretty good amount of wiggle room, but an unfit player would not be able to make it. The Ice Pick has the same hardness scaling/material tiering as a regular pickaxe, so in the current build you could use your Copper Ice Pick to climb any rock type.

To refresh/prevent excessive exhaustion while climbing, the player would swap to a Climbing/Claw hammer (your preference as to the name) and right-click on the section of wall they've already cleared with the Ice Pick. Doing this consumes one Piton. The second right-click with the Lines item, once the Piton is placed, consumes Line from your hotbar. The Line starts at your first Piton or Chockstone and will automatically connect to the next within a certain length (maybe 20 blocks or so, pretty generous). Climbing while on a Line prevents exhaustion buildup. The hammer has a very tiny effective range, to prevent the player from being able to cheese Line placement to get free ascents. Line can also be placed on the underside of overhangs, to enable players to consume more Pitons to overcome these obstacles.

The hammer is just a tool used to bang Pitons into a wall, metal type affects durability and nothing else.

Pitons are metal hook/spike items that hold Line. They might render like the tops of railroad spikes pushed mostly into a stone face, with Line tied around them once they are appropriately dressed. Pitons can be crafted of most workable metals, but the hardness of your Piton metal affects which stone types you can drive it into. This would be far more rigorous than the Ice Pick/pickaxe scaling. So for example, a Granite mountain wall would require steel pitons, while a Claystone ridge could be cleared with copper.

Chockstones are knapped or crafted boulders that hold Line. The main difference between a Chockstone and a Piton is that a Chockstone is an actual placeable block, and can only be used in vertical sections of wall; they cannot be used on the underside of an overhang. Early-game climbers would collect carved Rock blocks from mining, or pick up boulder items obtained on the surface, and then craft or knap those into Chockstones. Chockstones wouldn't stack very much (or at all) and require the player to either find a gap in the wall to use them, or to bring a pickaxe and carve out a section of wall while their exhaustion is building up. You can clearly see that Pitons are superior! On the other hand, Chockstones can be used on any rock type, so they're always useful as a budget option.

Lines are just woven cattail, plant fiber, or wool (when that's implemented), I reckon. Nothing special. It would be nice if they rendered on the rock face as either taut or mostly-taut physics objects that hug the surface based on how their anchors are placed, but that might be a bit tricky.

 

What do you think? These are just the hotbar tools used for more dedicated mountain climbing.

[Mikel Monleón]

20 hours ago, l33tmaan said:

Sounds like more grinding. I'd just prefer more expanded movement options without any sort of levelling system associated with it. There's enough grind as it is.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it. The whole game is based on grinding mechanics, if you were looking for less grind this is probably not the game for it. The way I see it, it's just a reward for long term players, it's not a requirement to advance in anything, and if you played enough of the game, you would get the same results anyway, without any grind. 

Skill development is fun, it makes the game last longer by adding one more thing to look forward to do. 

[Wave]

Worn mobility equipment I can think of so far includes Crag gloves, a Tool belt, Cleats, and Climbing shoes.

Crag gloves can be created using leather, resin, and twine. They are hardy, weatherproof gloves that protect the climber's hands when gripping rock. This could be translated into Vintage as either the player taking damage while climbing on stone materials when not wearing Crag gloves, or as a simple movement speed increase/exhaustion mitigation while wearing the gloves. Or both! Or something else. The gloves also help with climbing on ceiling surfaces (monkey bars, wooden grates, etc.) by greatly reducing exhaustion or slightly increasing movement speed.

A tool belt is an easy-access belt to secure items while the player is climbing. This could be expressed as exhaustion mitigation. I'm not sure if it would be possible (or preferable) to make the player unable to select other toolbar items while using the Grab mechanic, unless they are wearing a tool belt. Maybe it would be too annoying.

Cleats are metal spikes smithed as standalone items that can then be cobbled onto boots. I'm assuming that at some point we'll get cobbling as a mechanic, but for now they could just be crafted onto any suitably rugged boots item to create a "cleats" version of those boots. Cleats provide a notable change in movement compared to the gloves and belt - they increase traction dramatically, and decrease movement speed slightly on rocky, wooden, and metallic terrains, while increasing movement speed on "less stable" terrains such as gravel, grass, and sand. Cleats also make climbing (but not mantling) a bit more difficult. They aren't intended for rock climbing, but they can provide good traction for a quick vault over a hill! This could be implemented by making the debuff only affect the player if they are Grabbing stone wall blocks that have been worked with an Ice Pick.

Climbing shoes can only be purchased from traders, as they are somewhat advanced in terms of materials compared to what we have available now. They would provide no drawbacks, and increase your climbing/mantling speed substantially while decreasing climbing/mantling exhaustion.

This is all I can really think of for worn gear...

[Murkvale]

Years ago I ran TFC and Smart Moving together, it was a blast! The sprinting and double jumping stuff I never much used but it was fantastic having the ability grapple up and along ledges and crawl through single block spaces. I remember it being a bit dicey but in lieu of using timber supports you could dig a single block tall tunnel, really drove home the feeling of primitive mining.