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Stroam

Firepit overhaul

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This is an overhaul of the firepit, fuels used, and cooking.

Changes to the current version of the firepit.

  • No slots. Fuel is added by tossing it into the firepit.
    • Fuel has a minimum ignite temperature, burn duration, and energy supply rate.
    • The firepit will consume all fuel available to it at once. So a six dry grass thrown in at once will last just as long as one dry grass tossed in.
    • Fuel once ignited cannot be removed from the firepit.
    • As fuel burns, it adds energy to the fire which increases the temperature. This is counterbalanced by the firepit losing heat at a rate dependant on the temperature of the fire. This means timing it to burn one stick at a time will keep the fire going but will not raise the temperature while putting multiple sticks in at a time will raise the temperature.
  • Light level of the firepit depends on what's currently burning in it. 
  • Does not auto-ignite when fuel is added (need feedback). Instead, the firepit must be lit using a fire starter made using two sticks. Place down some dry grass and click it with the firestarter to light it. Then add that a firepit to light it. Alternatively, you can add some sticks to make a new firepit.
  • The firepit heats up adjacent blocks. If flammable this will set the blocks on fire. If it is a rock it'll heat up the rock and food items placed on it will cook. Heat the rock up too much and it'll crack which can be used purposefully to release ore.
    • pottery can be fired by building a firepit on top of it and getting it up to the correct temperature but not too quickly or it could break the pottery.
  • Firepit can be put out by click on it with a water bucket.
  • Firepit can be modded by adding additional materials to it. When clicked on by a modifying item it'll give you a choice of different possible constructions with that materials. Different constructs may take up more room. When modified the firepit behaves completely different.
    • crucible - kiln used for ore smelting
    • grill top - grill used for better temperature control. Only uses charcoal.
    • cauldron - allows cooking in the cauldron
    • sharpened stick - smoking rack, small spit, large spit

Changes to cooking food

  • Food has different cook states. Raw, undercooked, cooked, overcooked, burnt.
  • Food states apply to both the inside and outside of food items. Meaning the outside can be burnt and the inside raw.

     

How does this improve the firepit from the current version?

  • Separates the different concerns of using the firepit as a source of lighting, cooking food, firing clay, and smelting to make it easier to balance them. 
  • Adds a logical progression of cooking without limiting your cooking. You can still get great results with the basic firepit. It just takes more time and skill.
  • Reduces fuel consumption by making specialized versions of the fireplace that need less fuel. Plus fuels would be rebalanced to last longer in this setup.
  • Provides a variety of useful decorations for player builds.
Edited by Stroam
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Very interesting concept, Stroam!

There are however some small problem I have with your system:

  • Adding constructs to firepits seems rather convoluted, I would suggest adding (and removing) constructs to campfires being as simple as shift right clicking with the needed item. This would limit the system to one item per construct (and one construct per item), but it would still work with most constructs and doesn't require a GUI.
  • A grill should be able to use every fuel, not just charcoal. Adds realism and removes complexity.
  • Only one type of spit, the grill should be the obvious upgrade path (Spit: 1 item at a time, grill: 4 items at a time).
  • The control scheme isn't fully explained, but I guess throwing items (Q) for adding fuel, shift right clicking for adding/removing constructs, right clicking for interaction with constructs.
  • Cooking food on a stone block nearby seems like an interesting idea, it however duplicates features of the split/grill and falls somewhat out of the line with the other features, therefore I suggest not adding it. Cracking (turning into cobble) adjacent stones/ores however seems like a great idea that could be woven into the progression.
  • Your inside-outside food idea seems like a rather pointless way to make cooking more difficult, which I would not enjoy. 

However, I see one larger problem with this system: The way fire and fuel works. The energy system would allow archiving ludicrous temperatures (even when only for a short period of time) with any item, as long as the quantity is large enough. This makes the whole ignition temperature thing somewhat pointless, as one can simply draw enough sticks into a fire first.

I would like to see the fuel/fire system to closely mimic reality, as that would make it much more exiting. I want it to archive the following:

  • Fire having to be "build up" carefully, not being something you can summon by throwing a lot tinder onto a flame and then igniting whole trees.
  • Fire being able to suffocate.
  • Higher temperatures requiring better fuel.
  • Fire having a temperature curve.
  • Embers being an addition to the system, to further distinguish fuels.
  • Fitting visual effects that convey what's going on.

I'll post a detailed system later, as I need some time to flesh it out.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Erik said:

Adding constructs to firepits seems rather convoluted, I would suggest adding (and removing) constructs to campfires being as simple as shift right clicking with the needed item. This would limit the system to one item per construct (and one construct per item), but it would still work with most constructs and doesn't require a GUI.

I thought about that. Then I thought about a person moving around an entire smoking rack and that seemed more convoluted. The idea is these constructs would also need additional materials like clay for the kiln. Was thinking like a combination of clay knapping and the current firepit building. But from a game point perspective, I can see value in one item to firepit conversion.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

A grill should be able to use every fuel, not just charcoal. Adds realism and removes complexity.

Have you tried to cook with wood in a grill? Can't do nothing until it turns to coals, aka charcoal.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

Only one type of spit, the grill should be the obvious upgrade path (Spit: 1 item at a time, grill: 4 items at a time).

If only one type then it'd only be the small one since you can always cook chunks of meat. The large one was more for roasting an entire animal. You might be right about the spit/grill.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

The control scheme isn't fully explained, but I guess throwing items (Q) for adding fuel, shift right clicking for adding/removing constructs, right clicking for interaction with constructs.

I was thinking break the construct to recover the parts. Firepits aren't expensive so there's no need to preserve them. As for building the constructs it's be similar to how the firepit is built currently.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

Cooking food on a stone block nearby seems like an interesting idea, it however duplicates features of the split/grill and falls somewhat out of the line with the other features, therefore I suggest not adding it. Cracking (turning into cobble) adjacent stones/ores however seems like a great idea that could be woven into the progression.

Good points.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

Your inside-outside food idea seems like a rather pointless way to make cooking more difficult, which I would not enjoy. 

Correct, it's entire job is to make cooking more difficult in a realistic way, (who hasn't had a steak that burn on the outside and still pink on the inside?) to add a progression.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

However, I see one larger problem with this system: The way fire and fuel works. The energy system would allow archiving ludicrous temperatures (even when only for a short period of time) with any item, as long as the quantity is large enough. This makes the whole ignition temperature thing somewhat pointless, as one can simply draw enough sticks into a fire first.

1

Correct but if you heat things up too quickly there are bad results such as burnt raw food and broken pottery. I don't care if you use a lot of resources to get the temperature up really quickly. No one wants to wait around while the firepit slowly heats up. There have been many times while using the crucible that I wished I had a faster way to get the firepit up to temperature.

2 hours ago, Erik said:

I would like to see the fuel/fire system to closely mimic reality, as that would make it much more exiting. I want it to archive the following:

  • Fire having to be "build up" carefully, not being something you can summon by throwing a lot tinder onto a flame and then igniting whole trees.
  • Fire being able to suffocate.
  • Higher temperatures requiring better fuel.
  • Fire having a temperature curve.
  • Embers being an addition to the system, to further distinguish fuels.
  • Fitting visual effects that convey what's going on.
  • I made a fire last night super quickly with a 5-gallon bucket of dry grass with a log set on top. I don't understand how using lots of quick-burning material to quickly raise temperature is not realistic.
  • I too like a suffocate mechanic. Perhaps each item you add to the firepit takes a bit of activation energy and if activation of unburnt material is greater than total energy the fire gets snuffed out.
  • Sustained higher temperatures do require better fuel. I mean I guess if you got enough grass you could smelt anything but that would be a lot of grass.
  • That can probably be achieved with the suffocate mechanic I just outlined.
  • I thought about embers but decided that adding a longer burn duration onto logs and firewood was equivalent. 
  • Of course but that's rather subjective and best figured out during implementation.
2 hours ago, Erik said:

I'll post a detailed system later, as I need some time to flesh it out.

I can't wait to see it.

Edited by Stroam

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So regarding the fire overhaul:

  • Each campfire has a list of ignited and unignited fuels.
  • When adding fuel to a campfire, it will be added to the list of unignited fuels.
  •  Unignited fuels have a ignition energy requirement.
  • With each tick, temperature from the fire will be consumed to ignite unignited fuels.
  • The consumed amount per fuel will not exceed the maximum temperature output of the fuel in its ignited state.
  • Only temperature not consumed by igniting fuels can be used for other purposes
  • This allows for fires to suffocate, because when all temperature gets socked up for ignition, the fuel may not be able to ignite before the ignited fuel is consumed.
  • Fuel that has been added first will be the first to soak up temperature from a fire.
  • Unignited fuels can be removed from a campfire by shift right clicking, each shift right click will return the last added fuel.
  • Ignited fuel has a burn duration, a temperature radiation value and an embers rate.
  • For the first and last quarter of the burn duration, the temperature radiation value slowly raised/falls, only in the two middle quarters of the burn duration it actually archives the full temperature radiation value.
  • Each tick, all temperature radiation values of every fuel get added up to the temperature of the fire.
  • The temperature from fuel can't exceed 850 degrees.
  • Each tick, the embers rate times the current burning time devided by burn duration of each fuel gets added towards the embers count of the campfire.
  • The embers count of the campfire, unlike the temperature, doesn't reset each tick.
  • Each tick, embers get converted into temperature, which gets added towards the the temperature of the campfire.
  • The rate of embers conversion is based on the amount of embers and the temperature of the fire. 
  • If the fire is hotter, less embers get converted. The more embers there are, the quicker the conversion.
  • The extra temperature from embers can't exceed 500 degrees.
  • The order of operations in a tick is: Adding temperature from burning fuel, adding embers from burning fuel, adding temperature from embers, igniting unignited fuel.

Furthermore this system allows for some further addition:

  • Blowers/bellows for boosting the embers conversion speed and allowing for extra high temperatures.
  • Drying wood and tinder for lower ignition energy requirements.
  • The ignition progress could release water vapor particles proportional to the consumed temperature which could be useful in making a smoking rig very unique.

Regarding visuals:

  • Igniting fuel should produce smoke proportional to the consumed temperature.
  • The higher the temperature the brighter and bigger the flame effect.
  • The amount of embers is represented to some degree in the campfire model.
  • The higher the ember temperature the brighter they are.
  • When the last bit of fuel (not ember) burn out, the fire emits black smoke.
Edited by Erik

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21 hours ago, Stroam said:

I thought about that. Then I thought about a person moving around an entire smoking rack and that seemed more convoluted. The idea is these constructs would also need additional materials like clay for the kiln. Was thinking like a combination of clay knapping and the current firepit building. But from a game point perspective, I can see value in one item to firepit conversion.

How about making the smoking rag a multiblock the player has to construct above the campfire? The kiln could also be turned into a multiblock, like it is in Better Than Wolves.

21 hours ago, Stroam said:

Have you tried to cook with wood in a grill? Can't do nothing until it turns to coals, aka charcoal.

I have, on multiple occasions. It's harder but very possible. 

21 hours ago, Stroam said:

I was thinking break the construct to recover the parts. Firepits aren't expensive so there's no need to preserve them. As for building the constructs it's be similar to how the firepit is built currently.

Well, it would be a nice convenience feature, so players can quickly swap constructs on a campfire. Also, when a campfire is harder to get going, it may also be very required.

22 hours ago, Stroam said:

Correct but if you heat things up too quickly there are bad results such as burnt raw food and broken pottery. I don't care if you use a lot of resources to get the temperature up really quickly. No one wants to wait around while the firepit slowly heats up. There have been many times while using the crucible that I wished I had a faster way to get the firepit up to temperature.

Good point, but I think there is some value in having the player wait some time, as it would make the task less trivial and also allow for further technical progression. There could be some high end things like lamp oil that allow lighting a bigger fire instantly and bellows that help the temperature to rise quicker.

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7 hours ago, Erik said:

So regarding the fire overhaul:

There's quite a bit there about the fire. In reading my own I see I left out a key question to answer and that is how is this an improvement on the current firepit? The ember part and increasing decreasing temperatures are neat and all but what point do they serve for the user?

7 hours ago, Erik said:

How about making the smoking rag a multiblock the player has to construct above the campfire? The kiln could also be turned into a multiblock, like it is in Better Than Wolves.

I never played that mod so I don't get the reference but it sounds good. 

7 hours ago, Erik said:

Well, it would be a nice convenience feature, so players can quickly swap constructs on a campfire. Also, when a campfire is harder to get going, it may also be very required

You could be right. Would need to playtest it.

7 hours ago, Erik said:

Good point, but I think there is some value in having the player wait some time, as it would make the task less trivial and also allow for further technical progression. There could be some high end things like lamp oil that allow lighting a bigger fire instantly and bellows that help the temperature to rise quicker.

That's something to consider.

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8 hours ago, Stroam said:

There's quite a bit there about the fire. In reading my own I see I left out a key question to answer and that is how is this an improvement on the current firepit? The ember part and increasing decreasing temperatures are neat and all but what point do they serve for the user?

The main improvement of any changes to the firepit is that it changes the firepit from being a slightly mechanically changed furnace retexture into a thing unique to Vintage Story. Embers have two main reasons to exist:

  1. They are a fuel buffer which can be used to keep fires burning for long times without needing to add fuel every minute or so.
  2. They provide options for progression, because they allow for much higher temperatures, replacing the current fuel based max temperature system.

Obviously, higher or lower temperatures would be required for some tasks, smelting ores would require a very high temperature, which can only be archived by using fuels which add embers to the fire, which would be limited to coal and some special types of wood.

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I really like the idea of tinder etc : grass & sticks then cut logs then if you really want to get it going charcoal or long burn a whole log.  And bad weather makes it all suck unless you have shelter on top and 3 sides(and cant place next to flammable blocks.

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