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Erik last won the day on November 11 2018

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  1. This suggestion is largely inspired by the Minefantasy 2 mod. Combination crafting: This suggestion is largely based around crafting stations and at some point the player needs to craft his first crafting station. This is where combination crafting comes in. The concept is pretty simple: Shapeless crafting in a crafting grid with two input and on output slot. The crafting grid can be found in the inventory. This very simple crafting method is only used for very simple things at the beginning of the game like: Combining tool heads with sticks to make a tool. Creating your first crafting station. This is literally all its needed for and it should be only useful in the first days of gameplay. The crafting stations: All crafting stations function the same way, the only difference is the recipes they allow. When clicking at the side of any crafting station, the GUI of that crafting station is opened. The GUI of each crafting station contains: Nine slots of storage, which are the input and output A recipe/output selector (like terraria or subnautica) A side configuration widget (explained further down) When a recipe has been selected and the ingredients have been put into the storage slots, the player needs to start crafting. When looking at the top of the crafting station, a progress bar and icon for the required tool: When the wrong tool is selected, the icon will turn red. Right clicking will fill a bit of the progress bar. Holding right click will count as one click, spamming right click will not move the bar, but cause it to blink red. The player should wait a bit after each right click and clicking in a specific rhythm will yield the best results. The time between the clicks is dependent on the tool and tool tier, a hammer is faster than a saw and a steel saw is faster than a copper saw. An empty hand is also a tool. More complex recipes may require use of multiple tools. When enough progress with one tools has been made, the icon switches to another tool. Examples: For crafting a table, the player may saw five times and hit with a hammer twice. For crafting a clock, the player may use his hand two times, wrench two times, hammer one time, wrench five times and use his hand once. This interactivity makes crafting take some time and feel like crafting and it also makes automation much more interesting, especially for complex recipes. The crafted product usually goes into the storage of the crafting bench and when that is full, it will go into the players inventory and when that is full, it will drop onto the ground. The side configuration widget or: Where did my firewood go? If a player places a chest next to a crafting station, the crafting station will automatically draw ingredients from it. This solves a lot of storage problems and is a huge quantity of life feature. But what about the output? This is where the side configuration widget comes in, it lets the player configure, which of the three sides are inputs to draw ingredients from or outputs to put the items or both or none. If the output can be stacked in the world, like firewood, it can also be output on an empty block to form and extend such a stack. The front side of a crafting can't be configured an will not interact with inventories, because it needs to be a point of reference for configuring the other sides and a way to select a recipe. The feature closely resembles the machine configuration of the Thermal Expansion mod: Progression: Having different crafting stations also allows for gating the progression and mods being introduced into the progression by their own crafting stations. I image the vanilla progression with crafting stations to be somewhat like this: Flint tool using knapping and combination crafting Chopping station by combining an axe with a wood block Firewood by chopping wood using the axe on the chopping station Pottery and basic copper tools Copper nains and wood used to create a carpentry station on the chopping station Carpentry station for cutting wood with a saw and most other crafting Stone working station for working with stone Engineering station for mechanical power and automation
  2. Erik


    I generally like this idea, especially when perk unlock requirements are designed to take the place of achievements. Some suggestions I have would be to also provide a list of all un-unlocked perks in the perk menu, listing their unlock requirement and maybe effect. This removes the need of players looking at a wiki page and make perks capable of being achievements. Furthermore, perks should be able to require multiple perk slots to be equipped, which allows to have perks with different power levels. Also, the activation requirement should be renamed to activation condition, as I first thought it would be some thing the player has to do to unlock the (passive/always active) effect of the perk, like a second unlock requirement. I also don't like the idea of a timer for equipping perks, I would rather only be able to equip/swap (maybe a limited number of) perks at a certain time and/or location. It would probably be best to allow players to equip perks instantly at any time, but make unequipping/swapping perks require special conditions, like only being able to unequip/swap perks at full moon.
  3. Erik

    v1.7.8 The Neolithic Mod

    Some first impressions on this mod: First of, the amount of effort and work put into this mod is simply amazing, I feel like that needs to be mentioned, as I know from personal experiences, that making mods is very work intensive. What this mod does really good: Predators sleeping is something that is very cool and makes the game more fun, as wolves won't constantly attack you. It seems a little bugged at times (when the sleeping wolf attacks you and is always looking towards you) Dead animals are beautifully realized, with realistic skinning processes. Problems with this mod: The mod is not really intuitive and lacks documentation. There are a lot of things the player can knap right away, but most of this things are useless at the beginning and overwhelmed me a bit. I figured out quickly that the hand tools are supposed to be your first tools, however I haven't yet discovered how to create the materials for the rope that is required for the stone tools. The changes to wood (different log sizes) make inventory management really painful. VS's inventory is just not build for this type of stuff. There is a lot of "microcrafting" involved, i.e. crafting steps just to make things only used in other crafting steps, which can get a bit annoying and does cause more inventory problems. There are a lot of oddly specific wooden blocks for creating rooftops. While it enables making good looking roofs, it is not user friendly at all. How problems could be fixed: A simple solution for making the progression more streamlined, would be to remove stone tool heads and use the hand-versions in the crafting recipes instead. Or there could be only one "stone hand tool" which is used as an axe, knife and hammer at the same time (which is also somewhat realistic). More tooltips on things and documentation on this forum topic. Just stick with the normal wood logs, or at least allow players to turn the thinner variants into firewood. Maybe a bigger starting inventory or a weight based inventory (which sadly wouldn't be easy to implement). Less crafting steps. Fixing the rooftops isn't easy, it would probably require dynamic model selection or something in the line of the Carpenter's Blocks mod. Anyhow, these are just my subjective first impressions on the mod, feel free to ignore them if they don't fit your vision, this is your mod.
  4. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    We both want the same thing, crushing ores being a process the player does in Vintage Story, we just want to archive it in different ways. I just don't want crushing to be a useless pain the player has to go through without reason, just to make the crafting chain longer and metal tools more difficult to get. I want to make crushing ores logical, not on a realism perspective, but on a gameplay perspective: When not crushing you ores gives you less metal, then there is a gameplay incentive to crush ores. And because players would be worse of not crushing ores, when they finally have build a metal hammer, they will crush ores, because it will give them huge benefits. And because they couldn't crush ores before they had a metal hammer, they know what it means not to crush ores, how much ore they "wasted". Crushing ores therefore, while being optional, can be used as a soft requirement, with higher tier stuff requiring more metal. The mechanical hammer would still be very relevant, as it makes the progress of crushing ores faster, more efficient and not eating your hammers durability, while also being able to be automated. This alone is inventive enough to make the mechanical hammer very viable for most players, but it can be further enhanced: Some ores may only be crush-able by the mechanical hammer, for example iron. The mechanical hammer could even be required for processing some things, like geodes, which could make it a required part of the tech tree later on. To clean up one last thing: Crushing wouldn't cause a higher ore output, but not crushing would cause a lower ore output. It's just a change of wording, meaning the same thing as "crushing causes higher ore output", but maybe it helps this discussion. The ore output is of course only relative and not further discussed in any of my posts. I fell like I repeated myself a lot in the last few posts and that probably means that this discussion isn't really going anywhere, without some outside opinions.
  5. Erik

    The 3 basic mechanical power

    Do not forget steam engines. While they were invented much later than the other methods you mention, they were often used to provide mechanical and only much later to generate electricity.
  6. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    There isn't a definitive line. My point is just to design interesting gameplay and not depictions of the real world. Could butchering be an interesting piece of gameplay? Hell yeah! There are many interesting things that butchering could enable gameplay wise and it will add a lot of immersion. Why smelting? Maybe to gate the player to do pottery and charcoal? Maybe because the game would be boring and pointless without smelting? True, but we can make the player feel like it isn't required, but his decision, because it is fun and/or rewarding. And that is why we shouldn't design gameplay to be realistic and hardcore, but to be fun and rewarding (that doesn't mean hardcore and realistic can't be fun, just that it isn't always).
  7. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    The reward should be doubled ore output, which makes the optional effort really worth it and makes crushing ores something that players want to do and not something they are forced to do. For this to apply, ore crushing needs to be optional. Well, ore crushing is a case of metal progression and the main question is, if it should be optional. Most suggestions on this thread seem to be designed to be realistic, not to provide rewarding, and easy to understand, streamlined and most notably fun gameplay. "Hardcore" does not translate into "better".
  8. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    We may have very different opinions on how to do meaningful, rewarding progression: If I understand correctly, you seem to want a "wide progression", where most of the mechanics of the game are available at the start (i.e. stone age) in some way or form, with all mechanics being effectively required to progress. The later stages of the game just "upgrade" these mechanics and make them faster or more efficient. My way of doing progression would be more akin to an inverted pyramid, starting with very few mechanics and adding new mechanics with each stage of progression, with "upgrades" being very rare and many mechanics being introduced as optional first to become required later in the progression. Both ways of doing progression have their advantages and disadvantages and further discussion of this would probably be fit better on another thread. I was just referring to my previous post about post about ore crushing being optional at first, then requiring a mechanical hammer for higher tier ores and then being required for highest tier ores. Sorry for the confusing term. This is realism, not gameplay oriented. I get that people used water powered hammers and horse powered mills, but that doesn't mean they should be in the game. We will have a mechanical power network with hopefully interesting design problems and that network should be put to use, as it would be the most mechanically interesting (balancing torque and speed) and easiest way to add a mechanical hammer to the game, with multiple options of powering it. The act of crushing ores should imo be rewarding, even with a hammer and not something boring or even annoying just to make using the powered crusher feel more rewarding.
  9. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    I meant gameplay reasons, how it would benefit gameplay, not realism. While stone hammers did exist, they aren't very useful or safe for crushing ores and they would also go against the staged progression I outlined, making crushing ores less rewarding.
  10. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    Extra durability compared to what? Sure, making things harder also makes them more rewarding, but rewards are measured in relations. Only when there is a way to get fewer rewards, the rewards will truly feel more rewarding. When the player things it was his decision that have him better rewards, the rewards will feel even more rewarding.
  11. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    Why should there be a large number of hammery machines? It doesn't exactly have to be that animal mill, just some form of animal mill (just for energy generation, not for milling). Progression should come in small steps, not all at once. The player can only craft a hammer when he has metal, so it is essentially needed to skip the crushing on the first batch of ore. The ability to get more out of ore is something very desirable, so most players will make use of it when they have ore, it will feel like they archived something, because they progressed. When the player would need to crush the ores in the first place with some stone hammer, it wouldn't be a rewarding progression step, the player wouldn't get more ore for his work, because there is no way to get less ore. What remains is doing a lot of things to archive a simple task. This can overwhelm or confuse some players, because they wonder why they can't smelt their ores, which is bad.
  12. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    @redram Game design > Historical accuracy/realism Why should there be a water mill hammer, when there is already a waterwheel? When there is a power system, ideally machines would use the power system and not going for a combined machine-generator approach. That would also make the machine way more flexible and realistic in a sense, as it didn't matter what exactly powered the mechanical hammer, as long as it would get enough power. On the larger question: I think crushing ores for extra returns should be optional. As it is in modded minecraft, most players like to put in that extra effort, even if optional (There is a reason almost every tech mod has some form of ore duplication). Some things however, like iron blooms, should require that extra effort of either smacking it with a hammer (a lot) or building a mechanical hammer that smashes it. This is both good on a game design and realism part, as it forces the player to progress, without overwhelming him. Some things could even require a strictly mechanical hammer, supplied by a very high torque, like rare endgame geodes containing endgame metals for endgame steels or alloys (This would be an interesting and somewhat believable way to introduce metals like aluminum or titanium). If a machine isn't useful it shouldn't be in the game. The players will build useful machines even when they are optional, as long as progression renders them not obsolete. Making machines optional at first and later required for progression helps smooth out the progression curve. In most cases it isn't (or better shouldn't) even that hard to build the machines, but they shouldn't be the easy solution to all problems (looks angrily at EnderIO conduits), but pose their own problems that the player can either live with or fix via (hopefully interesting) automation. This should obviously encourage automation, but I don't think automation should be required for progression, just highly encouraged.
  13. Erik

    Metal progress branching

    @redram While I generally like the idea of more involved metal/ore processing, I think your way of essentially having three machines that accomplish the the same thing needs some streamlining. Since there will be a mechanical power system, I think the "crushing device" should utilize it, requiring a lot of torque (maybe based on ore type), the speed reflecting in the speed of the crushing operation. I think a powered hammer (like the monjolo, but not water driven) would be the best representation of a crushing device, as it would look more spectacular than the stamp mill. Maybe have different material hammer heads for some additional progression gating or alternative uses (axe head to turn it into a early game wood processing device, before a mechanical saw which would require iron or steel). Keeping the powered hammer GUI-less would also be something easily possible, as the hammerhead could always smash on a block in the world, so any block (or item) at that location would be crushed, which could make for some interesting automation solutions involving pistons and perfect timing. On another topic, the horse mill shouldn't be a device, but an early game producer of mechanical power.
  14. Erik

    Mod/Feature Request: Growing Trees

    @copygirl The base mod adds wider trees! To be fair, it just added it six days ago and is still considered alpha state (while being very stable).
  15. Erik

    Mod/Feature Request: Growing Trees

    @copygirl had started a mod like that: https://github.com/copygirl/GrowingTree Since the repo hasn't been updated in ten months and the currently implemented features are just branch-blocks and their placement, I suspect the mod won't release anytime soon, but there is still hope that it might come someday.

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