Bummed_Machinist

Yes that's sort of it! Though maybe I should edit my original post to be clearer. The concept I was thinking of was less "efficient in materials" and more "efficiency in terms of time." Hence why I said it would be impossible to implement fully in current vintage story. A class, possibly the weaver as you say, could make Leather armor/clothing faster, if said process is given a time consuming in-world crafting system. Also why I suggested the Hunter getting a unique "F-menu" pattern for in-world knapping (the 3x3), it wouldn't have to be that but it was an example (since the hunter would be making flint knives and arrowheads for hunting, why not allow him to make them faster?) It could give economic specialties that make sense, without making other classes inefficient at the task (less drops, worse crafting results in terms of output). Hence what I meant by not needing maluses, I guess I meant economic maluses, you could still potentially have speed maluses. I wouldn't want more efficient recipes in terms of materials, like the leather armor recipe you suggested, as I said in the first post, that has the negative effect of discouraging people from making those crafts until "X" player would be online for max efficiency. I am talking making class' economic features more speed and ease of labor based!

I get the feeling you aren't looking at my words from my position, when I suggest something like that. Put simply, I would not agree getting rid of maluses with the current class system. I was talking about in the context of a potential class system that best synergizes with Vintage Story's structure/progression (that i previously proposed), where bonuses are primarily crafting/speed based and loot related bonuses/maluses are removed. You can still have maluses and bonuses to combat I suppose. I feel I mostly got wrapped up in talking about the economic aspect of class integration; that's where I was coming from when I spoke of removing maluses.

Exactly why this thread is "What kind of system would best compliment Vintage Story's established structure/mechanics" and not "what system would people like the best," because while you can get a general answer to the latter, it really isn't as helpful for a game with a very niche, unswerving vision. That said, you could get around that feeling of Player "limitation," by giving classes no downsides, just niches they excel in (I am speaking with purely speed based/in-world crafting based classes in mind.) But this has it's own implications to consider (The place of the commoner, and so on). --- To EchoWeaver; Well, the point of current special recipes is that they give you exclusive material benefits (special items no other class can obtain.) The suggestion I gave would only operate in terms of saved time, easier/faster in world crafting, not bonus items/materials. What I implied in my prior post is that this is taking the speed bonuses of default classes and expanding on them, while doing away with drop-rate maluses. Classes would then be a decision on what aspects of the game a given player might want to make more relaxed/faster, which would have the side effect of specialization in multiplayer server, without obsoleting other characters from doing those same crafts.

I think out of any feature, class has the most mixed sentiment about it. There are people who don't like the forced differentiation between players and avoid it entirely, disable all unique recipes, download Xskills as an alternative... then there are people who love the specialization, download more classes, and make the differences even more severe! I want talk about this system from the position of "what kind of class system best compliments the already existing structure and progression of Vintage Story?" Because I think being unable to discern THAT in particular, is the reason why discussion of the Class system usually becomes so circular and unproductive. So, knowing it's difficult, please try to leave personal preference at the door as we analyze that! To start from my conception, I have come to the idea that the RPG elements of the Class system are, in certain ways, out of place with the rest of Vintage Story's feel. The core issue is usually said that Negative/Bonus drop rates have a tendency to hamper multiplayer progression (certain players are discouraged from even helping with other tasks because it would be sub optimal). Certain mods have tried to fix this by emphasizing the crafting element; giving certain classes special, more optimized, recipes on certain crafts, but this also has the negative effect of discouraging people from making those crafts until "X" player is online for max efficiency. Some groups do successfully ignore the pressure for optimization, but it is an inevitable part of player psychology that must be accounted for. The Main Point: I for one think the proper Vintage Story Class system is impossible to fully implement at the current moment, but would focus less on loot/drops and more on efficiency/speed in real world crafts. One class could specialize in the speed that they harvest crops, instead of the drop rate. Another might have unique in-world patterns for blacksmithing, pottery, knapping. Imagine a version of the game where the Hunter has access to a 3x3 pattern when stone knapping, they would be able to knap easier than anyone else but them having this also don't obsolete other characters who stone craft. The ClockMaker, likewise, could have access to unique smithing patterns only available on certain technical/copper crafts (or if hopper/chute making is ever taken out of the grid, they could have ways to expedite such crafting. In terms of time, not materials saved.) I have been trying, aimlessly, to get this out as a proof of concept mod for months now, but it is simply beyond my skill set. So I'll throw the concept out into the public domain hoping it at-least sparks some discussion. (Hope everyone has a great day!) - - - Edit: To clarify the post a bit more, I think if you wanted to make a class system that feels like a natural part of Vintage Story in terms of theme, mechanics, and structure, it would have more focus on economic specialty/speed. Drop-rate bonuses/minuses would be removed, there would be no new grid based recipes that save materials (some mods add more efficient recipes to certain classes- e.x. Clockmaker can make windmill parts with less resin and fat,) and all economic bonuses would be speed and in-world based. Examples of what I mean would be faster harvest rates for certain materials, AND ADDITIONALLY, classes in such a system could have exclusive "F-menu" crafting patterns to make certain in-world crafts faster/easier, but which would still require the same amount of resources. In effect, only saving some small amount of time and effort.

You make a caricature of those politics and come off as bizarre and out of touch. That language might be understandable in whatever group you run in but people here don't talk like that. You will not win people over with that silliness. You have to remember we live in the material world. I have met many genuinely nice people of the "Capitalist class" and many assholes of the working class- Class isn't primarily a moral issue, it's just that the former are economically unnecessary, and their interests generally (but not always) contradict with, and are parasitic to the general interests of working class people. Talking solely from the moral lens at the mere mention of a person's class alienates you from actual industrial workers, who often don't see class as such an intense moral situation, just an economic reality we are resigned to. To talk in Marxist language to you; Class consciousness alone does not guarantee revolutionary principles. Just because you read "correct theory" in a book does not make your interpretation of that theory accurate (Dogmatism.) Avoid mechanical thinking and do not assume the masses are on the same page as you and will accept your lead/ideas (Think Dialectically, avoid Adventurism). Investigate things or you are bound to talk nonsense (Marx and co. had hundreds of people supplying them with accurate statistics of the day so they could properly form their theory, doing the 'intellectual practical work'. If you really want to understand the world accurately you have to do that same work. If you don't want to do that type of work to supplement your understanding of the theory you read then do not speak. Your yapping will do more damage than good.) Thank you, -A random industrial worker