CastIronFabric

however, then they proceeded to define what RPG is. They do not say 'to me' either. Despite the fact that AI basically said basically 'character progression' as well. which can mean even GTA Example: 'RPGs, as in games, do in fact require proper character progression systems, because that's a) the historical birth of them in the tabletop / pen & paper and early text based RPGs, and b) what video games ended up adopting & evolving into various sub genres such as hack'n slash / slay, which offer the same feature but less of a story / lore & consequently'

..and change is fine, its just helpful to know that one's audience might not have the same implicit understanding of what is being said. Additionally its not like the word 'RPG' is on par with Roosevelt saying 'Bully' in its transformation of understood meaning. We aint dead yet!

right so. GTA is a role playing game given said logic. I am trying to be neutral as to my own personal definition of what an RPG is or is not. However I am responding to your definition to provide as much clarity as possible to your definition. As a side note, per number 1 on my OP list, I do wish people would be very clear as to if they are stating THE definition of RPG or their own personal definition of an RPG. If they are providing THE definition I wish they would provide some sources that make THE definition clear other than themselves.

Your response is an example of what I am addressing. Despite what @Echo Weaver says there is NOT an agreement that the definition of RPG is subjective. You are basically asserting that AIs aggregation of the internet is incorrect in its definition of RPG and that your personal definition is correct. I am suggesting that unless you can provide me a source other than yourself as to the definition of RPG than I take the stance that its subjective. As such when people say 'RPG Elements' what they personally think that means might not be what their audience thinks it means which is my core point. I am not engaging in what the definition is or is not in this thread. I created a thread for that in 'Other Games' forum

1. My impression is that a lot of people like to say what an RPG is as if they are the definitive source of the definition. To be fair, this could simply be my in ability to read properly 'between the lines'. For example if a person says 'What an RPG is...' I do not assume they actually mean 'An RPG means to me is...' so that is a bit of a disclaimer on my part there. 2. I do not think there is a clear definition one could consider actionable on. In fact, even AI (which aggregates what we say) is very vague on the question. When I asked 'What are the parameters of an RPG' I basically got 'character progression' which depending on what one means by 'character progression' could mean nearly every single game ever made. I also asked 'Does RPG need to have a story' Answer: no. 'Does RPG need to have a skill system: Answer: no. 'Does an RPG have to have Lore'? Answer: no. The computer gaming industry (I am thinking so called AAA) even since around 1980 has latched on to the idea that an RPG is mostly about 'the story'. RPG actually came from table top war games. The basic idea was 'what if you played as person instead of an entire regiment?' That gave birth to the game Chainmail and then later D&D. In fact I started playing D&D during that transition. So it might have become 'story focused' somewhat by force over time but its not its birth. The reason I give this example is that the modern context of what an RPG is might not be in alignment with those who played in the 80s and the definition might change even more so and in the end its just subjective now. So...When a developer says a game will have 'RPG elements' what does that mean? go...

oops. I missed it. I am going to create a topic there on RPG here in a bit. Thanks

I just got one thing to say on this topic. NeverWinter Nights 2 is the only RPG computer game that I felt understood table top RPGs. DM with players, DM can change make things happen at will and thus the 'story' is more of a conversation between the player and the DM instead of a strictly followed script. Personally I have always thought that the computer gaming industry obsession in thinking that the campaign books sold for Basic Dungeon and Dragons was somehow the cornerstone to the game experience was missing the point entirely. Historically RPG came from table top war gaming, not intrinsic narrative based story telling. The main sellers was not 'oh my god! the stories are amazing I cant wait for the next installment of this highly compelling story!'. Maybe that came later, but in the 80s? no, that was a side note. A 'helper' if you will If these forums had a 'off topic' section I would create a topic on this. As it is I think I am responsible for us getting off topic, I hope they do not mind. I do not mind, I just do not know if the forum moderators do. If so my apologies.

so where should I look for the definitive definition that the vast majority of people agree on? @Echo Weaver says everyone agrees with me that the definition is subjective, is that person correct?

I am not seeing that agreement, what I am seeing is people trying to define what the word means..full stop. Not what it means to them personally but the definitive definition that everyone should understand is the definition. but fair enough I will assume you are right when you say people are agreeing with me that its subjective.

So that is my point. It means different things to different people. People have told me that RPG is NOT about the story. People have also told me that it IS about the story. The question is, what does RPG mean to the person who is using the term. If I apply my definition to the phrase RPG the person might be thinking something completely different. I do not want to be rude but guys..what I am saying is not overly complicated. There is NOT a universally agree on definition of what an RPG attribute or is not. Everyone, please stop trying to define the phrase as if Websters has given you a contract to define the word for everyone, my point is the phrase is subjective.

it actually is important when one is building expectations on what a game will be or should be when its said to be an RPG. If someone says 'this is a good RPG game' and people respond by talking about the story, we do not know if that person considers a story to be an important attribute of a RPG. I am one of those people, I played D&D in the 80s and 'story' was never my interest. To me a Narrative told by a DM is not what an RPG is. Its about skill progression, tactics, numbers and the story that happens when the players interact with the world thus changing the pre-determined route. That is exactly why I felt most of the D&D computer game completely missed the point. So I guess my point is, guys..do not assume the game is going to be XYZ because they said its RPG because their personal view on what an RPG is might not be in line with yours. To be clear for those who read my posts on the other thread. I personally believe that these developers will make the other project 'heavy on story' but the reason is not exclusively because they used the term RPG. Other people do not agree with my prediction but regardless, that is a side note

yeah I was a student of Joseph Campbell by proxy. I read a few of his books and listened to his entire lecture series. What I am here to tell you is this: People are asserting what RPG is..as if they have the definition and its a conclusive definition that everyone should be agreeing to. They very well might have the definition hidden somewhere however there is NOT a consensus on what the word means, AI can not be clear on the question and to assume everyone is on the same page to the definition and what attributes are involved is not being realistic. So in short when the developers say 'its going to have RPG elements' well what is or is not RPG elements is in fact..subjective. even though it should not be...it is

like I said, AI can not even be coherent on what the attributes of an RPG is and is not. I asked AI 'is a skill system required for a game to be an RPG' answer: no 'is a story required for a game to be an RPG' answer: no 'is lore required to for a game to be an RPG' answer: no 'what is are the attributes of an RPG' answer: character progression. Now I know AI often gets things wrong but these inconclusive answers does seem inline with my historical experience as well. If we say 'character progression' then yes I agree that all one would have to do is slap on XSkill and then BAM its now magically a RPG However my core point is, some people tell me (not just here but over my lifetime) RPG requires lore, some say required story, some say does not require any of that. In this side conversation people seem to imply that an RPG should have a story, you say its skill progression. I am saying its clear to me nobody (even AI) really has a solid definition that they can realistically tell other people 'it is..xyz' anyway, rant over.

I hate to beat a dead horse that for some reason gets people excited but I gotta ask. What exactly do we mean by 'RPG'. It appears in this thread we assumed it means more about the story. I was told in another thread that I was incorrect in suggesting RPG would likely means heavy story In fact even AI struggles to be clear on what attributes make up an 'RPG'.

That is a trailer for a different project that has been going on for a month or so by one developer on the team.

I think everyone understands what the game is and what you have illustrated here is NOT the concern people have. The concern people have is that despite the Devs insistence that their time and attention will be NOT diverted away from VS standard, at least to some degree that would literally be impossible unless VS management is willing to allow this other team to be 100% autonomous. That means ZERO feature reviews, zero design meetings, absolutely zero. Otherwise the VS team will HAVE to have some meetings from time to time and that does take away from the VS efforts. I am on the fence as to if that is a real concern or not, but that is the actual concern.

Let me explain myself better on some but not all points. When I say 'there is a mod for that' I am reflecting on two things specific things to the mod in question and the subject of this new game 'mode' 1. The mod in question is widely used and for many gamers are considered a requirement for game play in the EXISTING game modes. 2. Given number 1 above, what makes this idea a specific feature for the new game mode but would not be a natural fit for the existing game modes? (also as a note, all existing game 'modes' are actually just setting changes. This new game 'mode' is much more than that, lets keep that in mind. ---------------- Regarding the 'chisel the wall during combat' (If I understood that correctly) would have this side effect: A player would come along to do some mining, only to find inventory space filled with various unique chiseled blocks because each chisel would be unique block at that point. ----------------- Finally, I think everyone would be better served focusing on ideas that would only make sense in the new game mode and would NOT be a natural fit for the existing modes.

1. that would cause the block to then be a chiseled block and no longer a standard block. I think that could cause performance problems over time and also while mining, oh look you now have a random chisel block you have to put in your inventory. 2. I am not exactly sure if that is the 'autochisling' you are describing or if that is something else but I will say when it comes to copying work, there is a mod for that. My impression is that some of these ideas would actually work well in the existing VS game. I am not sure why these features would need an entire game mode to justify having them. If I can make a suggestion, perhaps everyone should focus on aspects of this new version of the game that would NOT work well with the existing version of the game thus justifying an entirely separate project.

well to be fair.. feature (singular). regardless, it would be an interesting move for a lot of people I am sure

Oh I am not disagreeing with you on the technical at all. To be clear when you say 'dungeon blueprint' I assume you are talking about something that the game generates not something the player created. and yes, I think that would be technically possible but I personally would not be interested in that but I would be interested in plopping down a players build just like Space Engineers does which is what I was saying. I personally am just not to much into dungeon crawling.

so share 'chunks' basically. I actually think that is technically possible. Understand that the player would not be able to leave that 'chunk'. Also, just for those who are unaware, the maps have seeds. So a player could play the same world as long as its untouched. Personally what I think is a better idea is simple building blueprints that player made buildings can be shared. Exactly like Space Engineers does.

'Player created maps' assuming that means the world itself and not just an image of literally the map of explored areas in another persons world would be the save file and that would be on average 10gb in size. Additionally one would not really need a high end 'mod' for that specifically. Just a simple way to share files.

right, so like I said in the old days that is what we would refer to as RolePlaying Server. In Neverwiner Nights we would tag a server as 'RP server' and everyone knew that people there will be in voice chat in character. anyway thanks for the info

I had to look up some of these terms to understand what is being asked here. Am I correct overall in saying its what us old people used to call 'A role playing server' So Neverwinter Nights 2 for example. Some people would have servers where you slash and go, other people would have servers in which most of the time you speak in game its in the context of the world and your character. As far as RTS is concerned Darkfall Online was a mixture of RTS with RPG and it was brilliant while it lasted.

just as a side note because I am not engaging anymore in this conversation. I asked AI 'what does RPG elements mean' and the answer is actually kinda funny, here it is: 'These elements often involve character progression, customization, and strategic decision-making, but can be incorporated into other genres like action, adventure, or even puzzle games' which in other words means, pretty much elements found in almost every single game ever where the player is a 'character' and is SUPER vauge. Even Call of Duty fits those parameters Anyway, I am out again..later