Kaelty

33 minutes ago, Victor Scrooge said:

... 

Just to inform you, the thread we're currently posting it is called 'suggestions'. I am aware of mods and I also have no issues with using mods. Still, this is a suggestion for implementation in the thread for implementation suggestions. 

I really hoped that my post on agreeing would close our discussion an would leave things on a positive note. Especially since you expressed to find it sad to even have this discussion. 

well I'm very sorry that i put my own oppinion in your thread, i even posted a link to some people who could help with the mod so i thought i was still beeing nice.

Yes this is a suggestion thread, but that doesn't mean that only people who agree with said suggestion can post in it. The developers would need to start a poll for every suggestion if they are interested what the rest of the community thinks about the suggestion otherwise.

You haven't agreed with me since my very first post btw, and i have only ever answered you since then whenever you quoted me. The rest of the comments in here were directed at Heiress.

24 minutes ago, Sparkle Kitti said:

I saw somewhere someone say that mobs cant spawn on slabs either upper or lower. Something like that. I can't figure out how to make a slab place in any way but the lower half of a block. How do you place it on the upper half?

While i do think thats a minecraft thing, maybe it works in VS too.

Put a block an top of where you want the slab to be and put it on the bottom side (while you look up at it, so just the reverse from when you put it down on a block) you could also trying to switch from automatic to horizontal build mode (throw the slabs into the crafting-grid, single stack) and aim at the top half of the block next to where you wanna place em.

10 minutes ago, Edrein said:

Howdy, these are just a few suggestions based on current play on the AbjectPovertyCraft server. Despite the server running mods these suggestions are for the base game.

Food Related:

1. Add seeds and saplings to the Food traders. This would help alleviate issues with finding various types of plants in general. But could certainly be a boon for multiplayer environments

2. Make saguaro cacti and mushrooms plantable.

3. Give eggs new crock uses: 

Honey Cake - Flour, Water, Egg, and Honey

Fried Rice - Rice and Egg. Anything in the last two slots

4. Allow eggs to replace 1 set of meat in meat stews and allow eggs in porridge. Also enable the creation of boiled eggs.

5. Pemmican as a long lasting ‘storage’/travel food. Made of meat, fat, and berries similar to real life. It would be nice if you could also grind pemmican into powder and add it to soup or stews too similar to how it was used in the past.

6. You cannot create vegetable stew with mushrooms as the base ingredients. 

7. Allow fly agaric mushrooms to be turned into a weapon poison/coat similar to the sealed crock system. Each use of the mushroom gives ‘X’ amount of hits with the extra damage modifier.

 

World Events/Generation:

1. Add an active meteor shower type event to the world. Make sure it doesn’t aim for player placed blocks assuming the game tracks world gen vs player placed (outside of reinforced blocks) that way any potential ‘griefing’ is limited. The meteor shower would be useful for adding resources to a map. Have these be various ores not just meteoric iron. This would provide maps a good way to ‘regenerate’ after existing for long amounts of time, particularly in multiplayer.

2. Add a few more unique events with various mobs. Full moon? Werewolf time. These events could require different methods to either beat them for unique rewards or you can choose to avoid them. For instance with a werewolf, you’d want silver weapons and armor to make the fight a lot easier, but not impossible for other metals to prevent players from feeling like they are stuck.

 

Items:

1. Obsidian Arrowheads.

2. Give padlocks additional value by adding 10% of their value (compared to an ingot) to reinforcing the chest they are on. So an iron padlock would add 80 reinforcement. As well as being able to remove a lock from a chest/door without having to break through the reinforcement.

3. The ability to create an animal lead out of flax. 

4. New bomb types. The Ore Blasting Bomb is great for mining silver/gold out of quartz and feels a bit less useful for other ore types. (In the sense that it doesn’t often clear out stone.) We could use a stone blasting bomb and perhaps one for ‘dirt’ type blocks for clearing out areas. Obviously an expensive to make PvP type bomb for getting through reinforcements would also be a good addition here.

5. A metal scrap system for the excess voxels wasted in crafting recipes or double the output of certain recipes where there would be enough metal to create two tools. IE: Shears, knives, and padlocks.

Food:

1. I agree

2. I don't know about cacti but cultivating mushrooms is actually really hard you know? Not Immersive i disagree

3. new cooking uses* I agree and would like to add scrambled egg and omelette to the list.

4. Eggs are no alternative to meat in dishes. You can get proteins from them but you can't make a steak out of eggs. Blasphemie! I disagree

5. I agree...and i kinda wanna try that after googling it

6. not sure what you mean? it's not possible now and you want it to be or other way around? Anyway, mushrooms are not a vegetable so they should not be the "main" ingredient.

7. I kinda would rather see it as a type of poison that can be crafted into weapon oil... but thats for later when the combat system gets a rework done.

World Events/Generation:

1. I disagree completly. Realism is one of the main charm points of Vintage Story. Meteor showers that actually survive entry into the atmosphere are very rare and those that do are either so small that there would be almost no benefit or they are large enough for that but would completly destroy anything in a several hundred blocks radius. The meteorites that you find on the map have been there for a long time allready, else they would lie in big craters.

2. No opinion on that one, i don't like combat as it is now anyway so i wouldn't try those monsters anyway.

Items:

1. hmmm not sure about that one... i do think there is a reason why there are non though. just a thought on the back of my head.

2. no opinion on that one, playing singleplayer and if multiplayer then as a group with no need for locks

3. you can craft rope which has no use yet, would think that would be a better idea. also not useable on wild animals. there is no way a wild animal will let you put a lead on it.

4. There is a Mod for that i think. Bombs and animal traps mod

5. I agree though i think that getting scrapmetal from breaking tools should be a thing as well (who uses tools until they are gone?)

2 minutes ago, Victor Scrooge said:

Well, we agree on this. We both want people to be able to make choices of their own. If it's an option in the game you can still choose if you want to play this way or not. If it's a mod you can choose wethrt you want to play this way or not. The only difference is how simple it is to choose. Do I just play or do I install a mod before I can choose. The convenience of being able to choose intuitively during the game doesn't affect the ability to choose a different style of playing. 

Just to inform you, even the survival mode that you use is a Mod, thats how this game is programmed. Adding a vegan Option in the settings is really easy. It's just that Tyron and Saraty are making this game mostly by themselves. The amount of features that Tyron wants to add to the game is far bigger than the ones allready in it and bugfixes allready take quite a lot of time. My point is that if people want those alternatives then they just could make a mod for it. There is no need to add even more work on tyrons shoulders. If people really want it in their game simply looking for the right mod is no problem at all, no need to spoonfeed it to everybody. As you said both ways are easy for the other players. But one way needs for a modder to work and the other one needs tyron to work. If the Mod reaches an degree of perfection where tyron says he wants to implement it then thats that. But if he has to do it himself then other features will have to wait. I prefer to get the stuff that does not exist yet over an alternative to stuff that does exist allready.

I'm sorry if i put tyron on the spot with this, i wanted to keep him out of this discussion but since every other argument was either ignored or brushed away...

4 minutes ago, Heiress said:

I can see merit to having alternatives even implemented in the base game. Most abstractions that could potentially come around against realism are already circumvented or can be circumvented, effectively to go fully vegan in the game currently you'd have to stop killing animals and give up eggs, Wool and dairy aren't even in the game yet, and would probably not be crucial either.

Essentially this suggestion currently could be boiled down to an alternative to backpacks (making them a sidegrade ideally?) and allowing gambeson to be used as a base for armor, or some other flax based armor that can be used as a base for chainmail.

Truth be told, this wouldn't be so hard to mod, but I would not be against seeing this in the base game.

I would be fine with that approach too, my point was that there should be no item in the game thats essentially leather with another name and skin. (thats how it works in the Minecraft Mod)

I would also be OK with paper armor, I just think that it would need to be realistic and crafting one would take enormous amounts of time. As for the wooden Armor, I allready said that i think leather shouldn't be necessary for that. I would use the allready implemented Rope that has no use as for now.

I think some molds are stackable allready, the tool-molds are probably not stackable because you are supposed to convert most of it into ingots and per smelting process only make around 2 pickaxes and maybe 0-1 from the other tools (I would never make axes or shovels from metal unless i drown in it actually) and most advanced tools can be made via smithing. you would need a lot of copper plates for armor and lanterns for example. but  i agree that they should be stackable, same goes for tool parts themselves.

It's kinda sad that this thread has transformed from a simply discussion about making a Mod for a game, into me trying to explain a single statement. As I said I myself am living while trying to avoid Animal Products, I have nothing against veganism. I just want to leave people the choice to decide themselves if they want an altered game or not.

5 minutes ago, Heiress said:

The point I was making was more related to veganism being a "rather new" idea, whereas in history the idea of not harming animals where possible has been one for many years. I won't deny that veganism as it is today with even minimizing or eliminating the use of animal products like wool and milk is a relatively new one, but vegetarian ways of life have been a thing for years.

I think you missunderstood me, i seperate veganism and vegtarism. I was talking about complete veganism. vegetarism was indeed around for a long time allready.

Also i don't think the idea itself is bad, it could make the replay value go up i don't doubt that. But thats something you put in a Mod. I have no intention to stand in the way of such a Mod existing and Vintage Story was programmed with Mods in mind. I even linked a forums thread that would help with making the mod. All I'm saying is that reworking the game to make it vegan friendly at the cost of realism is the wrong approach. Victor Scrooge himself stated in his opening post  that he got the idea from a Mod for Minecraft. Nobody would claim that the Mod would need to be in Vanilla Minecraft, everybody is OK with it beeing a Mod. I just think that the same should be the case for Vintage Story.

On 3/10/2020 at 8:39 PM, Victor Scrooge said:

The problem with Reality and Game is that this isn't really a good point discussion vise. A game is a simulation of reality. Gaming as a narrative medium has grown so much in the last 30 years, that this conception is just outdated. On top of that I have to disagree to you on every point you made in your quote. Rethinking and reworking storys from the past is extremely important. Every story we know has to be altered to a certain extent so we are able to understand it. I had to read a medieval novel at university and it's mind-boggling how many problems arise when it comes to understanding our own society a thousand years back in time. 

As for your claim about food. Meat as a primary food source is a relatively new form as a way of life. 

In the realm of armor, you have no idea what a bunch of sticks or paper can do. Leather is not the wondermaterial. If you handle it wrong it's briddle, your own skin is irritated etc. That is one of the reasons why fabric was so much more valuable.

 

Ok first of all your point of "A game is a simulation of reality. " is just underlining my point. VS is not an simulation of living in a modern world but one where humans are almost extinct and technological levels are at least at the start on stoneage level. If you chose to keep your own viewpoint that is fine but i doubt the "people" who live inside that world would have the same views.

I agree that rethinking and reworking storys of the past is important, what i was talking about is altering storys less then 50 years old because it could butthurt some people. We are living in a world where some people put wrong translations or synchronisations into their work because it fits their own worldview better. It'S not that those works can't be understood until you change them, it'S that those people change them so they will be understood differently. Thats simply spitting in the authors face at that point.

As for the point about food, I NEVER said something about meat as the primary food source. I simply stated that living completly vegan without knowledge about the right diet is difficult, people tend to interpret things as they like i know but lets keep this civil.

as for armor i actually do know quite a bit, wooden armor does have it's uses and it's implemented in the game. I agree on the part that it needing leather is... not necessary. I also know about paper armor. Mythbusters once did try making one and here is the result. Mythbuster Paperarmor    while it does indeed kinda work, making one requires a lot of paper and a lot of time, the right technik is important too. I guess 1 person alone without the equipment would spend around 6 months for 1 suit of armor (from gathering the required materials over making the amount of paper needed as well as the necessary equipment to make paper and folding the paper and assembling it) IF they know how to do it.

10 minutes ago, Heiress said:

Jainism has been around for as early as 900 BCE (well before the iron age in many places.), one of the core tenets of Jainism is nonviolence, animals included.

I don't think there's really much historical concerns here.

The oldest found tools from the stone-age are around 2.6million (not made from homo sapiens) and it ended 2200 BCE so 1300 years before jainism. I also doubt that every single person in India was a follower of Jainism or that they refused to use animal products even if they themselves didn't kill any. There is such a thing as Trade, and you can't really rely on that in VS. Using leather that a non-jain produced does not conflict with the Mahavratas that the Jain follow. I will not deny that there are jain that do live without it but there surely are some that do.

In Vintage story you advance through multiple ages in human history. The Concept of veganism is a rather new one as even in these times living completly vegan requires extensiv knowledge on where animal products were used and how to keep a balanced diet without using any meat/fish or other products from animals. Granted it's getting easier now with the vegan food boom (5 years ago getting vegan alternatives was still hard) But we are in modern times now so i do think trying to implement a lifestyle like this into a scenario like it is in Vintage Story where you practically start at stoneage techlevel is kinda besides the point, even more so since killing is part of the game. That jute doesn't even come close to beeing as resilient as leather is just another point against complete implementation, although i wouldn't mind gradually adding more fabrics to the game they shouldn't be treated as an complete alternative to leather.

If you do want an alternative then i do think modding is the only right answer, or you could turn all mobs passiv which would eliminate the need for armor. In case you do want to make the mod I would like to direct you to this forum post here Community-ressource-libary as I do think that at least jute might be part of multiple mods and this way compatibility would be ensured.

Just to make sure i'm not missunderstood. I do not denounce veganism, I myself use quite a lot of vegan products and i try to get my animal products from sources where the animals are treated well. I just think that Reality and a Game are 2 completly different things and should be treated as such. Just like i think that forcing cultural and racial diversity in a Movie or a Series or inserting females into male roles is wrong and essentialy censorship, especially if the source material clearly states otherwise.

Yeah vintage story doesn't seem to like beeing paused for too long, screen tends to freeze shortly after breaks that are a bit longer than just 1-2 mins. haven't tried pausing for multiple hours though.

45 minutes ago, Mettman said:

If I remember correctly, in the mouse over for this option, it says that cold biomes are more to the north and warmer biomes more to the south. I can't verify it at the moment though.

You are correct, seems i didn't remember that bit  but at least from my experience there is hardly any difference between south and north biome wise, then again it would be hard to notic without running over 10k blocks in a [1mil]x[1mil] big world i guess. At least for now moving greater distances in VS takes quite a lot of time and just building streets of stone path doesn't help all that much and it takes quite a long time.

I do think it would matter more in smaller maps but at least in bigger ones there is not much of a difference unless you plan on moving your base towards the north/south every few days.

1 hour ago, Mettman said:

Upon world creation there is an option for realistic and patchy climate zones.

that only controls if biomes switch from one block to the next or if there is some sort of slow transition. should have no inpact on where to biomes are generated.

4 hours ago, Edgars De Bruins said:

Edit: You're right, it does affect that. Changing the view distance from 45 to 128 changed the revealed map area to a bigger size and changed the shape to a circle. I'm feeling quite stupid for not thinkig of that, but happy nonetheless for the fact that you mentioned it. Thank you! 

You're welcome

4 hours ago, Sparkle Kitti said:

I also forgot to mention being able to add non food organic items as well such as flowers, hand baskets and sticks/wood if you get to where you just have way too much.

As someone who lives in the country i can tell you that composting sticks and wood next to impossible. Even sticks would take years to naturally turn into compost, let alone wood.

Hey @Tyron

I think it's time for a statement on this topic

people are waiting for a bit over 3 weeks now

Hey @Katerlad,

If you want wiki access then this thread might interest you

Wiki Discussion

Inside should be all the info you need so you can get ready until tyron sees this thread.

5 hours ago, PAD said:

If we're going to use four ingots of metal to make a lantern, I want to at least be able to put it on a stick to use as a mace.

time to implement burn damg and a damg over time effekt then again i would prefer having my whole base lit up instead of my enemys.

Hello Robs.

I think the climate settings only make hotter/colder and arid/wet biomes more likely in the generation. While you might have a harder time finding them you they can still be generated.

I myself have a hotter&wetter climate but just south of the marshes i started in there is a huge desert and in the northeast there are snowy mountains.

I also don't think north and south have anything to do with climate in this game but you would have to check the gamefiles to confirm that.

Rather than climate zones like on earth, you should view it more as patches of biomes like in minecraft. At least thats the feeling i get after playing my world for over 25h

hmmm, some have a hidden room underneath it but ya need to search every ruin as there is no real "rule" for it. except maybe that there is no such room in the wall and bridge ruins, the aqueduct has nothing underneath it either. and the small ruins that are only made out of 1 or 2 pillars are empty as well. ruins who can have an room are mostly at least 6x6 blocks big. with time comes experience.

Some hidden rooms have only the usual breakable urns sure (which can be nice as well since you can get rather good stuff from it) but some have urns in good condition that can be used as storage space (the ones you can make from clay) and some even have some small treasure chests. Then there is the "Special" category which tends to have some extra loot. i have found the ruins of a rather big house where there was a small basement with an torch holder and an old bed (the one you can sleep in for 7,5h) and i also found an old tomb where a meteorite had hit it. not only was there the meteorite made out of basalt with iron ore inside it, the tomb itself was full with chests, polished stones, spiderwebs and bones. Underground ruins tend to have better loot than the ones above ground though i haven't found any special ones like the tomb or such. Treasure chests tend to contain rare stuff like clothes, special containers, tools and weapons, old gears(money) and more.

Sometimes you have to remove a bit of the walls to find hidden stuff but you can do that per hand, both cobblestone and the much rarer stonebricks can be dug up by hand (although a pickaxe is faster) it's how i build my home base.

Allright, there are 2 abnormalitys here.

1. is that your map seems to reveal in a square, mine does about a circle

2. is that you actually have to move the map so that the revealed spaces are starting to go back to brown, at least i think thats unusual since i normaly do not run with the map open (holes in the ground you know?)

As for the map not staying visible, that one is intended. There is, at least for now, no way to keep the map revealed. as you can see on the waypoints i allready explored quite a bit but only a radius around me is revealed, while it takes time getting used to, it's in no way making you lose orientation as long as you use the waypoint function and mark some landmarks. If you look at my map i have quite a few black stars right? Those are mountains, big caves or interesting rock formations. I also mark bigger bodies of water or biomes that reach a certain sizes and are clearly different from their surroundings.

Edit: Just an afterthought, i don't know how far away chunks load from your position (should be viewable in the settings) but with an low enough number it might start beeing a square instead of a circle.

Just thought of some other ways to make food last longer

for one there is fermentation, and one of it's products vinegar. vinegar can be used to make longer lasting food or directly in cooking as a seasoning.

Another method would be air drying or heat drying. This would work well with most fruits and some vegetables. You could also make some sort of instant soup mix with ground up dried vegetables. I guess if saturation is ever split into hunger and thirst, soups gonna be quite a good source.

1 hour ago, Sparkle Kitti said:

I think torches burn out faster and likely food spoils faster during a storm

hmmm i think tyron once mentioned in a twitch stream (via the chat, he was watching most of the evening. The streamer was Gronkh, the most well known german let's player) that temporal areas (and i think the storms as well) have no effect on how fast processes finish right now.

He also mentioned that he liked the idea of, for example, fields growing faster in a temporal unstable region as "time flows faster inside" which would lead me to the conclusion that it will probably added at some point.

As for the stream, i'm gonna drop a little link Vintage Story Stream with Gronkh (german) it's also the stream that made me (and probably a lot of other german speaking people) buy the game. Might have been the best puplicity the game got until now, at least in german speaking countrys.

I agree with Kitti, you probably need to boil it in a pot as there is mention of a boiled egg in the wiki

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=Cooking