The game is fantastic! , but

[Sullivan]

Hi!

Before diving into the text below, I want to say up front that I love the game. It's probably the best game in the genre, one that I always want to keep playing, especially considering that my creative abilities are catastrophically low. I’m terrible at building anything that looks good. But the crafting, mechanics, and atmosphere – all of it keeps me generating world after world, exploring, and enjoying the experience.

Now, let's get to the point. During my playthroughs in Vintage Story, I increasingly encounter a kind of "progress gap," after which I lose interest in the world and in progressing further. This "progress gap" happens during the Bronze Age. Essentially, it includes everything you need to live comfortably and explore the world. The Iron and Steel Ages don’t really add any new mechanics, other than making production more complex. And while that’s great, there's no content that actually requires, for instance, wearing an iron chainmail. There’s no clear enemy (besides the ONE) that would make forging an iron/steel sword or developing your settlement necessary to match the world's challenges.

After bronze, all that's left is farming boars for meat, tending to the farm, and milking goats. Repeat.

At this point, exploration becomes unnecessary (there’s no reason to explore; everything is found, the storage is full of ores, enemies are defeated). This is where creativity and sandbox thinking come into play. But I think I’m not alone in lacking that creativity. The game needs some kind of challenge beyond this point. It needs activities that engage players, aside from farming and beekeeping. There needs to be a reason to keep spending ores and developing the settlement further.

Below are some suggestions that might resonate with players who aren’t into building and creativity but are more interested in survival.

1. I’d like to see more enemies. Objectively, drifters and locusts can already be killed with your eyes closed and have become quite weak. I’ve read that new mobs are coming in version 1.20, but it seems like they still won’t be enough to rekindle the excitement of cave exploration.
2. Cave content. Gears and junk inside, along with translocators, are fun. But only the first five times. After that, it’s unclear why you’d even bother restoring translocators since there’s no need to explore further. Once you’re in the Bronze Age, exploration mostly ends until you need to find new deposits of bismuth, sphalerite, or tin.
3. The mechanics of bloomery smelting and steelmaking are fantastic. I’m completely thrilled. But it’s unclear why steel and iron are necessary. Right now, they just seem stronger than bronze. I wouldn’t build a multi-level furnace to cast steel just for a shovel that has more durability and digs faster (this example applies to everything else too).

To sum up my feedback, I want to say that the game has an incredible mid-game. I’m happy to spend hours running through swamps, hunting boars and gazelles. I want to spend even more time in the dungeons. But there needs to be a reason to keep doing that

 

Would be cool to get some discussion here with other forum lads. Take care!

Edited October 24, 2024 by Sullivan

[Krougal]

I agree with most of your points. I don't know what you really expect out of iron & steel that they don't provide. I consider them worthwhile. Especially for the armor protection tier if nothing else. I don't bother even making chain until I've got steel. Until then it's leather or tailored gambeson (although it seems I've got steel before I've got linen to burn on anything other than windmills, especially now with the sailboat also vieing for cloth) . Mining/digging/chopping are boring tasks so the faster I can get through them the better.

Sure, you don't need to gather much of anything once you have steel, unless you are one of those creative players who will come up with big ambitious construction projects and then you need to gather lots more resources. You and I are not those players.

 

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @Sullivan!

I'm much the same, The early to mid game is the most enjoyable. But I draw the line at iron. Bloomeries are simple enough, and a single deposit of iron ore is enough that you never again need look for bismuth or tin. Iron tools offer enough advantage that they are worth it, iron weapons and armor, not so much. Though it might be in 1.20. I make a few batches of steel, mostly for the bragging rights of having steel plate armor on an armor rack, never to be worn. But, yeah, might as well start a new world then.

The new monsters are a huge improvement. One of them you can no longer just ignore the missiles. His surface version's missile damage is about the same as a flint spear, I think, and he is not shy about using them. Another, I don't believe you can outrun on level ground, even unarmored, and they corner extremely well. Their weakness is they don't hit very hard. Also, they either can't get through a single-wide space, or do so with difficulty. They might be sword and board foes. And like drifters, they get much more nasty as you descend, definitely into the one-shot range. Might be there is a purpose for metal armor if you do spelunking around these bad boys.

[EDIT]

For comparison, in 1.19, I would usually not bother with improvised armor, and a single stack of horsetail-reed poultices would last until maybe August if I didn't screw up too many temporal storms. In 1.20, I've used almost 2 full stacks by May 6. To be fair, most of that damage is because I persist in doing stuff outside during Apocalyptic nights, which maybe I'll have to reconsider. Those reeds are better spent on skeps.

Edited October 24, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Maelstrom]

To add some context - About a year ago Tyron estimated the game is about 10% complete.  At this time late/end game does come fairly quickly and player created objectives become critical to continued playing in that world.  Alternately, you can follow @Thorfinn path and start a new world for that fresh new car smell again.  

[-Glue-]

Yeah, I also agree. I never even bothered getting to steel because Iron was more than enough. Plus, learning a whole new system, and grinding out all the resources for it just didn't feel worth while. I think each tier of tool, copper, bronze, iron, steel, etc. Should all have a distinct feature or reason to strive for, other than more efficiency. Copper is already a good goal, its your first real set of tools. But past that, its mostly just durability and speed.

I think once VS starts to fill out with more content, it will be easier to split that content between tiers of tools. For example, implementing the quarry mod, but locking plugs and sledgehammers behind Iron. Not sure what could be locked behind steel. That feels like its getting far more industrial, so maybe some ways to alleviate the grind of smithing? Or improved mechanical power? Either way, the more avenues of progression each tier offers, the better!

[Thorfinn]

15 hours ago, -Glue- said:

Not sure what could be locked behind steel.

Early steam might still be iron, but higher pressures are going to require steel. Maybe even steel alloys.

[Maelstrom]

15 hours ago, -Glue- said:

Not sure what could be locked behind steel. That feels like its getting far more industrial, so maybe some ways to alleviate the grind of smithing? Or improved mechanical power? Either way, the more avenues of progression each tier offers, the better!

I would KILL for a reliable power source that does not require a year and a half of farming flax.  It would be cool to have a boiler powering a steam piston connected to helve hammers for end game tech right now.  Seems like that might be a logical step for 1.21.  Then 1.22 implements steam powered boats before another round of de-janking in 1.23 and story elements in 1.24.  But now I'm just pipe-dreaming, coz that's 2 years worth of updates.

[Thorfinn]

I suspect water wheels will come first. Now Wilderness defaults to buckets not moving water source blocks, which is the first step one would have to take to keep water power from being abused.

[Maelstrom]

Seems like water wheels are quite a bit off.  River generation and water flowing mechanics need to be implemented.  At least I recall seeing Tyron make that connection somewhere (but I could be wrong just as well).  I see water wheels as an alternative to wind mills or possible a progression towards steam power.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Maelstrom

[Thorfinn]

Maybe. On the other hand, upland ponds and lakes are water sources, as are all those beautiful waterfalls you see all over the place. With the right setup or some light terraforming, you could create a waterwheel to take advantage of that elevation drop, and not worry about flooding the lowlands, because any flowing water will stop after 4 horizontal blocks.

Edited October 25, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

Well, while I don't use the River mod, since I feel it needs a lot of tweaking, it is a POC for flowing rivers and water power.

 

I have a problem with not being able to make water sources from buckets and I'm glad it is an optional setting. We have no means of irrigation.

If we could build aqueducts then it would be fine, but as it is now it is too limiting. You've got use a watering can, build over a pond or do rain dance.

[Echo Weaver]

22 minutes ago, Krougal said:

I have a problem with not being able to make water sources from buckets and I'm glad it is an optional setting. We have no means of irrigation.

If we could build aqueducts then it would be fine, but as it :s now it is too limiting. You've got use a watering can, build over a pond or do rain dance.

The wiki entry on buckets says:

"Also infinite water can be created by collecting water in the wooden bucket and placing the water from that bucket using control and right-click in a hole in the ground."

Is this still true?

(I did build my farm out over a lake because I didn't have the tech level to build a bucket, but I was ASSUMING I could move it to a better location for the next growing season.)

Edited October 25, 2024 by Echoweaver

[Krougal]

12 minutes ago, Echoweaver said:

The wiki entry on buckets says:

"Also infinite water can be created by collecting water in the wooden bucket and placing the water from that bucket using control and right-click in a hole in the ground."

Is this still true?

Yes. It's a new thing  in 1.20PR we were talking about. It is optional. Exploration mode default is off. Survival default is on, but then survival settings are for masochists.

I do love abusing the hell out of it too, I don't carry ladders, I just flood the shaft from the top and swim up and down. I also flood the mines to prevent spawns.

 

Edited October 25, 2024 by Krougal

[Echo Weaver]

Just now, Krougal said:

Yes. It's a new thing  in 1.20PR we were talking about. It is optional. Exploration mode default is off. Survival default is on, but then survival settings are for masochists.

Oh. Hmm. Yes, in the absence of an irrigation system, I'll be sure to turn that off too.

[Thorfinn]

The default on Standard is that buckets move source blocks. It's only if you play Wilderness Survival that the default is they don't move source. My guess is it's to let the more hardcore players figure out the ways to make it work, while the more casual players stick with the tried and true until the Wiki is updated on how to do it.

I've  been too busy playing around with the new stuff to even try building fields instead of building into lakes. Maybe if Tyron et al. would slow down release of new stuff I could get around to it.  (Look at that. Someone "complaining" about the release schedule being too fast.)

Edited October 25, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Arasine]

On 10/24/2024 at 8:48 PM, Maelstrom said:

To add some context - About a year ago Tyron estimated the game is about 10% complete.  At this time late/end game does come fairly quickly and player created objectives become critical to continued playing in that world.  Alternately, you can follow @Thorfinn path and start a new world for that fresh new car smell again.  

This is 10% complete ? Wow, that makes me happy ! Is there some road map somewhere to read about future content ?

[Krougal]

Just now, Arasine said:

This is 10% complete ? Wow, that makes me happy ! Is there some road map somewhere to read about future content ?

Yeah, really. Great things to come.

[Thorfinn]

@Arasine, banner at top of the page, Devlog --> Roadmap.

[Kosti]

I believe your issue actually doesn't arise mostly from what you said - how big is your base? Do you have a good looking house? A cellar? Different buildings for different purposes? And don't get me started on the infinite fun that is chiseling! VS isn't only about survival, while this aspect is most prominent during the early game, once you get to the bronze age you truly are able to live peacefully for the most part, and I personally found that issue myself, but then I realized I still had thousands of blocks to explore! Why not set up multiple outposts? Why not make roads between them? Then why not also make docks, why not connect them through cannals? Be creative, survival getting easier doesn't mean the game stops being fun, if anything it opens more possibilities to do stuff you couldn't before. Why make iron? I asked myself that until I tried making a road, durability? Yeah bronze won't do you good. Try terraforming land for your base, try make a castle, you will find why iron is needed. If humans irl lived just to survive, why ever move past the bronze age once we figured out farming? Same is with this game, I agree currently we are lacking dungeons and interesting monsters and such, but the game isn't just about survival and exploration, it's also about creation, so create mate! Hope this helps

[Echo Weaver]

What we lack in dungeons, we gain in lore to explore. I haven't even found the resonance archives from chapter one. 

[Sullivan]

18 hours ago, Kosti said:

I believe your issue actually doesn't arise mostly from what you said - how big is your base? Do you have a good looking house? A cellar? Different buildings for different purposes? And don't get me started on the infinite fun that is chiseling! VS isn't only about survival, while this aspect is most prominent during the early game, once you get to the bronze age you truly are able to live peacefully for the most part, and I personally found that issue myself, but then I realized I still had thousands of blocks to explore! Why not set up multiple outposts? Why not make roads between them? Then why not also make docks, why not connect them through cannals? Be creative, survival getting easier doesn't mean the game stops being fun, if anything it opens more possibilities to do stuff you couldn't before. Why make iron? I asked myself that until I tried making a road, durability? Yeah bronze won't do you good. Try terraforming land for your base, try make a castle, you will find why iron is needed. If humans irl lived just to survive, why ever move past the bronze age once we figured out farming? Same is with this game, I agree currently we are lacking dungeons and interesting monsters and such, but the game isn't just about survival and exploration, it's also about creation, so create mate! Hope this helps

Different playstyles and interests in game. As I said in original post, i lack of creativity. By that i mean that it is not fun for me. But could be a huge fun for lots of ppl around. 

This post is mostly about my expectations and people like me, who likes survival and exploration parts of this game

Ofcourse I could build the roads. And make castles. But it won't bring me joy from other aspects

[Kosti]

2 hours ago, Sullivan said:

Different playstyles and interests in game. As I said in original post, i lack of creativity. By that i mean that it is not fun for me. But could be a huge fun for lots of ppl around. 

This post is mostly about my expectations and people like me, who likes survival and exploration parts of this game

Ofcourse I could build the roads. And make castles. But it won't bring me joy from other aspects

Tbf there is a lack of dungeons and stuff, but you have to consider that this game isn't just about dungeons/survival and exploration, while they are lovely parts and the devs are working on more lore stuff, they are just that, a part of the game, not the entire game... for now all i can suggest is If you want more of a challange - tweak the settings or add mods and wait for 1.20

[Echo Weaver]

FWIW, I also "lack creativity" in that I'm not playing this game to build pretty things. I love survival games, and I'm here to survive. What makes me excited is being able to age cheese (don't judge) or domesticate animals such that I don't have to worry about basic needs, then making myself as armored and weaponed as possible to go chase down lore.

I think I agree that if you feel like you've done all the things that bring you satisfaction, look at mods. There are some fascinating ones that add or change major game mechanics. 

[Vratislav]

On 10/25/2024 at 6:57 PM, Thorfinn said:

buckets not moving water source blocks

The water sources management is both easy and difficult in current situation when source blocks do not create when surrounded by others. I built early game farm on a deep lake and then it was very difficult to remove it entirely. I had to replace all soil blocks with source blocks carefully that is not possible when there is no solid block aside. So, still some water blocks at the lake are moving water. On the other side, source block from a bucket is exactly 100 times OP.

It could be balanced more nicely if the source blocks were more difficult to create and at the same time they copied themselves when surrounded by two more others (like in TOBG, I know). Water source blocks then might be created for example by breaking a barrel full of water, making it 5times more difficult. It is not 1000 liters still (only 50), but bucketing one cubic meter of water seems too much  . 

Still rivers, flowing water mechanics and water wheels may require different source block behavior.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Vratislav

[Thorfinn]

6 hours ago, Vratislav said:

they copied themselves when surrounded by two more others

I think that's how it does work. Or did you mean 2 total source blocks touching the air block? So the lake could reclaim the corner of a field if you remove it? I'm not sure what the downside of 2 total would be. Must have been a downside, or I'd have thought that's how it would work.

Do you think player-placed source blocks are necessary, or even a good idea? Presumably you could still do it in creative, but in survival, you would have to adapt to what the world gives you.

Edited October 28, 2024 by Thorfinn