Repair of Tools

[Bertazz0]

I think there could be some way of repairing tools, it doesn`t make sense to me that when an axe/pickaxe/etc breaks it just disappears?
There could be more mechanics to improve on that, like maybe a grindstone, who would able to heal your tools to full durability very slowly, but the higher the current percentage of durability of the tool, the slower the grindstone would "heal" your tool, and vice versa.
Another solution would be when a tool runs out of durability, the handle breaks, returning you maybe some kind of damaged variant of that tool metal part, witch you could reuse in a new one, maybe this would even open doors to a system of tiers of handles(Not the focus of this suggestion), like a stick(level 1?) and a treated wood one(level 2?) for example.

[Khornet]

Tools are ultimately a form of a resource sink for balance reasons. They should break eventually. Getting a steady supply of steel late game is not really that much of a problem and something to always work towards for most of your initial gameplay.
I've never had a problem with tools once I started making steel ones and a single iron vein was enough to sustain that forever (and it made me a full set of steel plate armor). So while I do agree with the notion it's a bit silly the tool "just disappears", tools breaking often stops being a problem at the iron+ level.

I don't think a grindstone/whetstone "healing" your tool durability makes much sense - if anything, they should damage them at the cost of efficiency improvement.
IMO all sharp tools (axe, pickaxe, falx, knife, scythe) should start in a "blunt" state and need to be sharpened to varying degrees on that grindstone you mentioned, or a portable whetsone (with limited durability itself) to be usable/efficient. But like I mentioned that should actually reduce their durability by a very slight amount.

 

25 minutes ago, Bertazz0 said:

Another solution would be when a tool runs out of durability, the handle breaks, returning you maybe some kind of damaged variant of that tool metal part

I don't like this option for the simple reason of it introducing more inventory clutter to bloat your bag slots. If my pickaxe breaks and I have a backup one in my inventory - I still am wasting 2 slots in my inventory because I just picked up the broken pickaxe part. So I'm forced to choose if I want to carry home more ore, or that broken tool for recycling.

So here's my proposition. We don't add a magical tool duct tape/glue solution that fixes your tools. We also don't recycle the metal parts of the tool.
Like you mentioned, we ditch the brittle sticks and instead add proper tool handles carved out of wood with varying hardness (ebonwood being the best) + a new crafting recipe including the proper connective material to tie the tool handle and tool proper. For primitive stick-based tools that material could be reeds/rope, later flax fiber, finally nails and strips for bronze + tools. 
And in exchange for a much higher initial resource and effort investment into the tool, it gains a proportionally much higher durability that our current stick-based tools. That way it breaks way less often. 
 

[Medved7]

perhaps this will lead to the fact that having made 1 tool you will sharpen it for the rest of the game and there will be no need to look for resources for new tools

[Medved7]

5 minutes ago, Khornet said:

I don't like this option for the simple reason of it introducing more inventory clutter to bloat your bag slots. If my pickaxe breaks and I have a backup one in my inventory - I still am wasting 2 slots in my inventory because I just picked up the broken pickaxe part. So I'm forced to choose if I want to carry home more ore, or that broken tool for recycling

the slot occupied by a broken tool can hold enough ore to create a couple dozen tools

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @Bertazz0!

Have you tried https://mods.vintagestory.at/smithingplus? If so, how would you like to see it changed?

3 hours ago, Khornet said:

But like I mentioned that should actually reduce their durability by a very slight amount.

Agreed, though tool efficiency is problem in the game, because completion of the action to that block is timed to coincide with the final strike from the tool that caused the block to be harvested. This caused problems a while back when they rebalanced tool speeds. Turns out you kind of need very specific tool speeds to correlate with the animations.

[Khornet]

Just now, Thorfinn said:

This caused problems a while back when they rebalanced tool speeds.

Tools speeds are still the same. They just added new first and third-person animations. But you still "knock" on the block repeatedly, and the sound effect even reflects that.

Besides, like you already said, only the final hit or "knock" is the one that deducts durability. So why does that matter? The knocking speed of the weapon is irrelevant for durability efficiency if only the final knock counts.
What DOES matter is the fact different blocks, or half-blocks, or block-like entities, all consume the same amount of durability on their destruction. This is most jarring in the case of the shovel which should NOT be losing 1 durability per layer of charcoal scooped up, or the axe which should NOT be losing 1 durability per leaf block destroyed.

[Thorfinn]

But it does, because each intermediate "cracked" state also coincides with a tool strike. It wouldn't have to, no, but you know as well as I that if they did not, we would end up with the suggestion that they make it so about every other week.

I agree durability is weird. Shoveling snow, and using a knife to harvest a puffball are other jarring oddities. If it were up to me, leaves and ivy would be free, snow would be free, and mushrooms would be free or maybe harvestable like berries.

[LadyWYT]

10 hours ago, Khornet said:

Tools are ultimately a form of a resource sink for balance reasons. They should break eventually. Getting a steady supply of steel late game is not really that much of a problem and something to always work towards for most of your initial gameplay.

Agreed. On the one hand, it seems like it would be simple enough to add a few simple scrap pieces for broken metal tools/weapons, that could be chiseled into nuggets and melted back down into ingots for use in other projects. That's how mods generally tackle it, I believe. Having played with some of those mods though...while it was nice to have, it also meant there wasn't much incentive to go look for new ore deposits, as having more ore wasn't as valuable as it once was. So for balance, I think the item breaking and returning nothing is fine.

10 hours ago, Khornet said:

I don't think a grindstone/whetstone "healing" your tool durability makes much sense - if anything, they should damage them at the cost of efficiency improvement.
IMO all sharp tools (axe, pickaxe, falx, knife, scythe) should start in a "blunt" state and need to be sharpened to varying degrees on that grindstone you mentioned, or a portable whetsone (with limited durability itself) to be usable/efficient. But like I mentioned that should actually reduce their durability by a very slight amount.

Also agreed, though I would argue that you could probably drop the durability cost to sharpen a weapon/tool, and still be fine. A sharp weapon would do more damage, and a sharp tool will work faster than a blunt one. Not keeping your weapons sharp means that you'll need more hits to kill an enemy, which means more durability lost from the weapon(each hit costs one durability point). Not keeping tools sharp means they won't work as efficiently, so you'll have to spend a bit more time on the task to get it done.

6 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Agreed, though tool efficiency is problem in the game, because completion of the action to that block is timed to coincide with the final strike from the tool that caused the block to be harvested. This caused problems a while back when they rebalanced tool speeds. Turns out you kind of need very specific tool speeds to correlate with the animations.

To get around the tool speed and animation issue for this particular scenario, maybe set limits to which tools can be sharpened. IE, stone tools can't be sharpened at all, and metal tools when sharpened operate at the speed of the next tier only as long as they remain sharp(X number of durability points).

To be fair though...lack of efficiency/damage and durability are good incentives to upgrade your stuff to higher quality materials, like steel. A grindstone and sharpening system would be a nice little bonus gameplay loop.

10 hours ago, Khornet said:

Like you mentioned, we ditch the brittle sticks and instead add proper tool handles carved out of wood with varying hardness (ebonwood being the best) + a new crafting recipe including the proper connective material to tie the tool handle and tool proper. For primitive stick-based tools that material could be reeds/rope, later flax fiber, finally nails and strips for bronze + tools. 

You know, I've not been a fan of the "let's manually turn sticks into proper handles instead of slapping them into the crafting grid" idea, but if there were higher quality handles for higher-tier items(bronze+) then that might prove interesting instead of annoying.

[Khornet]

 

9 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I've not been a fan of the "let's manually turn sticks into proper handles instead of slapping them into the crafting grid" idea, but if there were higher quality handles for higher-tier items(bronze+) then that might prove interesting instead of annoying.

The ideal scenario is my head is: first we get a proper tree rework to have them match the fruit tree aesthetic. Trees would get a new "sapling" stage where they only drop a new "thin X wood log" item, and normal (big) trees would drop those too to some extent. A thin log is basically worth half of a normal, "full-block" log, so it would make 2 firewood when chopped.

Trees would also drop a new "branch" item is an "oak branch", "pine branch" etc. You can use an axe on a tree branch in the grid to make a single fiewood block, OR a knife, to turn it into a "sturdy stick". For the sake of early game inventory management a "sturdy stick" can be downgraded in the crafting grid to a standard stick we all know and love(?) - but not upgraded.
SOME sticks (like 10%) that lie on the ground, or drop from branchy leaf blocks, would also be "sturdy sticks". But only some.

NO MORE TOOL MAKING OUT OF BRITTLE, "STANDARD" STICKS! Tools can only be made by tying a "sturdy stick" and the tool blade, with some kind of material - reeds, rope, flax fibers. And that's only tier 1-2 tools. After you go into tier 3, you have to carve a proper HANDLE using an axe and chisel (or an axe and knife?) out of a "thin wood log". This is also where reeds and rope stop being usable in crafting. In tier 4, flax is dumped - you now have to use nails and strips for iron and steel tools. Of course, the nails and strips type would have to match the tool blade metal itself (this effectively increases the bar cost of the tool from 1 to 1.25, I'm aware). And you could also use them for tier 2-3 crafting (copper nails and strips for copper tools) for higher total durability, if you so desire.

That's the ideal and immersive scenario that I made up for a tool rework, that would also improve the issue of early tools breaking too often (like I mentioned; higher initial resource investment for higher overall durability). 

Edited December 3, 2024 by Khornet

[Krougal]

Maybe if it didn't cost a single ingot to make a tool I might be inclined to complain about not being able to repair them, but in the current state I couldn't be bothered.

Yes, it's unrealistic that tools break so fast, but I agree with the others; it's a needed resource sink.

[Facethief]

On 12/3/2024 at 5:37 AM, Khornet said:

That's the ideal and immersive scenario that I made up for a tool rework, that would also improve the issue of early tools breaking too often (like I mentioned; higher initial resource investment for higher overall durability). 

I hate to be blunt, but just bump the durability if you want higher durability. The quality of early tools, or lack thereof, is what makes metal such an upgrade, and (for me) drives progression.

[Khornet]

4 minutes ago, Facethief said:

I hate to be blunt, but just bump the durability if you want higher durability. The quality of early tools, or lack thereof, is what makes metal such an upgrade, and (for me) drives progression.

I also hate to be blunt, but you seem to have completely misunderstood me. I'm only proposing an alternative way to solve the problem in the OP, that's IMO more in line with the game's current balance.
Reaching steel-tier tools is also a big goal/point of progression to me (and probably everyone playing this game). 

I only suggested something that would make weapons more immersive. Why go to such lengths and tasks of producing hard-earned steel, if we're just going to attach it to the first crappy stick we find lying on the ground? And all the while not even formally using anything to attach it to the stick (despite the tool's image itself clearly having the metal part bolted/nailed to the wooden part). 

[Echo Weaver]

9 hours ago, Krougal said:

Maybe if it didn't cost a single ingot to make a tool I might be inclined to complain about not being able to repair them, but in the current state I couldn't be bothered.

Yes, it's unrealistic that tools break so fast, but I agree with the others; it's a needed resource sink.

The speed with which we obtain ore is also unrealistic. It seems decently scaled to me.

[Hyrum Behnke]

I had an idea for a tool rework. 

When you make a tool head it instantly is a tool with three new stats, hardness, sharpness, and mass.

Hardness is the most important stat, deciding the maximum sharpness of the tool, how likely it will lose sharpness, and how likely it will accrue nicks or brake entirely.

Sharpness decides how fast the tool is, how much damage it does, what damage level it has, and what block braking level it has. Tools can still mine blocks with a higher block level, but with significantly increased chances of nicks or brakes.

Mass is the overall material in the tool, lost when it gets nicks or when you use a sharping stone. Starts at 100.

Also if iron tools get left out in the rain and temporal storms they could rust, losing mass and sharpness.

 

Im thinking cutting trees should have a decently high block level, while branches and leaves will have a vary low block level.

[Khornet]

Massive spoiler alert, but 1.20 does add a... peculiar way of actually fixing our tools:

Spoiler

I don't think the option to do it ourselves in some future update is off the table.
Agnieszka is my waifu btw

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Khornet

[Hyrum Behnke]

1 hour ago, Khornet said:

Massive spoiler alert, but 1.20 does add a... peculiar way of actually fixing our tools:

  Reveal hidden contents

I don't think the option to do it ourselves in some future update is off the table.
Agnieszka is my waifu btw

 

They have a system to repair armor already, so a different way of repairing tools could be made along with this. Adding a reforging system could be vary fun. 

Additionally a sharpness system like I presented above doesn't need to be a repair system.

[Krougal]

5 or 10 gear...gears...GEARS??? I mean seriously WTAF

Unless they up the drop rates by a lot.

Are you trolling us or I just didn't explore enough in 1.20 PR?

 

[Khornet]

8 hours ago, Krougal said:

5 or 10 gear...gears...GEARS??? I mean seriously WTAF

Unless they up the drop rates by a lot.

Are you trolling us or I just didn't explore enough in 1.20 PR?

Spoiler

Nadiya (the unique village location with new NPCs) spawns some 25 000 - 30 000 blocks away from the 0,0 coordinates, so unless you're cheating it's unlikely you're going to be exploring it any time soon, unless you're prepared for late-game already.

As for gears... 1.20 introduced a pretty viable method of "infinitely" farming them... probably better than highly unreliable double-headed drifters in temporal storms.
It includes going DEEP underground and slaying tier 4 shivers. Once again though, late-game only (steel armor and weapons practically mandatory).

 

Edited December 6, 2024 by Khornet