'RPG Elements' Debate

[CastIronFabric]

1. My impression is that a lot of people like to say what an RPG is as if they are the definitive source of the definition. To be fair, this could simply be my in ability to read properly 'between the lines'. For example if a person says 'What an RPG is...' I do not assume they actually mean 'An RPG means to me is...' so that is a bit of a disclaimer on my part there.

2. I do not think there is a clear definition one could consider actionable on. In fact, even AI (which aggregates what we say) is very vague on the question. When I asked 'What are the parameters of an RPG' I basically got 'character progression' which depending on what one means by 'character progression' could mean nearly every single game ever made.

I also asked 'Does RPG need to have a story' Answer: no. 'Does RPG need to have a skill system: Answer: no. 'Does an RPG have to have Lore'? Answer: no.

The computer gaming industry (I am thinking so called AAA) even since around 1980 has latched on to the idea that an RPG is mostly about 'the story'. RPG actually came from table top war games. The basic idea was 'what if you played as person instead of an entire regiment?' That gave birth to the game Chainmail and then later D&D. In fact I started playing D&D during that transition. So it might have become 'story focused' somewhat by force over time but its not its birth.

The reason I give this example is that the modern context of what an RPG is might not be in alignment with those who played in the 80s and the definition might change even more so and in the end its just subjective now.

So...When a developer says a game will have 'RPG elements'

what

does

that

mean?

go...

 

[Thorfinn]

Agreed that Gygax/Arneson did not emphasize the story elements, or skills, other than levelling. The story and the play-acting and the goofy voices came later. Maybe 2e, though there were local variants. The Stanford contingent had numbers-based gaming that led to the question of 67th level Waldorf pushing Thor off a cliff and wondering how many XP he should get, while lots of Chicago players described in detail how they were attempting to pick locks, and bypassed the whole idea of having a thief in the party to roll his "pick locks".

I think it's mostly tilting at windmills, though. Those of us who remember the historical roots are getting a little thin on the ground. It's kind of like insisting that "liberal" means "lover of liberty" like it used to, instead of the modern definition of "government supremicist."

Edited July 27, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Steel General]

In a role-playing game, one plays a role.

If you're not playing a role, it doesn't really matter how many stats they are or that they develop. If the way you play the game doesn't change with the role you've decided you're adopting on this playthrough, it's not a role-playing game. Conversely, if you play the game differently depending on what role you've decided to adopt, it doesn't matter that there aren't stats or development.

Battleship can be a role-playing game if you decide to make it so - just decide at the beginning if you're the fleet commander or just the highest-ranking officer near the radio when the fleet commander got killed, and play accordingly.

Most important, though, is that playing the role is the game: if playing Battleship as the plucky ensign means you never win, that's more-or-less fine, because that's the role you've chosen to play.

Of course, the joy of role-play is greatly enhanced by narrative and development.

[CastIronFabric]

9 minutes ago, Steel General said:

In a role-playing game, one plays a role.

If you're not playing a role, it doesn't really matter how many stats they are or that they develop. If the way you play the game doesn't change with the role you've decided you're adopting on this playthrough, it's not a role-playing game. Conversely, if you play the game differently depending on what role you've decided to adopt, it doesn't matter that there aren't stats or development.

Battleship can be a role-playing game if you decide to make it so - just decide at the beginning if you're the fleet commander or just the highest-ranking officer near the radio when the fleet commander got killed, and play accordingly.

Most important, though, is that playing the role is the game: if playing Battleship as the plucky ensign means you never win, that's more-or-less fine, because that's the role you've chosen to play.

Of course, the joy of role-play is greatly enhanced by narrative and development.

right so. GTA is a role playing game given said logic.

I am trying to be neutral as to my own personal definition of what an RPG is or is not. However I am responding to your definition to provide as much clarity as possible to your definition.

As a side note, per number 1 on my OP list, I do wish people would be very clear as to if they are stating THE definition of RPG or their own personal definition of an RPG. If they are providing THE definition I wish they would provide some sources that make THE definition clear other than themselves.

Edited July 28, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[CastIronFabric]

23 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Agreed that Gygax/Arneson did not emphasize the story elements, or skills, other than levelling. The story and the play-acting and the goofy voices came later. Maybe 2e, though there were local variants. The Stanford contingent had numbers-based gaming that led to the question of 67th level Waldorf pushing Thor off a cliff and wondering how many XP he should get, while lots of Chicago players described in detail how they were attempting to pick locks, and bypassed the whole idea of having a thief in the party to roll his "pick locks".

I think it's mostly tilting at windmills, though. Those of us who remember the historical roots are getting a little thin on the ground. It's kind of like insisting that "liberal" means "lover of liberty" like it used to, instead of the modern definition of "government supremicist."

..and change is fine, its just helpful to know that one's audience might not have the same implicit understanding of what is being said. Additionally its not like the word 'RPG' is on par with Roosevelt saying 'Bully' in its transformation of understood meaning. We aint dead yet!

 

[Maelstrom]

57 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

As a side note, per number 1 on my OP list, I do wish people would be very clear as to if they are stating THE definition of RPG or their own personal definition of an RPG. If they are providing THE definition I wish they would provide some sources that make THE definition clear other than themselves.

It is safe to assume that what everyone posts will implicitly be preceded with IMO because of how you composed your original post; the heart of which is a simple question, "What do you think an RPG is?"

As @Steel General mentioned ANY game could be considered a role playing game in the broadest of definitions.  Monopoly, as an example, everyone plays the role of real estate mogul by definition when they choose a game token.  Progression is measured by a growing net worth measured by property owned, developed and cash on hand.  Storytelling is through the events of the game.  Even children playing "Let's Pretend" could be considered a role playing game.

Gygax and Arneson created a specific genre of game we now call RPG which is played out primarily in the imagination as opposed to a board, stack of cards or other physical objects.  Yes RPGs may use physical objects, they are merely aids to the imagination.  In this more restricted concept of RPG I've found that the basics are Character Progression, Storytelling and Player Agency.  My use of AI has a variety of qualities that come up that could ultimately be placed into those categories.

[CastIronFabric]

2 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

It is safe to assume that what everyone posts will implicitly be preceded with IMO because of how you composed your original post; the heart of which is a simple question, "What do you think an RPG is?"

 

no.

Given how important my observation that RPG is subjective and is the entire reason I created this thread I would have to say no.

But even in normal context I do not make that assumption

Edited July 28, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Maelstrom]

57 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

Given.. that RPG is subjective and is the entire reason I created this thread...

Yes.  You have by your very words explicitly invited people's opinions.  Therefore, people do not need to put a disclaimer that their opinion is.. their opinion.

I find it interesting that you ignored my contribution to the conversation to camp out on this point.  

[CastIronFabric]

17 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Yes.  You have by your very words explicitly invited people's opinions.  Therefore, people do not need to put a disclaimer that their opinion is.. their opinion.

I find it interesting that you ignored my contribution to the conversation to camp out on this point.  

I am asking you directly to please explicitly state if something is your opinion or not in the words you use, as expressed by number 1 on my list.

please do so for clarity so that during the conversation there is no confusion as to which assertion a person is making is an opinion or an assertion of fact.

thank you

The origins of this thread I created was born in the confusion between people stating fact vs opinion, so lets just be super clear. If I felt everyone agreed that RPG Elements is highly subjective I never would have created this thread to begin with. The meaning of that can be surmised in the final question of my OP which is:

'So...When a developer says a game will have 'RPG elements..what..does..that...mean''

which is what started this entire subject matter for me because I was not confident in another persons assumption that this developer would be in full agreement with them on what that term meant.

as such, lets be specific please.

Edited July 29, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Thorfinn]

22 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

Monopoly, as an example, everyone plays the role of real estate mogul by definition when they choose a game token.

That was an example I was going to use, but my post got too long. My nieces and nephews like to choose the pieces they can do sound effects to. One niece always takes the dog so she can do yipping terrier barks, and a nephew loves the racecar complete with "Vroom!" and "Screech!" noises as appropriate. 

[Maelstrom]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

That was an example I was going to use, but my post got too long. My nieces and nephews like to choose the pieces they can do sound effects to. One niece always takes the dog so she can do yipping terrier barks, and a nephew loves the racecar complete with "Vroom!" and "Screech!" noises as appropriate. 

Yeah.  That sounds like something I'd do even though it's been 40 years since my brother and I last played.

[CastIronFabric]

21 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

That was an example I was going to use, but my post got too long. My nieces and nephews like to choose the pieces they can do sound effects to. One niece always takes the dog so she can do yipping terrier barks, and a nephew loves the racecar complete with "Vroom!" and "Screech!" noises as appropriate. 

so its safe to say when a dev says a game will have 'RPG Elements' that could mean literally anything.

INCLUDING...the developer of this game. Is that fair to say?

Edited July 30, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Thorfinn]

Yes, but from a marketing POV, that's a good thing. It means whatever the reader wants it to mean. Each will fill in whatever elements he wants in a game. I'm going to be a little ageist here, but I suspect Tyron means more or less what the rest are posing about -- story, progression, that kind of thing.

[EDIT]

Can you think of a better way to show how flexible the engine is than to have a mod be able to function as the game Hytale wanted to be?

Edited July 30, 2025 by Thorfinn

[CastIronFabric]

11 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Yes, but from a marketing POV, that's a good thing. It means whatever the reader wants it to mean. Each will fill in whatever elements he wants in a game. I'm going to be a little ageist here, but I suspect Tyron means more or less what the rest are posing about -- story, progression, that kind of thing.

[EDIT]

Can you think of a better way to show how flexible the engine is than to have a mod be able to function as the game Hytale wanted to be?

what started this conversation on my side is when in another thread I made the following comment (its paraphrased)

[fake quote]Given how so many developers these day consider heavy story to be a critical pillar to any 'RPG' it is the only thing I can think of that is related to RPG that one might want to create an entirely different game for. I also think its presumptuous of us to assume the VS Developers shares any one specific definition of an RPG element with them saying so [/fake quote]

If a developer considers 'RPG elements' to mean 'a skill system' well that could easily be added to existing game with an option to turn on or off. However, if one wants to tell a story (or even a different story), I can see how trying to create a game that has a story but is not required for gameplay could impact the story itself. If you start with a blank canvas and want to go a story direction then making a stand alone game would make sense.

Does that seem like a reasonable opinion?

 

 

[Thorfinn]

Yes. But on the flip side, I do not see Adventure Mode offering the option to shut off the story. That's a major draw for those who want "RPG elements", regardless of what that means.

I do think you are underestimating the draw of the artistic style, though. I'd imagine you could get a massive following for a manga art style game. Though it would require heaps of protected blocks, even a game that looks and plays very similar to Portia or Sandrock would be pretty easy. Stardew could get a major upgrade, complete with a vastly simpler modding system.

Edited July 30, 2025 by Thorfinn

[CastIronFabric]

21 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Yes. But on the flip side, I do not see Adventure Mode offering the option to shut off the story. That's a major draw for those who want "RPG elements", regardless of what that means.

I do think you are underestimating the draw of the artistic style, though. I'd imagine you could get a massive following for a manga art style game. Though it would require heaps of protected blocks, even a game that looks and plays very similar to Portia or Sandrock would be pretty easy. Stardew could get a major upgrade, complete with a vastly simpler modding system.

fair point. I predict the new 'mode' will be a narrative driven experience. The functional feature list of Hytail would work in VS and not conflict with existing game play (I would think) but the ascetics, lore and possible narrative would. which is in part why I say I think it would be going that way.