A Discussion about the decision to pickup Hytale and include it into Vintage Story as a Mode instead of making a separate game, & on if picking up Hytale is a good idea. RESPECTFUL RESPONSES ONLY.

[Teo9631]

On 8/12/2025 at 7:01 PM, Murklak said:

If the studio failed today, I would have already gotten my money's worth from their labor. Everything else is extra, including both further development on Vintage Story and any side project they invest in. Complaining that they aren't spending your money the way you want is entitled and ignores that they earned that money through their labor and can do whatever they want with it.

Are you for real? That is the most pathetic, bootlicking nonsense I've ever read.
"I got my money's worth" is a you problem. Nobody else cares. Early Access isn't a charity donation; it's a pre-purchase based on a PROMISE to finish a product. The features they sold us on aren't "extra," they're the bare minimum of the deal we paid for.
Calling people "entitled" for expecting a company to not run off with the money is a clown take. They earned that money under a specific premise, and if they fail to deliver, they've broken their end of the bargain. Complaining isn't just a right, it's a duty to warn other people not to get scammed by a studio that can't finish the job.

Stop defending failure. It's embarrassing.

Early Access is a pact: you give us money now, we finish the game later. Full stop. It's not a GoFundMe for their "labor." 

The mindset of some consumers is just painful to read. I swear to god, some of you deserve to be scammed.

Edited August 13, 2025 by Teo9631

[cosmobeau]

6 hours ago, Teo9631 said:

Good grief.

Consumers these days. You don't have a shred of critical thinking. I really hate to be offensive, but reading this thread is giving me a headache.

The OP has basically spelled it out for you.

We are upset because we bought an early access product and we expect it to reach a full release one day.

There are some clear indicators that this decision was made more on sentimentality than rationality, which brings us a risk of jeopardizing the product we invested in. Another thing is that anything even remotely connected to Hytale smells like trouble. Just look up the game's development history—there was clearly an extremely high level of incompetence involved.

What is there to not understand? There are literally no simpler terms to explain this to you

Yeah the claim that it's a good opportunity for Angeo Studios is a little dubious since ya know, Hytale failed. 

After some good takes on this thread I'm less concerned for the development for Vintage Story for sure. Some of the other takes however seem a little... Biased? I didn't really have a strong opinion one way or another about the devs when writing the original post, but I certainly had a opinion about the update post when reading it- with no prior knowledge of the community's overwhelming endearment and the drama surrounding the decision. So no, I'm not trying to feed anything, honestly I thought I was an outlier in my opinion, especially seeing people's reactions to my concerns about picking up Hytale.

Devs seem very nice, and the mods are cool. I was more having a strong opinion about the singular event of the announcement, and what was said in it. Not anything else.

[cosmobeau]

6 hours ago, Teo9631 said:

Are you for real? That is the most pathetic, bootlicking nonsense I've ever read.
"I got my money's worth" is a you problem. Nobody else cares. Early Access isn't a charity donation; it's a pre-purchase based on a PROMISE to finish a product. The features they sold us on aren't "extra," they're the bare minimum of the deal we paid for.
Calling people "entitled" for expecting a company to not run off with the money is a clown take. They earned that money under a specific premise, and if they fail to deliver, they've broken their end of the bargain. Complaining isn't just a right, it's a duty to warn other people not to get scammed by a studio that can't finish the job.

Stop defending failure. It's embarrassing.

Early Access is a pact: you give us money now, we finish the game later. Full stop. It's not a GoFundMe for their "labor." 

The mindset of some consumers is just painful to read. I swear to god, some of you deserve to be scammed.

Although I do severely disagree with mentioned person's take, I'm not completely convinced they're so off base.

Yes, when you make a profit and you're ahead in your projects, it makes sense to pickup more teams and make more games. To my knowledge the reveal of the secret project wasn't met with much drama, for example. If they want to take in more teams under their studio and make new games, because so many people bought the first game they were making, that is so reasonable.

However, people should get concerned, and are allowed to criticize when they feel yet another early access game might be stalled or not fully developed due to events that have occured within other failed projects. I'm not saying VS is gonna fail, but if someone sees a studio pickup a failed project because it was their friends, yeah that seems like not the best idea.

I do feel like I got my money's worth too, I mean Minecraft costs more and offers very little in comparison to Vintage Story. I think VS  is worth more. I mean if there's more chapters to come, hell I wouldn't even mind buying reasonably priced "dlc", I think the game honestly deserves a higher price. Or at least, at full release, it should cost moderately more. They've truly made something great, and they should use their engine to... Make other, separate games. It doesn't actually need to be in VS if the true plan is to make it a fully fledged game to begin with.

Things like Dwarf Fortress Adventure Mode makes sense. That's an actual "mode". What Angeo is actually making is a separate game. And yes, like unreal engine or RPG engines, there are plenty of games that use the same engine. But are separate games.

It's weird to call this failed game, that's now picked up by a team now making two unfinished games, a mode, when they say it's goal is to be it's own game. It would make more sense to treat it like its own game from the get go, instead of doing this weird limbo act first with Vintage Story involved.

I don't think anyone deserves to be scammed and I don't think this is a scam. I think it's a HIGHLY questionable and confusing decision that MAY impact not just VS but the game they picked up, since they're not even commiting to it being its own game, despite that being the goal.

I DO think that shutting down people's valid concerns and criticisms just because you personally fancy a dev team that you don't even know personally is incredibly flawed logic too, though. Like you're right there, consumer logic has skewed in the age of parasocial feelings imo.

Edited August 14, 2025 by cosmobeau

[Krougal]

I think y'all are reading too much into and dwelling on the "friends" thing a bit too much. Or maybe it's just cause I haven't payed a lot of attention to the other threads either, and I skimmed past the part where he said he was best buds with these people.

Relationships with former coworker friends are usually a little more complicated than your "outside" friends.

Sure my best friend is a former coworker, and I have some really close friends that were former coworkers, but most of them once you leave the job (or for military, even just get redeployed) life happens and you just fall out of touch with people.

You might reconnect if you find yourself working together again, or just in the same locale.

Maybe if you find yourself looking for people for a project, you will think of recruiting the more talented and useful of them, but nobody I've ever met who is running a successful business is going to just throw money away because they liked some people when they worked together.

I've got some people who I've worked with who I like very much, but I wouldn't want to work with again, or even put my reputation on the line to give them a referral they don't merit. Some very likeable people just lack work ethic and skills, a lot of my extended family fall into this category. I wouldn't give them jobs or lend them money...

And yes, I don't know what has happened to consumer expectations either, they are just at an all time low. I love how even people will leave a fairly negative review, even with well thought out and legitimate gripes, but it's like they are still afraid to hurt anyone's feelings so they give a thumbs up on Steam, or like 3 or 4 stars on Amazon. Then there is the over-tipping thing. Combined with a general decline in customer service. Don't get me started on the tips screen at the point of sale systems. You put my order in a bag and checked me out. That is not service. That doesn't merit a tip.

I must be doing something wrong in my life, since I work hard for my money too and I don't feel the need to give it away. With the way the inflation has been lately, I feel like I've got a lot less disposable income in general. 

Edited August 14, 2025 by Krougal

[Rudometkin]

On 8/9/2025 at 3:37 AM, cosmobeau said:

I do really respect the game devs, I'm just wondering why pick up a project that's already failed.

Some artists pick up creative projects not because of what they are, but because of what they envision them to be!

Edited August 14, 2025 by Rudometkin
Typo

[Teo9631]

4 hours ago, Krougal said:

I think y'all are reading too much into and dwelling on the "friends" thing a bit too much. Or maybe it's just cause I haven't payed a lot of attention to the other threads either, and I skimmed past the part where he said he was best buds with these people.

Relationships with former coworker friends are usually a little more complicated than your "outside" friends.

Sure my best friend is a former coworker, and I have some really close friends that were former coworkers, but most of them once you leave the job (or for military, even just get redeployed) life happens and you just fall out of touch with people.

You might reconnect if you find yourself working together again, or just in the same locale.

Maybe if you find yourself looking for people for a project, you will think of recruiting the more talented and useful of them, but nobody I've ever met who is running a successful business is going to just throw money away because they liked some people when they worked together.

I've got some people who I've worked with who I like very much, but I wouldn't want to work with again, or even put my reputation on the line to give them a referral they don't merit. Some very likeable people just lack work ethic and skills, a lot of my extended family fall into this category. I wouldn't give them jobs or lend them money...

And yes, I don't know what has happened to consumer expectations either, they are just at an all time low. I love how even people will leave a fairly negative review, even with well thought out and legitimate gripes, but it's like they are still afraid to hurt anyone's feelings so they give a thumbs up on Steam, or like 3 or 4 stars on Amazon. Then there is the over-tipping thing. Combined with a general decline in customer service. Don't get me started on the tips screen at the point of sale systems. You put my order in a bag and checked me out. That is not service. That doesn't merit a tip.

I must be doing something wrong in my life, since I work hard for my money too and I don't feel the need to give it away. With the way the inflation has been lately, I feel like I've got a lot less disposable income in general. 

You've absolutely nailed it. And no, you're not doing anything wrong with your money—you just actually value the work it took to earn it.
I run my own business, and I still scrutinize every cent. The only thing that truly horrifies me is waste; the idea of just setting money on fire for no return is a nightmare. It’s about respecting the effort.
Regarding consumer expectations... you're dead right, and I'll be blunt: my business, and every other smart business, capitalizes on it. We almost have to. It's a race to the bottom, and if I don't play the game, a competitor will, and they'll eat my lunch.

Everyone wants to paint businesses as the villain, but they're just a mirror held up to society. We simply provide what the average consumer has proven they will pay for. You hate what corporations are doing? Stop buying from them. The power has always been in the hands of the consumer, they've just forgotten how to use it.

Frankly, the average consumer today has been so thoroughly domesticated that they will thank you for putting them in a cage as long as you paint the bars a nice color. One business figures that out, and the rest have to follow or perish. The standard will keep dropping until consumers finally grow a spine and decide they've had enough.

[Katherine K]

4 hours ago, cosmobeau said:

Yeah the claim that it's a good opportunity for Angeo Studios is a little dubious since ya know, Hytale failed. 

There's so much that goes into a game project failing, though, that's far beyond whether the concept and the team are good or not. I don't want to reduce this to "luck," because that would imply that better decisions were not available, but making a game is a bit like putting together a team for a heist. If everyone worked as a team, but the person whose job it was to get the plans for the bank vault didn't get the correct schematics, and the safe cracker was preparing for the wrong type of a vault mechanism, well, maybe they still can do their job, but maybe not. From outside, it just looks like a failed heist. If you know the crew and the job, maybe you know what needed to be different.

I admittedly know less about what happened at Hypixel Studios than probably anyone on the core VS team, and possibly even less than some other people on this forum, so I'm filling a lot of the blanks with general dev experience. And I don't really know anyone from the pre-acquisition by Riot days. I know a couple of engineers who got hired after that, and might've heard a few things that aren't general knowledge, but nowhere near insider levels. So take this as an educated guess or complete conjecture if you will, but I have been paying attention to the updates as they were since the first announcement through a lens of someone who's been working in the same field.

My take, for what it's worth, is that the crucial failure points of Hytale as a project are in things that Vintage Story as an engine and a platform has already successfully navigated. One of the big stumbling blocks for Hytale has been the engine. I still only understand game design and art at a hobbyist level, but game engines are literally my job, and VS has an elegant, flexible engine which is the exact fit for the parameters of a project like Hytale. There's a shit ton of tech art work that needs to be done, and probably some improvements to the renderer to make it an aesthetic fit, but mechanically, I can't name you an engine that does the job better for what Hytale needs. The only thing I'd call out as a big missing feature is better enemy behaviors and AI, but I don't think it's a huge challenge to implement these, and it sounds like that just wasn't high on priority list for VS.

There's obviously more to it: the combat, the crafting mechanics, magic and enchantments, more player interactions and socials. But these are things that you'd generally find at gameplay level, rather than engine. Think of it like things that'd go into a mod vs core engine. The engine already does nearly everything I can think of. The gameplay features on top of it have to be built out. Design, code, and art. But that's just the standard craft of making a game.

The other big part was Riot's expectations. It's not that Hytale as a concept can't explode to Minecraft or Roblox levels of popularity. It's that it's not guaranteed to. I think we all would call Vintage Story a success already, even if it never gets bigger than it is now. But Riot can shit out a cheap mobile game with one of their IPs, and it will perform better from purely financial side of things. The VS scale just isn't worth the trouble for them. They needed Hytale to be Big or they needn't bother. But without Riot's involvement, it really doesn't have to be an enormous success to be a successful indy project. It might still grow into one, but it's not a failure if it doesn't. If you look back at that original 2018 announcement trailer, and that scale of the project... If that exact concept started its life as a VS mod rather than a Minecraft mod, I think it might have just hobbled along to a launch with no other changes to the timeline.

And there is a lot in there that is well proven on MC mods and non-blocky RPGs. Minigames, PVP, raids, general progression, socials... These are, in industry terms, solved problems. There are people who know how to make these things fun. Visually, the style seems to be well received, and while a bit niche, it isn't a risk factor. That adds up to a successful game when it's properly staffed and managed.

With that in mind, I can absolutely see a way that somebody intimately familiar with the project and well acquainted with people who worked on it through the years, could look at this and see a way to succeed where the original team failed. This isn't trying the same thing again and expecting a different result. This is quite literally trying to do things differently to get the result you actually wanted.

[LadyWYT]

4 hours ago, Katherine K said:

My take, for what it's worth, is that the crucial failure points of Hytale as a project are in things that Vintage Story as an engine and a platform has already successfully navigated. One of the big stumbling blocks for Hytale has been the engine. I still only understand game design and art at a hobbyist level, but game engines are literally my job, and VS has an elegant, flexible engine which is the exact fit for the parameters of a project like Hytale. There's a shit ton of tech art work that needs to be done, and probably some improvements to the renderer to make it an aesthetic fit, but mechanically, I can't name you an engine that does the job better for what Hytale needs. The only thing I'd call out as a big missing feature is better enemy behaviors and AI, but I don't think it's a huge challenge to implement these, and it sounds like that just wasn't high on priority list for VS.

From what I understand of the situation, Hytale was a shippable product a few years back--I think even after Riot acquired it--at least as an early access game. There was, apparently, something actually playable there, and the conjecture I've heard seems to be that Riot was fairly hands-off regarding development and happy to let the devs do their thing and simply fund the work. What killed Hytale seems to be that someone, I dunno who, decided that instead of launching something playable so that players could start enjoying the product they'd been waiting for and giving feedback...instead decided to rewrite the entire game engine to work on different code type instead since it would be "better for the future". That's a really big ask and a huge drain on time and resources, and really an unneeded change if you've already got a functional product.

[Krougal]

5 hours ago, Teo9631 said:

I'll be blunt: my business, and every other smart business, capitalizes on it. We almost have to. It's a race to the bottom, and if I don't play the game, a competitor will, and they'll eat my lunch.

Everyone wants to paint businesses as the villain, but they're just a mirror held up to society. We simply provide what the average consumer has proven they will pay for. You hate what corporations are doing? Stop buying from them. The power has always been in the hands of the consumer, they've just forgotten how to use it.

Frankly, the average consumer today has been so thoroughly domesticated that they will thank you for putting them in a cage as long as you paint the bars a nice color. One business figures that out, and the rest have to follow or perish. The standard will keep dropping until consumers finally grow a spine and decide they've had enough.

Absolutely, hate the game, don't hate the player.

I love when people start going on about the evil stock holders. I am one of the evil stockholders. My 401k is invested in it. That is my retirement, I really don't give a fuck if you make nuclear weapons or kill kittens if the ROA is good enough. All I am looking for is for my wife and I to be comfortable in our old age. We live pretty modestly. With the average life expectancy these days and staggering medical costs, that still requires a couple million. Yes, that makes me part of the problem, but I didn't make the rules.

[cosmobeau]

6 hours ago, Katherine K said:

There's so much that goes into a game project failing, though, that's far beyond whether the concept and the team are good or not. I don't want to reduce this to "luck," because that would imply that better decisions were not available, but making a game is a bit like putting together a team for a heist. If everyone worked as a team, but the person whose job it was to get the plans for the bank vault didn't get the correct schematics, and the safe cracker was preparing for the wrong type of a vault mechanism, well, maybe they still can do their job, but maybe not. From outside, it just looks like a failed heist. If you know the crew and the job, maybe you know what needed to be different.

I admittedly know less about what happened at Hypixel Studios than probably anyone on the core VS team, and possibly even less than some other people on this forum, so I'm filling a lot of the blanks with general dev experience. And I don't really know anyone from the pre-acquisition by Riot days. I know a couple of engineers who got hired after that, and might've heard a few things that aren't general knowledge, but nowhere near insider levels. So take this as an educated guess or complete conjecture if you will, but I have been paying attention to the updates as they were since the first announcement through a lens of someone who's been working in the same field.

My take, for what it's worth, is that the crucial failure points of Hytale as a project are in things that Vintage Story as an engine and a platform has already successfully navigated. One of the big stumbling blocks for Hytale has been the engine. I still only understand game design and art at a hobbyist level, but game engines are literally my job, and VS has an elegant, flexible engine which is the exact fit for the parameters of a project like Hytale. There's a shit ton of tech art work that needs to be done, and probably some improvements to the renderer to make it an aesthetic fit, but mechanically, I can't name you an engine that does the job better for what Hytale needs. The only thing I'd call out as a big missing feature is better enemy behaviors and AI, but I don't think it's a huge challenge to implement these, and it sounds like that just wasn't high on priority list for VS.

There's obviously more to it: the combat, the crafting mechanics, magic and enchantments, more player interactions and socials. But these are things that you'd generally find at gameplay level, rather than engine. Think of it like things that'd go into a mod vs core engine. The engine already does nearly everything I can think of. The gameplay features on top of it have to be built out. Design, code, and art. But that's just the standard craft of making a game.

The other big part was Riot's expectations. It's not that Hytale as a concept can't explode to Minecraft or Roblox levels of popularity. It's that it's not guaranteed to. I think we all would call Vintage Story a success already, even if it never gets bigger than it is now. But Riot can shit out a cheap mobile game with one of their IPs, and it will perform better from purely financial side of things. The VS scale just isn't worth the trouble for them. They needed Hytale to be Big or they needn't bother. But without Riot's involvement, it really doesn't have to be an enormous success to be a successful indy project. It might still grow into one, but it's not a failure if it doesn't. If you look back at that original 2018 announcement trailer, and that scale of the project... If that exact concept started its life as a VS mod rather than a Minecraft mod, I think it might have just hobbled along to a launch with no other changes to the timeline.

And there is a lot in there that is well proven on MC mods and non-blocky RPGs. Minigames, PVP, raids, general progression, socials... These are, in industry terms, solved problems. There are people who know how to make these things fun. Visually, the style seems to be well received, and while a bit niche, it isn't a risk factor. That adds up to a successful game when it's properly staffed and managed.

With that in mind, I can absolutely see a way that somebody intimately familiar with the project and well acquainted with people who worked on it through the years, could look at this and see a way to succeed where the original team failed. This isn't trying the same thing again and expecting a different result. This is quite literally trying to do things differently to get the result you actually wanted.

Oh geez, Riot Games picked them up?

That does change a few things at least for my personal opinion LOL. I've been playing League of Legends since launch. And I've seen their history with League, but more importantly their other games. Anything not related to the League universe seems to get shafted. I mean I didn't even hear of Hytale, and I'm always in the Riot Game Launcher Client. I don't have enough knowledge to say this is a fact, however just from a single player's experience; they did nothing to hype up, advertise, or even mention Hytale in a way that was noticeable to their player base.

I also in this forum post, will hit two birds with one stone here. As I see some new faces roll into this post who agree with a lot of my points, but are a touch more inflammatory, I would like to make it clear:

I don't think this is a scam, and I don't think even the most wack takes disagreeing with me deserve to get scammed. 

There are also great opposing takes like those from Katherine here and one of the mods that have greatly shifted me away from being concerned about Vintage Story's development.

I don't think people who have attacked me personally and not my take deserve vitriol back. I have an strong opinion online and I have enough virtual knowledge to know there's a POSSIBILITY  that I'm going to get hateful comments back, and enough maturity to accept that and not let it effect me personally. That's why you notice, when I reply to one of those takes, I jokingly brush off what they say to me- I don't dunk on them as a person, because that's how threads spiral into Xbox live lobby behavior.

It's also just the better play to try to follow netiquette as much as possible. You look a lot more persuasive and intentional with your take if it is on topic and you're not throwing shade the whole time.

Even though I don't have a huge, fully formed relationship or opinion on the devs, I would say so far I do find everyone who works at the studio reasonable, personable, fair, and as transparent as a human being can be. I don't think they're hiding a bunch of BS behind a curtain whatsoever.

And on the topic of money and them being able to do what they want with it, I agree to that too. Because at full development, honestly I would fork over more around $40 for VS. I truly think the game is worth more than Minecraft's current price. That might be a crazy hot take, idk. It just has way more to offer in content, gameplay, hell even just the basic aspects of it feel way more rewarding gameplay wise. They are obviously working on it at a reasonable pace, and if they have an influx of income it makes sense to pick up more teams and make more games.

That's why I think(?) there wasn't much drama around the Secret Project reveal. I think *originally* my statement was more, well if the plan was to make it it's own fully fleshed seperate game, I was confused why they wouldn't start it that way from the get go while utilizing the same engine.

I'm now way more split on that original take BECAUSE people disagreed, and instead of just post that they're mad at me, they actually have information as to why they disagree, without being rude. So please, if you disagree with them- carry that same energy!

The best posts on here so far are those who are explaining why I shouldn't be so concerned. And they understand the gap of, me a single person criticizing the singlar decision of a whole game studio and their lead, not them completely and everything they've ever done. 

And also realize I'm literally one person from the outside. The people who are ACTUALLY involved with the game I'm criticizing, which means that criticism is technically more aimed at them, are way more peaceful and reasonable then players on here getting mad at my take.

Like if that doesn't show how cool the team is I don't know what does!

Edited August 14, 2025 by cosmobeau

[Katherine K]

5 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

From what I understand of the situation, Hytale was a shippable product a few years back--I think even after Riot acquired it--at least as an early access game. There was, apparently, something actually playable there, and the conjecture I've heard seems to be that Riot was fairly hands-off regarding development and happy to let the devs do their thing and simply fund the work. What killed Hytale seems to be that someone, I dunno who, decided that instead of launching something playable so that players could start enjoying the product they'd been waiting for and giving feedback...instead decided to rewrite the entire game engine to work on different code type instead since it would be "better for the future". That's a really big ask and a huge drain on time and resources, and really an unneeded change if you've already got a functional product.

I'd take it with a grain of salt. A lot of this mirrors closely statements Simon has been making about Hytale development lately, and while I don't want to accuse him of intentionally misrepresenting the situation, from his posts, he comes off as someone who embellishes the situation a bit. Not in a snake oil salesman kind of way, but rather as someone who's excited about something and wants other people to be as well. And since he's currently trying to retake control of the Hytale IP, that is coming out a bit one-sided.

Specifically, he started claiming that the game was ready to ship, but then backed down to early access when pressed on it with questions. Which, I'm not saying there would be anything wrong with shipping Hytale as EA if it's developed by an indy studio, but "ready to ship," implies a very different state of the game. Ready to ship is gold, polished, post-beta. EA is a late-pre-alpha to early-alpha build with a vertical slice polished to beta quality, and it's mostly that slice that gets shipped. There are months or years of work in between.

And I've heard different accounts of the engine swap, which ranged from, "This was completely unnecessary and sabotaged the project," to "It was necessary to do eventually to support all the features the team wanted to for full release, and releasing EA before the engine swap would just leave EA in limbo with no updates until that's done." The truth is probably more in the, "It's complicated," pile. Simon insisting that it's purely the former makes me skeptical of that account.

All of this is with the caveat that I don't know the person; I'm going purely by recent and some historical posts. And I don't want to make it sound like someone's intentionally lying or obscuring the situation. Just cautioning against taking that as the whole story.

That said, yeah, there is no reason to doubt that the playable, fun version of Hytale existed within the studio at one point. The disagreement is purely on how much from the original pitch was missing, whether that was critical, and whether it could be built up incrementally on top of a released EA. And these last two points are conditional on who's releasing the game. Building your own minigames Roblox style was a big part of a pitch, and probably very important to Riot for monetization. It might not matter nearly as much to an indy game, and they can just settle for "modable", for example. If these sort of compromises let you keep the old engine, then EA's back on the table, etc. So I'm still curious to see how all of that Simon-negotiating-with-Riot story plays out.

[cosmobeau]

On 8/14/2025 at 10:34 AM, LadyWYT said:

From what I understand of the situation, Hytale was a shippable product a few years back--I think even after Riot acquired it--at least as an early access game. There was, apparently, something actually playable there, and the conjecture I've heard seems to be that Riot was fairly hands-off regarding development and happy to let the devs do their thing and simply fund the work. What killed Hytale seems to be that someone, I dunno who, decided that instead of launching something playable so that players could start enjoying the product they'd been waiting for and giving feedback...instead decided to rewrite the entire game engine to work on different code type instead since it would be "better for the future". That's a really big ask and a huge drain on time and resources, and really an unneeded change if you've already got a functional product.

"...In a new update, Collins-Laflamme confirms that he is now "in active discussions with Riot Games about acquiring Hytale.”

...One day prior to this announcement, Collins-Laflamme revealed that he had "Just made my final counter offer, the only chance to see Hytale. I'm going all in. This is the timeline. Let's fucking go." He adds that "The offer is 10x what the true market value is," and cautions that there's a lot of work to be done. "They have no team, no-one can even start or compile the game anymore. I hired most who could and will continue to do so in the coming days. Hytale is by the players, for the players." " This article is from 2 days ago:

https://www.pcgamesn.com/hytale/riot-discussions

Are they going to be able to even use anything from Hytale if the founder can't buy it back from Riot...? I'm so confused and that offer sounds so bad for them. That sucks. And I don't know about the state of the game, but the quotes from the founder themself doesn't sound super promising.

Edited August 16, 2025 by cosmobeau

[LadyWYT]

58 minutes ago, cosmobeau said:

Are they going to be able to even use anything from Hytale if the founder can't buy it back from Riot...? I'm so confused and that offer sounds so bad for them. That sucks. And I don't know about the state of the game, but the quotes from the founder themself doesn't sound super promising.

I don't think they're intending to use Hytale assets in the first place, at least in Anego's case, aside from hiring former Hytale staff. As for those trying to salvage Hytale...if they can't get the rights back from Riot, their only real option is starting over and building something similar to Hytale but different enough to avoid getting sued. Which I mean...is very doable, if they can acquire and manage the resources needed. 

I do agree though, it sounds like bad news. Honestly, I would be surprised if Riot let the rights to Hytale go without someone offering a very lucrative deal, given how much potential the game concept has for both popularity and monetization. 

[Thorfinn]

On 8/13/2025 at 5:01 PM, Teo9631 said:

"I got my money's worth" is a you problem. Nobody else cares. Early Access isn't a charity donation; it's a pre-purchase based on a PROMISE to finish a product.

Wrong. Go back and look at the terms you agreed to when you handed over your money.

Just like any other offering, you paid a discounted present value. $20 gets you $20 product plus reasonable ROI. I figure my cost per hour is well under a half cent now. Yeah, I got my money's worth and then some, and don't be an ass about it. If you haven't at least reached Summer once yet, and dropped your exposure to under a buck an hour, why not? That $20 you spent was probably a mistake on your part.

On 8/14/2025 at 5:02 AM, Katherine K said:

The engine already does nearly everything I can think of.

It's missing status effects. Or more specifically, they're not generalized sufficiently. Once that is in, attributes and key/values can handle everything else. Even the data structure itself lends itself to JSON.  Magic becomes nothing more than, for example, decrementing a mana counter according to JSON-defined rules, and applying JSON-defined status effects to the JSON-defined entities it affects. There are several other workable models, too. But somehow the engine has to at least communicate to something which entities are in a given area of effect, which, to the best of my knowledge, is still specifically coded for essentially static rifts affecting the stability of seraphs and only seraphs in the AOE, and a little more broadly in lightning.

[Krougal]

8 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Wrong. Go back and look at the terms you agreed to when you handed over your money.

Just like any other offering, you paid a discounted present value. $20 gets you $20 product plus reasonable ROI. I figure my cost per hour is well under a half cent now. Yeah, I got my money's worth and then some, and don't be an ass about it. If you haven't at least reached Summer once yet, and dropped your exposure to under a buck an hour, why not? That $20 you spent was probably a mistake on your part.

Wrong. Go back and look at the terms you agreed to when you handed over your money.

ROI has nothing to do with it. While it's a good way to console yourself over buying a game, especially if it happens to fail or even just no longer meets your expectations when out of early access. I don't think I have ever seen ROI mentioned in an EA disclaimer.

You are paying for an incomplete game with the reasonable expectation that it gets finished. While it is always said that if you aren't happy with the game in it's current state, maybe you should wait to buy it, because shit happens and it is a gamble, if we make excuses for every developer that doesn't finish a game, we are left with nothing but vaporware and half-finished garbage.

Edited August 16, 2025 by Krougal

[Thorfinn]

17 minutes ago, Krougal said:

You are paying for an incomplete game with the expectation that it gets finished.

Go hack and look. Was that promised, or was that only your expectation?

Crap, read the click-throughs on the software you use. Even top-shelf, full-release software isn't warranted to do anything, even install.

[EDIT]

True to form, I didn't express the last post very well. The discounted present value and ROI is the absolute most anyone should expect in a value-for-value exchange. Any value-for-value exchange.

[EDIT2]

In case that was not clear, by top-shelf, I mean things like Windows, Linux or MacOS. They do not promise anything.

Edited August 16, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Krougal]

  

2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Go hack and look. Was that promised, or was that only your expectation?

Crap, read the click-throughs on the software you use. Even full release software isn't warranted to do anything, even install.

"How finished/playable is this game?
We consider Vintage Story to still be in early access, not due to its lack of stability and performance, but because our full vision is far from implemented. The game is fully playable and offers rich and varied gameplay from the Stone Age through to the Steel Age, including a number of story elements. The game is being developed with a carefully planned release cycle to always offer very stable gameplay. As for its completion - we cannot really put a time on it because we see no reason not to keep adding new content for many years to come. That being said, going through the main challenges alone should easily offer at least 100 hours of engaging gameplay."

They don't consider it done. That implies they intend to continue to work on it.

I don't care to play shithouse lawyer with you enough to go look through Steam EA disclaimers, or argue it past this post, so you can have the last word, but even if it isn't explicitly stated, it is pretty much implied. You are paying for access to the game as it is, with the expectation that it is going to continue to be updated and you will continue to receive those updates for no additional fee. Otherwise we start calling it abandonware.

[cosmobeau]

1 hour ago, LadyWYT said:

I don't think they're intending to use Hytale assets in the first place, at least in Anego's case, aside from hiring former Hytale staff. As for those trying to salvage Hytale...if they can't get the rights back from Riot, their only real option is starting over and building something similar to Hytale but different enough to avoid getting sued. Which I mean...is very doable, if they can acquire and manage the resources needed. 

I do agree though, it sounds like bad news. Honestly, I would be surprised if Riot let the rights to Hytale go without someone offering a very lucrative deal, given how much potential the game concept has for both popularity and monetization. 

I don't think it was popular at all, actually. No one I know knows about Hytale, and I have quite huge group of gamer friends and family that are into niche games. Whenever I see people talk about Hytale, or I go look into it, I also get mostly people giving it bad reviews or saying it doesn't even look interesting.

Like people claim it was popular, but I really don't think it was at all. Not even survival sandbox circles I've been in have ever brought it up, and we have dozens of survival games made by indie devs.

Even the article I quoted claims it was "one of the most popular open world survival games" linking to a top 10, but if you actually click on that article, Hytale isn't even mentioned.

So like... Now, they're trying to salvage Hytale, when they don't even know if the founder can get the rights back, and say the game is compromised to the point that it's not startable nor compilable, and if they can't we'll possibly get a spin off of a spin off ...? A game based off a game in an unfinished game? Does that sound ideal to anyone?

If they can't get the rights and they make a similar game right after, and vintage story is involved, then Angeo could get sued by riot games. Which would definitely impact the development of VS. and any other game they're making. Just look at how Palworld is doing with their constant battle with Nintendo.

Honestly now with copyright involved and the game being in pieces why in the world would you want to pick this up? I could be totally off base here, but how the heck is the founder getting money worth "10x the value" of Hytale from??? Why did they sell it to riot in the first place if they could get that money? It all sounds incredibly sketchy.

Edited August 17, 2025 by cosmobeau

[LadyWYT]

45 minutes ago, cosmobeau said:

Even the article I quoted claims it was "one of the most popular open world survival games" linking to a top 10, but if you actually click on that article, Hytale isn't even mentioned.

Well, Hytale was never technically a game, since nothing playable actually launched. So it wouldn't make sense to include it in lists like that.

 

46 minutes ago, cosmobeau said:

I don't think it was popular at all, actually. No one I know knows about Hytale, and I have quite huge group of gamer friends and family that are into niche games. Whenever I see people talk about Hytale, or I go look into it, I also get mostly people giving it bad reviews or saying it doesn't even look interesting.

Like people claim it was popular, but I really don't think it was at all. Not even survival sandbox circles I've been in have ever brought it up, and we have dozens of survival games made by indie devs.

I think it's more accurate to say that the idea was popular, at the time it was announced. I forget exactly what was going on with Minecraft at the time, but I think by then the community was quite large, and had mixed reactions to what was happening in Minecraft at the time. Some wanted a game different than what Minecraft was turning into, and thus started working on their own thing, which was Hytale. Tyron was one of those people, and ended up splitting ways with the Hytale team later when Hytale turned out to not really be what he was looking for either.

In any case, the trailer dropped, a lot of people got really excited because it looked cool and seemed like it would be a great alternative to Minecraft where none really existed. And then...nothing. No news, no playable demo, nothing. I never really followed Hytale too closely myself, as while it looked cool I was skeptical since I'd been burned on game hype before(the infamous Yogventures, anyone? ). There probably was news, but I don't recall seeing any mention of Hytale post-trailer until they announced the acquisition by Riot Games. After that, it was pretty much radio silence until they announced it would be free-to-play, somehow, and the complete engine rework. At that point I just lost whatever shred of interest I had in it, and didn't see more news until they announced the cancellation.

My general conclusion is that the conditions were certainly there for a successful game to be made, but the trailer was dropped way too early--they should have made the announcement when they were close to having something playable, so all the hype wouldn't be for nothing. Since it was dropped early though, without at least a follow-up demo, people started asking questions, the hype died, and most just forgot about Hytale's existence, for the most part. The times it did resurface in the news(like the Riot acquisition), a bit more hype was generated, but it was also met with a lot of skepticism given that a lot had been promised with little to show for it.

57 minutes ago, cosmobeau said:

So like... Now, they're trying to salvage Hytale, when they don't even know if the founder can get the rights back, and say the game is compromised to the point that it's not startable nor compilable, and if they can't we'll possibly get a spin off of a spin off ...? A game based off a game in an unfinished game? Does that sound ideal to anyone?

It sounds a little goofy, and given Hytale's history(and Riot's as well), I'm highly skeptical of any good product getting produced until there's a playable proof-of-concept. Until either Riot, or the founder, can produce such a product, it's just more talk without an actual game.

As for what Tyron and Anego Studios are doing with the Adventure Mode concept though, I'm not that skeptical of it and am inclined to believe they'll do a good job on the adventure. They have a solid track record taking care of Vintage Story so far, and though there have been some bumps in the road the issues were addressed and fixed rather quickly. It might still take a while for an "Adventure Mode" to be playable, but as long as they keep up their current standards I don't have any qualms about seeing something good later.

1 hour ago, cosmobeau said:

If they can't get the rights and they make a similar game right after, and vintage story is involved, then Angeo could get sued by riot games. Which would definitely impact the development of VS. and any other game they're making. Just look at how Palworld is doing with their constant battle with Nintendo.

I haven't followed the issue too closely, but last I recall, Nintendo wasn't faring too well in either the lawsuit or with its customers. I suppose Riot could decide to sue Anego Studios over Adventure Mode, but what would they really stand to gain? Not a lot, that I can think of, but they could stand to lose a lot of their customers if they start looking like Nintendo. That's not to say they would or wouldn't sue, just that I don't really see that scenario being anything more than a "what-if" right now. 

I'll also note it's not against the law to make a similar product--look at how many Oreo knock-offs there are, for example. Likewise, there are plenty of games that are similar to each other, or fit into the same genre but are very different. League of Legends is one of the most well-known MOBAs out there, but it's not the only MOBA--Heroes of the Storm(RIP), DOTA, SMITE, and...I think it was Heroes of Newerth(that was a thing, right?) that all implement similar concepts and weren't created/owned by Riot, but Riot didn't sue those studios for having something similar.

Not to say you shouldn't be concerned about any of it, or shouldn't keep an eye on the situation. I just don't think it's worth getting terribly worked up over given the present evidence.

1 hour ago, cosmobeau said:

Honestly now with copyright involved and the game being in pieces why in the world would you want to pick this up? I could be totally off base here, but how the heck is the founder getting money worth "10x the value" of Hytale from??? Why did they sell it to riot in the first place if they could get that money? It all sounds incredibly sketchy.

Well if I ran a game studio and had a chance to pick up developers that I knew could both do the job while getting along with me and my current team, I'd hire them too if I had the resources available to do so. Saves the trouble of trying to sort through resumes and taking risks on more unknown individuals.

As for copyright...the key there is to make something similar to what Hytale was supposed to be, but different enough that it's clearly its own thing. Vintage Story versus Minecraft is a good example--they're both similar, in that they have similar voxel-based graphics, crafting concepts, and the like...but they're also very different in gameplay and appearance. 

As for whatever is going on between Hytale's founder and Riot regarding money and the game's sale in general...I have no idea. I would assume it was sold to Riot because Riot offered a lot of money, and lots of money is hard to say no to.

[Krougal]

@cosmobeau I thought it was just a generic RPGish Minecraft clone. I mean I had heard of it, but like you said none of my friends were talking about it. I had been looking forward to it on the backburner, like a bunch of other games just like it that have also mostly turned into vaporware.

Was there even anything new or unique enough in their IP for anyone other than the owners to care?

Edited August 17, 2025 by Krougal

[LadyWYT]

7 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Was there even anything new or unique enough in their IP for anyone other than the owners to care?

I mean...they had little sprout-plant people creatures...that's about all I recall that really stood out as unique. Most of it was pretty generic fantasy, which isn't to say it was bad, but it wasn't anything I would call "groundbreaking" in terms of design. Most of the hype stemmed from it being a possible competitor to Minecraft, at a time when many were getting frustrated with Minecraft.

[Krougal]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I mean...they had little sprout-plant people creatures...that's about all I recall that really stood out as unique. Most of it was pretty generic fantasy, which isn't to say it was bad, but it wasn't anything I would call "groundbreaking" in terms of design. Most of the hype stemmed from it being a possible competitor to Minecraft, at a time when many were getting frustrated with Minecraft.

Cabbage patch kids? LOL

[LadyWYT]

14 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Cabbage patch kids? LOL

Lol not quite. I think they were called kweebeks or something? 

[Katherine K]

7 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

It's missing status effects. Or more specifically, they're not generalized sufficiently.

That's the sort of thing that I usually think of as part of gameplay code, rather than engine. But I suppose, VS has a somewhat unconventional engine/gameplay split, so I can see how having a framework be part of the engine would make it a lot more convenient to work with. Just something to store mode-agnostic data attached to a character or entity, with any processing/procs/ticks still being handed by the mode (or any mod, really).

Nothing stops you from just having a lookup in the mode now, tbh, but a framework would make it cleaner and easier to mod. So definitely a win.

[Facethief]

14 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Lol not quite. I think they were called kweebeks or something? 

Yeah, that’s what they were called.