i love this game, but bloody windmills!... a rant

[Galdor_Mithr]

ok so, i'm a bit of a nerd about history (and i have autism has to be said) so i was very excited when i got to combine traditional black smithing (something i do for fun) and windmills (something iv nerded out about for my entire life) and iv got a grumble that i need to get off my chest so i can get on with my life.

the large wheel cog has a 5 to 1 advantage IT SAYS IT IN THE WIKI even tho the little cog is animated much faster that that it seams, so why dose everything grind to a halt when i swap the original system (straight from the wind mill to the hammer 1 to 1) for the big wheel? instead of getting better result at lower wind speeds the whole thing has ground to a halt after cycling the hammer a few times (at a promising rate at that) has it over speeded? why isn't that mentioned in the literature if that is the case!

the only logical thing i can think of is that i need grater wind speed to turn the large "cog" but that is not the case cos when i uncouple the hammer from the main axle (witch should snap btw there's not enough support for it being that long) the main cog wheel spins freely and has no problem, witch is why i tried to think positively "go figure the wind is by passing the sail due to the increased load ill see if i can find a water wheel that's much more efficient reliable and i can build a lovely little flowery mill pon... not in the game..." *internal screaming*.

also why can't i put a mill stone institute to the main down shaft to act as a fly wheel for grater efficiency, output and momentum and the rest of that stuff?
 
so now iv thrown the big "cog" down a big hole and i will never look at it again....  until i build a new base in the tropics where i plan to retire after collecting all the lore, good riddance.

and breath

 be well, stay warm!

~Galdor the fool

[Thorfinn]

I'm not picturing it very well. Best I can imagine it is you have the windmill rotor connected to an angled driving gear to an angled driven gear. That gear is on the same shaft as the large gear, which drives the helve? If so, that would take a heck of a wind. Not even sure it's possible. It normally takes 3 sets of sails to drive a helve at a 1:1 ratio.  If you are using the setup I described,  a  1:5 ratio, you would need between 11 and 15 sets of sails to drive it. 

Incidentally, what you describe, connecting the helve and it slowing to a stop, is how the game handles underpowered machinery.

Edited November 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Teh Pizza Lady]

a 5:1 advantage is a *speed* advantage

With increased speed from the same power source comes reduced torque. That torque is no where near enough to drive the helve hammer, so the system grinds to a halt. When it's 1:1 connected to the windmill, the torque is high enough to power the helve hammer, but at a lower speed.

The way to use the large gear is for splitting the drive train (small gear turning large gear > large gear turning 3 other smaller gears)
OR
Long distance transmission

Allow me to make a detailed explanation to tickle the deep recesses of your brain. The individual shafts put stress on the overall system and the longer your shaft is, the less rotational speed you can have to work with. However the speed loss over distance is a constant loss, not proportional! So what this means is that no matter how fast you spin the shaft, if it loses 5 RPM over the distance, then it will only lose 5 RPM over that distance. This means you can connect the large gear to your windmill, use it to drive a smaller gear to speed it up, and then on the other end connect the a smaller gear to drive a larger gear. You will lose the same amount of speed over that distance, but because the speed was higher, when you convert it back down, it's less speed lost over all. This is why electric transmission lines are 60,000 volts or even higher. That high of a voltage doesn't carry much current compared to the overall system load, so the wires won't heat up as much. The voltage only drops by a few hundred volts down to 59,000+ volts at the other end. Engineers do the math to match it to 115-120v the system needs (for USA; 240 in other countries). If they had loaded the transmission lines with 120v at the station, it would have traveled a fraction of the distance before the wire's resistance lowered the voltage to an unusable amount.

Vintage Story applies this same principle for long-distance rotational power transmission as well.

Let's math it out. Assume 5 RPM lost over a distance of 100 blocks. I don't know the actual values, so this is just an assumption to make math easier.

If you have a starting RPM of 8, then over 100 blocks it will lower to 3 RPM of usable speed.

Now imagine a contraption that speeds up the RPM at a 5:1 ratio. This means you now have 40 RPM to work with, give or take a few for resistances and losses in conversion. Over that same 100 block distance, the speed will only drop to 35 RPM. Converting it back gives 7 RPM which is more than double the original 3 RPM you were left with before.

I'd go get that large cog wheel before it despawns. It's still quite useful!

2 hours ago, Galdor_Mithr said:

also why can't i put a mill stone institute to the main down shaft to act as a fly wheel for grater efficiency, output and momentum and the rest of that stuff?

Because it's a millstone (I assume you mean quern) which means it's going to put a load on the system, by design... You'd want a fly wheel instead which unfortunately doesn't exist in the game.....yet. They will likely be introduced when Anego adds steam power to the game. Other players have suggested them but so far no one has made a mod for it yet in the meantime.

Edited November 4, 2025 by Teh Pizza Lady

[LadyWYT]

5 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Other players have suggested them but so far no one has made a mod for it yet in the meantime.

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/34066

[Teh Pizza Lady]

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/34066

ah yeah that mod...It doesn't *just* add a flywheel but also steam power. Interesting. I had no idea this existed.

[Galdor_Mithr]

11 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

a 5:1 advantage is a *speed* advantage

With increased speed from the same power source comes reduced torque. That torque is no where near enough to drive the helve hammer, so the system grinds to a halt. When it's 1:1 connected to the windmill, the torque is high enough to power the helve hammer, but at a lower speed.

The way to use the large gear is for splitting the drive train (small gear turning large gear > large gear turning 3 other smaller gears)
OR
Long distance transmission

Allow me to make a detailed explanation to tickle the deep recesses of your brain. The individual shafts put stress on the overall system and the longer your shaft is, the less rotational speed you can have to work with. However the speed loss over distance is a constant loss, not proportional! So what this means is that no matter how fast you spin the shaft, if it loses 5 RPM over the distance, then it will only lose 5 RPM over that distance. This means you can connect the large gear to your windmill, use it to drive a smaller gear to speed it up, and then on the other end connect the a smaller gear to drive a larger gear. You will lose the same amount of speed over that distance, but because the speed was higher, when you convert it back down, it's less speed lost over all. This is why electric transmission lines are 60,000 volts or even higher. That high of a voltage doesn't carry much current compared to the overall system load, so the wires won't heat up as much. The voltage only drops by a few hundred volts down to 59,000+ volts at the other end. Engineers do the math to match it to 115-120v the system needs (for USA; 240 in other countries). If they had loaded the transmission lines with 120v at the station, it would have traveled a fraction of the distance before the wire's resistance lowered the voltage to an unusable amount.

Vintage Story applies this same principle for long-distance rotational power transmission as well.

Let's math it out. Assume 5 RPM lost over a distance of 100 blocks. I don't know the actual values, so this is just an assumption to make math easier.

If you have a starting RPM of 8, then over 100 blocks it will lower to 3 RPM of usable speed.

Now imagine a contraption that speeds up the RPM at a 5:1 ratio. This means you now have 40 RPM to work with, give or take a few for resistances and losses in conversion. Over that same 100 block distance, the speed will only drop to 35 RPM. Converting it back gives 7 RPM which is more than double the original 3 RPM you were left with before.

I'd go get that large cog wheel before it despawns. It's still quite useful!

Because it's a millstone (I assume you mean quern) which means it's going to put a load on the system, by design... You'd want a fly wheel instead which unfortunately doesn't exist in the game.....yet. They will likely be introduced when Anego adds steam power to the game. Other players have suggested them but so far no one has made a mod for it yet in the meantime.

nice one mate makes more sense now. I do mean quern in game the reason i say all of what i have said is cos the irl windmills/water wheels iv been to see often have the mill stone in the middle floor of the mill and run the saft through the mill stone so it can act as a fly wheel, in fact there needs to be one or two brakes one for the windmill/waterwheel and one for the stone (and others for the haulage Crain). There is so much energy available after the energy spent on the stone that the mill uses that energy to haul the grain to the very top top of the mill load it into a hopper and drop it though a chute in to the mill stone (quern), when there was not enough wind for this in wind mills the workers would uncouple the haulage crane and carry grain up the stairs in sacks on there backs (big oof). finally no i will not be getting that wheel back as I am done with the concept of mechanical power past helping me with the blooms and plates ill build a much more pretty looking wind mill for my flower mill and pie making bakery since I'm on single player i don't need more that one quern and a simple grain chute.

[Galdor_Mithr]

11 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/34066

wish i had the computing power to use mods but my laptop is already struggling. thank you for the suggestion though.

[Galdor_Mithr]

11 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I'm not picturing it very well. Best I can imagine it is you have the windmill rotor connected to an angled driving gear to an angled driven gear. That gear is on the same shaft as the large gear, which drives the helve? If so, that would take a heck of a wind. Not even sure it's possible. It normally takes 3 sets of sails to drive a helve at a 1:1 ratio.  If you are using the setup I described,  a  1:5 ratio, you would need between 11 and 15 sets of sails to drive it. 

Incidentally, what you describe, connecting the helve and it slowing to a stop, is how the game handles underpowered machinery.

sorry mate i think were on different tracks here, the down shaft from the windmill is connected straight to a large cog, witch is connected to a little cog that in turn is connected to the helve's gearbox that when engaged drives the helves toggle lifting the hammer arm. i am unable to lengthen the sails anymore than i have so i assume i have the max amount per windmill. i assumed a five to one rotation out put from the large god as the wiki says it improves output by a factor of 5. the concept of in game power has been explained and i'm done with the concept of drive trains multiple out puts esc esc.

[MKMoose]

If the windmill is connected to the large gear in such a way that one rotation of the windmill causes five rotations of the shaft that drives the helve, then you have a 1:5 gear ratio, making the helve hammer able to work five times as fast. However, because the large gear has five times higher radius, it transfers force using a that much longer lever and so has five times lower torque.

Every mechanical part has a certain resistance, and the torque on the driving axle has to be high enough to overcome that resistance - otherwise it will not be able to turn (or if it's already turning and higher resistance is applied, it will slow down and stop). By lowering the torque transferred to the helve using the large gear wheel, you're increasing the torque that has to be produced by the windmill to overcome the helve's resistance.

You can make it work, but you will need higher power input. You may need something like three full windmills, but the exact value will depend on a bunch of other factors as well, including how much uptime you want.

The devs have said they aim to add more mechanical power parts, including a water wheel once they have a good river implementation as well, so perhaps we're gonna have that not too far into the future.

[Thorfinn]

16 hours ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Because it's a millstone (I assume you mean quern) which means it's going to put a load on the system, by design... You'd want a fly wheel instead which unfortunately doesn't exist in the game.....yet.

I don't believe a flywheel would help in this case. I think he's simply not got enough power. Flywheels do not create rotational energy, they just store it. A flywheel is not a perpetual motion device. You still have to supply enough energy to drive the helve in the first place. The flywheel will just even out the dips and surges common to wind power. And I know you know this, @Teh Pizza Lady. I'm just not sure that the OP does.

I had not realized the friction losses are constant RPM decreases. I've always assumed they are constant power losses. That might mean very large setups might be better off using 3 of the spaces for the rotors, the 4th to be a step-up "transformer". Might have to look into that. Assuming I ever build on that scale, I mean.

@Galdor_Mithr, five sails cannot provide enough power to drive the helve if you are using a large gear to speed up rotation. What you have done is convert your 5-sail rotor to a 5x faster 1-sail rotor with not quite as much power output.  Putting a flywheel on it will at best decrease the rate at which it grinds to a halt once you connect the helve. In general, until you know what you are doing, you should use large gears in pairs, one at the rotor level and one at the machinery level. They should be on the same shaft. If you are not using multiple rotors, you should probably not be using large gears at all, unless you are using one to get greater speed out of a quern.

@Galdor_Mithr, the point the Wiki is trying to make is that the large gear trades torque for speed and vice versa. It does not create energy.

Edited November 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Teh Pizza Lady]

2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I had not realized the friction losses are constant RPM decreases. I've always assumed they are constant power losses. That might mean very large setups might be better off using 3 of the spaces for the rotors, the 4th to be a step-up "transformer".

Try it in a creative world... which I know is hard for you since you cycle through permadeath worlds faster than it takes to type this... LOL

[Thorfinn]

18 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Try it in a creative world

How would I distinguish between a power loss and a speed loss? It's been several versions since I tested, because it's such a pain, but I was pretty sure what I was seeing was a linear drop in rotational energy, not a linear drop in angular velocity.

[EDIT]

I guess what I'm getting at is whether there's some easier method of finding speed than counting frames? Some info popup that tells me the RPM or something?

Edited November 4, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Teh Pizza Lady]

4 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I guess what I'm getting at is whether there's some easier method of finding speed than counting frames? Some info popup that tells me the RPM or something?

this is why I suggested a creative world because you'll have access to the auto rotor there and you can set the exact speed. The creative motor has a constant torque so when you set the speed, you can easily judge the speed losses over a distance. I'm not aware of any info popups that give RPM.

[Galdor_Mithr]

5 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

I don't believe a flywheel would help in this case. I think he's simply not got enough power. Flywheels do not create rotational energy, they just store it. A flywheel is not a perpetual motion device. You still have to supply enough energy to drive the helve in the first place. The flywheel will just even out the dips and surges common to wind power. And I know you know this, @Teh Pizza Lady. I'm just not sure that the OP does.

I had not realized the friction losses are constant RPM decreases. I've always assumed they are constant power losses. That might mean very large setups might be better off using 3 of the spaces for the rotors, the 4th to be a step-up "transformer". Might have to look into that. Assuming I ever build on that scale, I mean.

@Galdor_Mithr, five sails cannot provide enough power to drive the helve if you are using a large gear to speed up rotation. What you have done is convert your 5-sail rotor to a 5x faster 1-sail rotor with not quite as much power output.  Putting a flywheel on it will at best decrease the rate at which it grinds to a halt once you connect the helve. In general, until you know what you are doing, you should use large gears in pairs, one at the rotor level and one at the machinery level. They should be on the same shaft. If you are not using multiple rotors, you should probably not be using large gears at all, unless you are using one to get greater speed out of a quern.

@Galdor_Mithr, the point the Wiki is trying to make is that the large gear trades torque for speed and vice versa. It does not create energy.

was talking more ratios mate so, i under stood the literature on the wiki as for every one revolutions of the big cog the little cog spins 5 times.

i am not uesing the mod that adds fly wheels i was talking about a real world example of how a mill stone acts as a fly wheel and how it would be cool to have it and the fact i don't understand why its not already there.

i understand that inanimate wheels(cogs) do not create energy out of nowhere.

i think you read the word flywheel and thought we were on about a mod  .

Edited November 4, 2025 by Galdor_Mithr

[Thorfinn]

I was just saying a flywheel or free-rolling millstone is absolutely useless if you are underpowered. And I'm still getting the impression your setup was somewhere between 33% and 45% of required power, even if your rotor was at y=171 and had gale force winds. 

Edited November 4, 2025 by Thorfinn