MKMoose Posted February 3 Report Posted February 3 (edited) Motivation When I say the ranged weapons are simplistic, I mean it. Throwing a spear or shooting a bow only requires to hold the appropriate button for a minimum length of time, after which the weapon can be fired with, as far as I can tell, no other complications. No aiming mechanics, no charge-up, no focus or exhaustion mechanics, nothing of the sort. Momentary accuracy seems to only be influenced by some factors external to the bow like player movement, but otherwise it's constant. This causes a number of design-level issues: most of the time, ranged weapons heavily reward timing and robotic consistency - the faster the player presses their mouse button without undershooting the minimum hold time, the better, even in cases where aiming matters more, timing and accuracy are completely independent - firing recklessly does not mechanically apply any disadvantages as long as the player is able to keep the cursor on target, barring external factors, accuracy is constant, and exact shot placement is ultimately random - it just isn't rewarding to line up a shot neatly, only to have it miss through no fault of the player, there is no reward for aiming carefully beyond placing the cursor on target, and there is no penalty for holding the bow for too long besides opportunity cost, the only penalty for using bows and spears while sprinting is poor accuracy, but that barely matters when shooting at short distances, leading to the cheesy strategy of sprinting backwards and shooting at whatever is chasing the player. There's also a couple of additional issues which are specific to the current balancing: bows require to hold for 0.65 s, which is both completely unrealistic and arguably greatly detrimental from a gameplay perspective, as it further encourages rapid, haphazard shooting, spears require to hold for just 0.35 s, which is even more absurd in several ways, and I'd go as far as to say that combined with high alpha damage it is the single biggest cause behind all balancing problems of spear damage - the spears have vastly higher short-term DPS than both the bow and the falx, so while it's somewhat inconvenient to lug multiple of them around and collect them after throwing, it's nonetheless disproportionately powerful compared to other available options, the sling requires to hold for 0.75 s, somehow the longest, and is further made largely irrelevant by only being able to use weak stone projectiles, as it stands, high fire rate necessitates fairly low damage, which means that individual shots feel extremely unsatisfying and combat is has a "spammy" feel as a result. Goal I think a lot of this ultimately boils down to realism and immersion. And once we know we want to make it more realistic and immersive, then we can create an engaging and rewarding system while making concessions for the sake of fun where necessary. If I were to point to a more specific direction, it would go roughly like this: Broadly, reward deliberate shot placement - as a general rule, hitting one or two difficult but highly damaging shots is incomparably more rewarding than many hits which individually barely matter. Make aiming a skill in itself - shot placement should be influenced by factors that the player can learn to counteract, not just randomness. Focus on making moment-to-moment ranged combat more engaging and enjoyable. Improve hunting to be more focused on stalking a target, a single careful shot, and then pursuing the now weakened target if necessary (hunting in general is something that Tyron has said they would like to work on at some point, and it would arguably be great as well if animals were more difficult to kill and process but yielded more resources). Suggestion There is a number of fairly small changes that would arguably be beneficial and may be implemented with relatively minimal changes, largely but not entirely independent of each other: Increase hold times and damage across the board; could also be done through increasing damage with charge time to also allow for fairly quick but weaker shots and reduce the need for mechanical consistency. Add a brief delay after shooting during which the weapon cannot be charged again to reduce the need for mechanical consistency (can also allow extending the time between uses without making the first use take too long). Reduce or remove randomness after holding for an extra second or so, to allow for more precise long-range shots. Add random camera or crosshair drift primarily or only when holding a weapon for too long and while moving. Add partially predictable camera or crosshair drift while initially drawing the bow, which could be counteracted with experience, to require aim adjustments between consecutive shots, Increase arrow and sling projectile speed, to make them more suitable against fast-moving targets and at greater distances. Add sling projectiles made from lead, and optionally from clay. A full ranged weapon overhaul could be useful as a way to consolidate several of these changes and introduce more complex mechanics, but it's not necessary. It may also allow to unify the system across many weapons, as they currently duplicate a lot of the code for practically the same functionality. Additionally, while I would prefer to stay focused on the basics here, there are also related systems and changes like improved animal AI, improved hitboxes (ideally with weakpoints), status effects (bleed, crippling, etc.), line of sight and hearing, and increased ranged weapon variety, which could all contribute to improving ranged combat and hunting. They could go in tandem to reshape combat as a whole into something more methodical, skillful, dangerous and rewarding. Edited February 3 by MKMoose Finish a sentence. 2
LadyWYT Posted February 3 Report Posted February 3 2 hours ago, MKMoose said: ranged weapons heavily reward timing and robotic consistency 2 hours ago, MKMoose said: exact shot placement is ultimately random I will note that this is fairly realistic when it comes to archery. Shot drift is a thing, and there is a certain ideal firing point to get the most power out of the shot. For Vintage Story, I would argue somewhat that aiming is indeed a skill and takes quite a lot of practice to consistently hit a target with few misses. That being said, I wouldn't mind seeing draw time become a factor. Firing a shot prematurely should reduce the shot's range and damage. Holding the bow at full draw for too long isn't ideal either and should also bring some sort of penalty. 2 hours ago, MKMoose said: Add partially predictable camera or crosshair drift while initially drawing the bow, which could be counteracted with experience, to require aim adjustments between consecutive shots, Really not a fan of this one. I prefer the current style, where there's a indicator of the area the shot could go and that's it. Better quality bows have a very small window in which the shot can potentially go, and thus produce more consistent shots. While it may not be the most realistic, I think a crossbow would be a more ideal way to eliminate shot drift entirely. The expense of crafting one and slow reload times are a fair tradeoff for a weapon that is easily aimed and holds no penalties for being held at full draw. 1
MKMoose Posted February 3 Author Report Posted February 3 (edited) 53 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: I will note that this is fairly realistic when it comes to archery. Shot drift is a thing [...] Fair enough, there is a small window within which a shot is realistically practically random, but for a skilled archer it's much less than the current ~50 cm at 20 m (with no accuracy modifiers). Shot drift could also be less purely random and instead influenced by actual effects like wind strength, making it possible to partially counteract it. 53 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: [...] and there is a certain ideal firing point to get the most power out of the shot. There isn't, though, as far as I know? You could hold a bow for as long as your muscles don't start giving out, I think, within reason, with little to no practical difference in terms of power or accuracy within a pretty respectable time window. And even if there is a relatively short optimal firing point, the current implementation only relies on a simplistic threshold after which the arrow can be launched with no further increase to neither power nor accuracy, and also doesn't have an upper limit for how long the bow can be held, which is hardly realistic. 53 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: 3 hours ago, MKMoose said: Add partially predictable camera or crosshair drift while initially drawing the bow, which could be counteracted with experience, to require aim adjustments between consecutive shots, Really not a fan of this one. I prefer the current style, where there's a indicator of the area the shot could go and that's it. Better quality bows have a very small window in which the shot can potentially go, and thus produce more consistent shots. This seems to be almost entirely unrelated to what you quoted and more to the previous point, or I'm misunderstanding something. Just in case, I'll note that by "camera or crosshair drift" I mean the actual camera rotating slightly or the crosshair moving across the screen, by "accuracy" or "spread" I typically mean what you seem to be referring to as "shot drift" (shot drift is typically less random and more due to wind as far as I know). Either way, I can briefly explain the intent behind both parts of the suggestion: random camera or crosshair drift when moving or holding a weapon for too long - primarily intended as a more involved and interesting mechanic than just random spread, to impose a penalty for improper shooting but still allow to hit the shot with some skill, instead of purely with luck, partially predictable camera or crosshair drift when initially drawing the bow - expressly intended only to force the player to readjust their aim after each shot in a way that can be mitigated with experience for faster consecutive shots (admittedly, I would have to try playing with it to know if it's not too annoying). 53 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: While it may not be the most realistic, I think a crossbow would be a more ideal way to eliminate shot drift entirely. The expense of crafting one and slow reload times are a fair tradeoff for a weapon that is easily aimed and holds no penalties for being held at full draw. Regardless of exact implementation, a crossbow should be easier to use effectively than a bow at the cost of primarily reload time. Reduced shot drift seems like a fairly reasonable way to do it, though I would be careful not to make the crossbow preferable at long distances due to better accuracy. More intuitive advantages for the crossbow would probably include a much longer or indefinite optimal window to take a shot, due to the ability to keep it drawn and ready for long periods of time. Edited February 3 by MKMoose
LadyWYT Posted February 3 Report Posted February 3 2 minutes ago, MKMoose said: This seems to be almost entirely unrelated to what you quoted and more to the previous point, or I'm misunderstanding something. Just in case, I'll note that by "camera or crosshair drift" I mean the actual camera rotating slightly or the crosshair moving across the screen, by "accuracy" or "spread" I typically mean what you seem to be referring to as "shot drift" (shot drift is typically less random and more due to wind as far as I know). Either way, I can briefly explain the intent behind both parts of the suggestion: random camera or crosshair drift when moving or holding a weapon for too long - primarily intended as a more involved and interesting mechanic than just random spread, to impose a penalty for improper shooting but still allow to hit the shot with some skill, instead of purely with luck, partially predictable camera or crosshair drift when initially drawing the bow - expressly intended only to force the player to readjust their aim after each shot in a way that can be mitigated with experience for faster consecutive shots (admittedly, I would have to try playing with it to know if it's not too annoying). Ah okay, that makes more sense. The main issue I see though, is that it creates an accessibility issue. Similar camera motions in the game, like the severely wounded camera wobble, can cause motion sickness and other issues for players that are sensitive to them. While it's easy(or would be easy) enough to toggle those off without affecting overall gameplay, I don't think the same could be said for such a change to ranged combat. A toggle the disables the camera drift would make it more accessible, yes, but it would also defeat the purpose of implementing such a change if most players end up just toggling the wobble off(we're right back where we started, if not having every shot be 100% accurate). 8 minutes ago, MKMoose said: Reduced shot drift seems like a fairly reasonable way to do it, though I would be careful not to make the crossbow preferable at long distances due to better accuracy. I think in this case, the maximum effective range of the crossbow could just be reduced a bit. Even so, I'm not sure that the range is going to be the deciding factor between the two. Assuming both have the exact same range, the crossbow might be easier to aim and fire, but the bow can fire more shots in the same time it takes for the crossbow to be reloaded after the initial firing. I would expect it to be essentially a choice between one powerful shot that softens up the target but likely doesn't kill it in most cases, or several shots that do less damage per hit but are more likely to kill the target at range due to the quantity of shots fired. Personally, the bow would be my primary choice for overall ranged damage, but the crossbow would be my pick when I need to make that one shot count. 1
MKMoose Posted February 3 Author Report Posted February 3 2 minutes ago, LadyWYT said: Ah okay, that makes more sense. The main issue I see though, is that it creates an accessibility issue. Similar camera motions in the game, like the severely wounded camera wobble, can cause motion sickness and other issues for players that are sensitive to them. While it's easy(or would be easy) enough to toggle those off without affecting overall gameplay, I don't think the same could be said for such a change to ranged combat. A toggle the disables the camera drift would make it more accessible, yes, but it would also defeat the purpose of implementing such a change if most players end up just toggling the wobble off(we're right back where we started, if not having every shot be 100% accurate). True, I've seen some suggestions regarding the camera drift myself. I would expect that camera drift would work best as a penalty for holding the bow for too long, whereas for other purposes (especially while moving) crosshair drift would be much more reasonable as it should involve pretty quick and periodic movements. Using crosshair drift instead of camera drift would avoid the accessibility issue, as far as I'm aware. 1
Heegrim Posted February 12 Report Posted February 12 Sling definitely needs a boost. The weak little arc it does is very unrealistic and lead projectiles are a good idea too. Also there should be an increase in damage and range if you release it at the correct time in the animation. This would make it harder to master but more viable late-game. I agree with boosting the damage and increasing the time between shots for all ranged weapons (especially for spears, there needs to be a delay as you ready the next one so you can't just spam throw 5 spears in 5 seconds). Adding an atlatl (spear thrower) would be cool too, greatly increasing the time to throw and reload but boosting damage and range. Optimal timing for bow shots would be great addition too. Like a sweetspot right as the bow is fully drawn for max damage, but holding for longer will increase your accuracy. There should also be a delay in reloading the next arrow which can be reduced with a quiver.
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