classes should have a stronger identity

[space llama]

hello everyone, this is an idea that`s been bouncing around in my head for a wile, to start of with i`m rather new to using the forums activity so do forgive any small mistakes i make, there may also be some small gaps in my grammar, English is my second language and i struggle a bit with grammar in general. 

i do also apologize if this is something that's been talked about a lot before or already sorted i just found this an interesting topic to bring up. 
 

anyway onward to my main point, right now i feel classes lack more then just a foundation, most of the buffs or things that only they can make feel a bit lacking, wile they have some purpose and place it feels a bit underwhelming, of course i could be alone in thinking this, but things like the sling and blackguard sword feel more like flavor rather the something with overall use, personally id like to see what the classes can make expanded, for example for black guard fixing there armor cost them less or some such, more things tied to the world and what you can find in it. Now when it comes to buffs and debuffs that`s a more tricky one, wile i myself would like a added system that would act much like zomboids system i feel that may be more in the territory of mods, sadly i have very little in nature to suggest myself but still i feel outside of a few traits there is little to set the classes apart from one another, at least as i`ve played them, i haven't really had to change up how i play all that much. 

 

apologies of this has been a bit all over the place again using forums or this forum in general is rather new to me, but i do hope i at least made some sense, of course if this made no sense and is a dumb thing to suggest feel free to tell me so, regardless this is me dipping my toes in to wider suggestion and feedback, thank you if you gave my ideas tough to read trough and good day 

[Fogman]

It's true that the classes don't add much, and they aren't well balanced either. The majority of experienced players pick Hunter or, if they're bored of Hunter or thinking more about the late game, Clockmaker, in order to get the increased movement speed. Personally, I just feel bad if I'm playing the slow classes. Some argue for Malefactor's ability to obtain more gears by selling cracked vessels to traders, but I personally feel like it's easy enough to get enough gears for whatever you want without it. 

If classes were removed from Vintage Story, I wouldn't feel bad about it. If you wanted to roleplay as having a certain background, the 6 available options make for a very limited set to choose from and aren't particularly interesting. If you wanted gameplay customizations, you can't really beat movement speed since it can compensate for everything else. 

If anything, I don't understand why Vintage Story even needs to have classes. If you're playing with friends and class-specific recipes are enabled, then its little more than an inconvenience to whoever volunteers to pick Tailor to make everybody else a tailored gambeson, and a lot of people who play solo already play with the class-specific recipes disabled and then make the gambeson themself (or even obtain a couple pieces of tailored gambeson by other means). 

The way that you personally choose to play Vintage Story says a lot more about who your character is and what they do than whether you clicked "Blackguard" or "Commoner" at character creation, and as far as I'm concerned, that's fine.

[ifoz]

2 hours ago, Fogman said:

If classes were removed from Vintage Story, I wouldn't feel bad about it. If you wanted to roleplay as having a certain background, the 6 available options make for a very limited set to choose from and aren't particularly interesting. If you wanted gameplay customizations, you can't really beat movement speed since it can compensate for everything else. 

If anything, I don't understand why Vintage Story even needs to have classes

The classes all get unique NPC interactions at a certain point in the story, and have a few special dialogue choices.
Assuming there will be more of this in the future, I think classes might help add to the replay value of the main storyline by having slight differences/different paths to take.
They're all shown to be somewhat established characters with their own backstories, though left vague enough that the player can project personality onto them and fill in the finer details themselves.

In terms of balance though, I do agree there could be changes made. Some classes feel a little weak compared to the more powerful ones like Hunter and Blackguard. Tailor especially feels very arbitrary to me, since their perks are all to do with the crafting grid and stat screens rather than actual gameplay.

[LadyWYT]

6 hours ago, ifoz said:

The classes all get unique NPC interactions at a certain point in the story, and have a few special dialogue choices.
Assuming there will be more of this in the future, I think classes might help add to the replay value of the main storyline by having slight differences/different paths to take.
They're all shown to be somewhat established characters with their own backstories, though left vague enough that the player can project personality onto them and fill in the finer details themselves.

This is what I would rather see, personally; more lore tying the classes into the world, whether that's via the class's history, actions they can take toward NPCs, or reactions they get from NPCs. Class-exclusive items are nice to have in multiplayer, but also seem to be a bit of a divisive quality in the community. Traits, I think, are mostly fine as-is, since they provide a nice bonus and some flavor without making any class unviable for singleplayer.

 

12 hours ago, space llama said:

still i feel outside of a few traits there is little to set the classes apart from one another, at least as i`ve played them, i haven't really had to change up how i play all that much. 

6 hours ago, ifoz said:

In terms of balance though, I do agree there could be changes made. Some classes feel a little weak compared to the more powerful ones like Hunter and Blackguard. Tailor especially feels very arbitrary to me, since their perks are all to do with the crafting grid and stat screens rather than actual gameplay.

That being said, I also agree that there is room for some tweaks. Blackguard, I think, could stand to struggle a bit more in the early game, though I think that's better handled by making animals run away faster when the player gets too close. The recent change to animal behavior was okay, but...I can still chase down most boars and otherwise provoke melee fights with rams and things and kill the target before it can run. Some of that is experience, yes, but it's not terribly hard to do, I feel.

Malefactor I'd like to see have some bonus to traps, if not an exclusive trap item. They're very strong in the early game and weaken toward the late game, which is fine, and while they certainly aren't built for combat it would be nice to see them have a couple of more passive options.

Tailor I think is fine as a challenge class, though I also think it could benefit from some sort of "manners" bonus to get better deals/more positive reactions from NPCs, or perhaps start the game with clothes in better condition and have clothing degrade much slower over time.

Hunter is a strong class, but I think that is somewhat okay. That being said, I do suspect that it tends to be an "instant pick" for many players, since it has good bonuses that remain relevant throughout the game, with negligible drawback. I'm not really sure how to tweak the class though without changing the class's flavor too much or creating overlap with other classes. Maybe remove the HP penalty from Malefactor(in exchange for some other penalty) and apply it to Hunter instead? Albeit with a different name, because archers tend not to be either weak or frail(it takes a lot of strength to shoot a bow). However, it's not unusual for ranged characters to be balanced by making them a bit squishy, so it could let Hunter remain a strong class while giving enough penalty for a player to pause and consider if they really want to struggle that much when they get into melee.

As for removing the HP penalty from Malefactor, it would make the class a little stronger for late game fights, without removing the class's identity as the sneaky scavenger sort.

Clockmaker...I don't think there's really much to adjust here until more Jonas tech options are added to the game. It's a weird class that mainly suffers from being made to handle clockwork machinery, but without any clockwork to actually handle. The locust pet is tricky to balance, since if it's too weak then it's useless but if it's too strong then the Clockmaker can easily outclass everyone else.

On the Hunter and Clockmaker movement speed bonus--I don't really want to just up and remove it, however, it does cause a rather goofy problem in relation to Blackguard. You'd think Blackguards would be the fastest ones in armor thanks to their trait that lessens the movement penalty for wearing armor, however, this isn't the case. Clockmaker and Hunter will always be faster except in the case of plate armor, in which case they're evenly matched with Blackguard. I don't think Blackguard should be buffed because it's already strong enough, however...maybe instead of the changes I listed above for Clockmaker/Hunter, the movement bonus could only be applied when they are unarmored. That way the classes retain the useful speed for working around base and scouting the wilds, but they'll have to take a risk if they want to rely on that speed in combat.

[Heegrim]

Classes are definitely due for an overhaul. They are apparently going to add a status effect system next so maybe we will get some class-specific bonuses/weaknesses related to those.

I was definitely bummed when I realized Blackguard's armoured speed buff is categorically worse than the other classes. I agree that the other classes should have their speed boost apply only when unarmoured or in leather armour (since that has no penalties). 

I really dislike % buffs/debuffs in general. They never feel like they really affect anything or differentiate the classes.

The class specific recipes are kind of annoying but I like the idea of repairing armour being cheaper for blackguards. It doesn't lock anyone out of crafting but it gives a niche for that class. Maybe clockmaker should have cheaper recipes for gears and other mechanical parts.

The thing that really needs a rework is the predator AI. There needs to be better ways to avoid them since everyone just picks the speedy classes so they can outrun bears and wolves. Wolves should really only attack the player IF they run away, and standing your ground should cause them to think twice (unless they have pups). They should be able to be scared off by waving a torch at them or something too. Bears should also attack a bit less often (except polar bears), the wildlife is too unrealistically aggressive in this game and they barely make any noise or leave tracks so they are difficult to avoid. You basically just have to cheese them and it breaks immersion. The fast classes just make the cheese easier and that's their main difference.

[LadyWYT]

22 minutes ago, Heegrim said:

Wolves should really only attack the player IF they run away, and standing your ground should cause them to think twice (unless they have pups).

I'm more inclined to say that wolves should be relatively shy when they're alone and shouldn't directly attack the player in that case unless provoked. However, they could howl to summon their packmates and then attack the player once another wolf or two shows up.