Proposal for improvement of the progression system

[MushuBG]

Hello,
I’m not sure if this topic has already been discussed, but I wanted to ask the community for their opinion on it.

I’ve been playing the game for about a year (with around 100 to 150 hours played), and I’ve spent most of that time playing with friends in groups of 3 to 5 players (which may explain my suggestion).

I really appreciate the developers’ work and the current state of the game, but I feel that the current progression system is somewhat lacking.

In my opinion, there is not enough incentive to use certain technologies, such as copper or bronze (which I personally only use for about an hour of gameplay, or even less—just to mine tin to make bronze, and then to mine iron). I think this reduces the game’s longevity and doesn’t encourage players to adapt to their equipment or their environment.

I also think the game is missing a technology tree, or something similar, that would require players to meet certain prerequisites: having a certain level in a specific skill (for example farming, mining, forging, or building), constructing specific buildings for forging, or simply crafting and using a certain number of bronze tools before being able to progress to the next age.

This could also give more purpose to books and paper, which could be required or used in a research table or something similar, where players could conduct research using certain materials to unlock new technologies or progress to a new age.

I understand that the ideas I’m suggesting would probably be quite complex to implement, but I just wanted to hear your thoughts on the matter.

PS: I am not English so excuse me for any potential spelling mistakes.

[PoisonedPawn777]

I'd be happy to see smaller scale changes to progression; I usually have access to both copper and tin within a few days. Copper is however very useful beyond the copper age though so that doesn't bother me. Iron can be acquired early but usually at the cost of not doing other things. Considering the forging updates in 1.22, I'd suggest the iron age has already been spaced out a bit from the bronze age albeit the iron age is much stronger now than before. I'd find it quite frustrating to be cramped into the confines of a specific skill or tech tree, I want to have freedom in progression. Now, I've never played multiplayer, I can imagine that makes progression quite a bit faster and easier, but the focus of balance in the game should always be centered around the single player experience. There are mods that add skill trees and the like which may be worth a look for you!

[LadyWYT]

12 minutes ago, MushuBG said:

I also think the game is missing a technology tree, or something similar, that would require players to meet certain prerequisites: having a certain level in a specific skill (for example farming, mining, forging, or building), constructing specific buildings for forging, or simply crafting and using a certain number of bronze tools before being able to progress to the next age.

This is something I would really hate to see implemented. It's a system that works in some games, yes, but one of the core strengths of Vintage Story is that things aren't locked behind specific skills that have to be leveled in order to build/use things. The player can easily take their time progressing through the game and enjoy each tech level to its fullest extent, or they can really push their progression and rush through the tech levels they don't enjoy as much, if they have the knowledge and resources to do so. Likewise, players who find really good gear in ruins/cracked vessels(tin bronze or copper items), purchase good equipment from traders, or otherwise are gifted better equipment by friends won't need to grind an arbitrary number of levels in a skill just to be able to use those items.

As for constructing specific buildings for certain tasks, this is already a soft requirement. To refine steel, the player will need to build refractories. To store food, the player will need to build a cellar. Forging items doesn't require a specific building, exactly, but a helve hammer will need machinery to power it, which means the player will need to set up their forge area near the machinery.

20 minutes ago, MushuBG said:

In my opinion, there is not enough incentive to use certain technologies, such as copper or bronze (which I personally only use for about an hour of gameplay, or even less—just to mine tin to make bronze, and then to mine iron). I think this reduces the game’s longevity and doesn’t encourage players to adapt to their equipment or their environment.

While I somewhat agree here, I think the better option is to just give the player more things to do earlier in the game. There's only so many things a player can do at once, and more things to do means they'll have to choose to focus on certain things over others, rather than just be able to easily complete everything the early game has to offer in a few days and jump to iron. This is changing somewhat in 1.22; with the berry bush rework and farming tweaks, the player will want to set up farms earlier and start bush cuttings if they want an established berry patch for the next year. Likewise, iron takes a bit more effort to work given the changes implemented with bellows. In any case, giving the players more things to do earlier in the game lets them decide for themselves how fast they really want to progress, and have fun with the process, rather than feel like everything is being locked behind arbitrary time gates to give it meaning.

I also want to note that the early tech levels are important for the early game, but not tech levels the player is meant to remain at long-term. Not everything available at those levels necessarily needs to be viable either; for example, the player can make copper plate armor, but it's not particularly viable to do so since the resource/labor cost is quite high compared to the durability and protection offered by the armor. Bronze lamellar armor is solid equipment for general adventuring, but it's not going to hold up against stronger monsters, so the player will need to invest in iron equipment before braving the harsher storms or venturing into the deep caves.

32 minutes ago, MushuBG said:

This could also give more purpose to books and paper, which could be required or used in a research table or something similar, where players could conduct research using certain materials to unlock new technologies or progress to a new age.

I think this idea really only works for things like special pieces of Jonas tech, where the player really shouldn't have access to the stuff without completing parts of the story in order to avoid trivializing certain things.

 

1 minute ago, PoisonedPawn777 said:

Now, I've never played multiplayer, I can imagine that makes progression quite a bit faster and easier, but the focus of balance in the game should always be centered around the single player experience.

I just play multiplayer with my friend, but I can say that multiplayer does speed up certain aspects of progress, while slowing down others. Generally, the early game goes faster, since one of us can be out scouting/hunting/foraging while the other sets up base and farms. By the time the mid-late game rolls around though, things slow down a bit, since there are two players requiring iron/steel gear rather than just one, and the forges and refineries only work so fast.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

36 minutes ago, MushuBG said:

In my opinion, there is not enough incentive to use certain technologies, such as copper or bronze

I generally classify these as stepping stones to Iron/Steel, so the general player is not encouraged to keep using them.

37 minutes ago, MushuBG said:

I also think the game is missing a technology tree, or something similar, that would require players to meet certain prerequisites: having a certain level in a specific skill (for example farming, mining, forging, or building), constructing specific buildings for forging, or simply crafting and using a certain number of bronze tools before being able to progress to the next age.

The problem I see with this is that the instant you are able to collect a resource, you are also able to use it. Take for example stone. The only way to collect stone is either by picking it up or mining it. If you pick it up, you can combine it with clay to make cobblestone. Clay is easily acquired with a flint shovel, for example so you are able to use stone the instant you gather it. Same goes for copper, bronze, iron, etc, for the most part (though there is a prerequisite for using mined copper: having a hammer to crush the ore bits).

The reason this is a problem is there is no way to gate the player by requiring them to have certain buildings for forging because the instant the player spawn into the game with nothing but a couple pieces of flint, a rock and two sticks they are instantly able to start constructing sturdy buildings.

The requirement of crafting and using a certain number of bronze tools also presents a problem in that bronze is, again, a stepping stone on the path to iron and steel. You aren't supposed to use it any longer than you need to. For the new player, this makes sense, but for the seasoned veteran, this is only a nuisance for their desired playstyle to be dampened by a meaningless requirement to make and use a tool for which they have no desire.

 

I agree that there could be some sort of checklist for newer players to follow to make sure they are prepared for advancing to the next ages, but those advancements only really come when the players already have what they need. If they are missing a requirement, for say... Iron, then they won't be able to advance until that requirement is met, be it a supply of coal-like fuel, or the fire clay needed to make bloomeries. And even so without a bronze anvil and other tools, that iron will be pretty much useless until those requirements are also met.

8 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

By the time the mid-late game rolls around though, things slow down a bit, since there are two players requiring iron/steel gear rather than just one, and the forges and refineries only work so fast.

Just build double the forges and refineries #fivehead

[Emeal]

I would very much like to see a secondary progression system, but a technology tree isn't really what I want. Rather Skills.

If I could ask Anego Team for one thing it would be to consider the XSkills/XLib Mod progression of every time you do anything, you gain experience in a field of work.
And when you level up a skill you can unlock something to sweeten your time, and Idd then ask Anego Team for a much more down to earth selection of perks and shortcuts.

The whole idea of doing something a lot so that when you do it in the future it becomes easier is very appealing and Im sure Anego could make some much more modest increases for us to pick.

Just for god's sake don't do the, can only pick 2 masteries that XSkills has going, its awful.