Solution to the Tooltip Spam

[Birdcage]

TLDR: My main proposal is for LMB (left-click) to be associated with retrieval, and RMB (right-click) to be associated with placement when involving items (ground storage, liquids, harvesting crops). In short, this follows a consistent, already established pattern, and significantly reduces the need for modifier keys.

Preamble:
I have looked around for similar suggestions but haven't found any at this scale, so please forgive me if this has been addressed elsewhere.

The first thing I noticed when picking up VS was the strange interface patterns in the game (or lack thereof). Importantly, I see new players that I recruit get tripped up by the UX and nearly abandon the game because of it. I nearly did in the beginning as well. In general, confusing UX is often due to an incorrect or incomplete mental model, which in turn can be caused by a lack of consistency and unbalanced frequency-of-use. I'll clarify each below before getting to specific examples.

Consistency:
There are two types of consistency, external and internal:

• External consistency refers to how a platform uses well-established standards that a new user will immediately intuit. That's why CTRL+C and CTRL+V is the same in every software. As far as I'm concerned, VS does this just fine. Anyone who has played other voxel survival games will know how to move, jump, mine, place, attack, etc.
• Internal consistency refers to how the a platform establishes and re-uses similar patterns within its own constructions, building the user's muscle memory across similar actions. Take this forum, for example. To make text bold, you use CTRL+B, and to make text italic, you use CTRL+I. This clearly establishes a pattern for changing font style that the user can generalize. If the user wanted to underline, they could reasonably guess at CTRL+U and be correct. On the other hand, it would be considered a violation of internal consistency if bold used CTRL+B and italics used SHIFT+I. Even if you memorized this eventually, this idiosyncrasy would be a significant obstacle for new or returning users due to the lack of a recognizable pattern, and guessing the keybinds for underline is a shot in the dark.

You likely already see where I'm going with this, but I believe that VS struggles with internal consistency, and is a huge unintentional obstacle for new players to overcome. It is also the reason that tooltips are absolutely everywhere because there's no consistent pattern to be learned.

Frequency of Use:
Another core principle that guides UI/UX design is how often certain actions are performed relative to accessibility: Common actions are more accessible, rare actions are less accessible. When applied to keybinds, this means that the primary mouse buttons (LMB, RMB) should perform the most common action, and adding the less accessible modifier keys (SHIFT, CTRL) should perform the less common action, thus keeping modifier key use to a minimum. Further still, combined modifier keys should only be used for very rare actions, if at all. There are several instances in VS where modifier keys are used unnecessarily, either because the primary action is actually less common or entirely nonexistent.

Examples:

Here I've compiled some of the places I see violations of internal consistency or frequency-of-use, and afterward I will demonstrate a potential solution.

Harvesting

• Harvesting animals is Knife+SHIFT+RMB
• Harvesting plants or animal bones is LMB (mine)
• Harvesting plants to keep the roots is Knife+LMB
• Harvesting berries and fruit is RMB
• Getting a cutting from a fruit tree is LMB (mine)
• Getting a cutting from a berry bush is Knife+SHIFT+RMB

This is quite inconsistent, but also uses unnecessary SHIFT keys because the act of mining with a knife isn't even possible in those cases. All instances of harvesting could be reasonably standardized so you don't have to guess for every situation. It doesn't entirely matter how you take a cutting (it's an uncommon action), but it should be the same for all plants that allow it.

Torches
Torches are inconsistent in several respects:

• Sometimes, igniting with a torch is HOLD RMB (firepit, torch, bomb), and sometimes it's HOLD SHIFT+RMB (forge, pit kiln, coal block). This is made much worse by the fact that performing the incorrect action still results in your arm moving, even though it doesn't do anything. This means that a player attempting to incorrectly light something thinks "I'm clearly doing it right, why isn't it working" instead of "Oh, I must be doing something wrong". This is a misuse of feedback, which is supposed to indicate when an action is being performed correctly. Regardless, igniting with a torch should be the same in all cases.
• You can ignite an unlit torch in your hand from a lit torch on the ground, but not from a lit torch in a holder.
• LMB (mine) to pick up from ground, RMB to pick up from holder
• You light a fire with a torch in hand with HOLD RMB, but light a torch in hand from the fire with HOLD SHIFT+RMB, which is also way you add fuel to the fire. There is no reason that igniting the torch/fire are different actions.
   

Meals and Liquids

Take liquid from the ground:       RMB
Place liquid on the ground:         CTRL+RMB

Take all liquid from a container:  RMB
Place all liquid in a container:     RMB

Take 1L from a container:           SHIFT+RMB
Place 1L into a container:           CTRL+RMB

Take liquid from pot in firepit inventory:         RMB
Place liquid into pot in firepit inventory:         LMB

Take food from crock on the ground:       RMB
Place food in crock on the ground:          Not possible

Take food from crock in inventory:         LMB
Place food in crock in inventory:             Not possible

Note again how internal consistency is broken here. Sometimes the difference between taking and placing is the addition of a modifier key (taking/placing liquid on the ground). Sometimes it's which modifier key (taking/placing 1L). Sometimes it's a different mouse button (taking/placing in inventory). Sometimes the mouse button is flipped entirely for the same action (taking liquid in inventory v.s. taking food in inventory).

Ground Storage (GS)
Here's where things get hairy. Placing items in ground storage is categorically similar to placing regular blocks, but with a completely shuffled set of actions:

Take from GS:             RMB
Place in GS:                SHIFT+RMB

Take tool from GS:      RMB
Place tool in GS:         CTRL+SHIFT+RMB

Take from shelf:          RMB
Place on shelf:            RMB

Take from pile:            RMB
Place in pile:               SHIFT+RMB

Take from pile (many): CTRL+RMB
Place in pile (many):    CTRL+SHIFT+RMB

• As seen above, there is little consistency when it comes to placing items (can be RMB, SHIFT+RMB, or CTRL+SHIFT+RMB).
• This is made worse by the fact that the mess of modifier keys is entirely unnecessary. For the majority of common cases, using RMB on a ground-placeable item does not have another purpose* (edge cases addressed in the next section). Placing many items in a pile and leaning tools against a wall are also very common actions, so the fact that they use two modifier keys is especially awful.
• Additionally, for quarter-GS items the placement keybind actually changes if there are already occupied slots, but this does not happen anywhere else.
• Whether you require an empty hand to pick up items is also wildly inconsistent: Shelves do, tool racks don't. You can pick up an item from GS with another identical item in hand... unless it was placed in center GS, in which case you need an empty hand. More than that, sometimes you can only pick up an item from GS if you have a certain type of item in hand. For example, you can pick up bowls from GS (quarter only) while holding a crucible, but not when holding a mold or tool. But rocks in a pile can be picked up when holding a bowl or tool (many only), but not a mold. Pies slices can be picked up when holding a bowl, but bowls can't be picked up when holding a pie slice.
• But even after all that, torches use RMB to place and LMB to take, while oil lamps and lanterns use RMB to both place and take. That is unless the torch is in a torch holder, then it changes to RMB. But then you need an empty hand for lamps/lanterns, but not for torches in holders. And even then, SHIFT+RMB works to place a lantern, but not an oil lamp.

I wanted to make a table here showing all the possible variations of requirements for placement, but I legitimately couldn't because there were too many exceptions with no discernible pattern.

Regardless of all the above inconsistencies, using RMB for picking up items means that LMB is left entirely unused, which is why every other GS-related action must be relegated to RMB with modifier keys as seen above. Technically you can mine items in GS, but this is a very uncommon action and should not be prioritized when the entire purpose of GS is for convenient storage.

Solution:

This is where I introduce my proposed solution to this entire mess: Use LMB for actions related to retrieval.

Simply put, taking items from GS, shelves, tool racks, piles, etc. could just be a simple left-click. Currently, left-click has no other purpose because mining a placed item in GS is done by holding LMB. If you are unsure about how the game would differentiate between clicking and holding, it can be the same as how the game differentiates between attacking with a knife (LMB) and harvesting grass (HOLD LMB). Alternatively, taking the item could simply occur when the button is released, meaning that the action isn't dependent on a time window. If you still don't like that, you could easily designate SHIFT+LMB to be "force-mining", which is already a precedent set by "force-placing" blocks on top of interactibles with SHIFT+RMB.

Importantly this proposed change leaves RMB available for placement in nearly every case. This beautifully follows the pattern of LMB for "taking" and RMB for "placing" established from regular blocks, chiseling, and clay/smithing. Let's look at the relevant keybinds again with this change (underline indicates where there was a change):

Take from GS:             LMB
Place in GS:                RMB

Take tool from GS:      LMB
Place tool in GS:         RMB

Take from shelf:          LMB
Place on shelf:            RMB

Take from pile:            LMB
Place in pile:               RMB

Take from pile (many): SHIFT+LMB
Place in pile (many):    SHIFT+RMB

This is so much more consistent across the board and completely eliminates CTRL and all double modifiers. I won't take a stance on whether you should be able to pick up everything with full hands, but whichever is chosen should be consistent. Either you need an empty hand to pick things up or you don't.

*There are some minor edge cases where RMB has a conflict, so let's address those:

• Eating food or using a ranged weapon is not just RMB, it's HOLD RMB. This is easy to fix: place the item down only when RMB is immediately released within a short window. This ensures you can never accidentally place a food item you are trying to eat (which, for the record, is already a current problem for users who bind SHIFT to sprint).
• Boots specifically are GS-placeable and equip with RMB. Again following the frequency of use principle, this edge case should not compromise the more common cases. With my suggested changes, equipping wearables (as a less common action), could then be SHIFT+RMB or CTRL+RMB, doesn't really matter.

This solution also fixes the food and liquid issues:

Take liquid from the ground:       LMB
Place liquid on the ground:         SHIFT+RMB (placing the bowl or bucket in GS is RMB)

Take all liquid from a container:  LMB
Place all liquid in a container:     RMB

Take 1L from a container:           SHIFT+LMB
Place 1L into a container:           SHIFT+RMB

Take liquid from pot in firepit inventory:         LMB
Place liquid into pot in firepit inventory:         RMB

Take food from crock on the ground:       LMB
Place food in crock on the ground:          Not possible

Take food from crock in inventory:         LMB
Place food in crock in inventory:             Not possible

At first I was skeptical of LMB to fill a bucket from a water block, but honestly? I'm on board with it now. LMB is effectively unused when carrying a bucket; there's no reason that "mining with a bucket" gets such a primary action.

As for harvesting, here's what that might look like:

Harvesting animals:  Knife+LMB
Harvesting animal bones:  LMB (mine)
Harvesting plants:  LMB (mine)
Harvesting plants to keep the roots:  Knife+LMB
Harvesting berries and fruit:  LMB
Cutting from a fruit tree:  Knife+LMB
Cutting from a berry bush:  Knife+LMB

This keeps everything consistent and removes modifier keys. The pattern is clear: LMB is used for mining (which can harvest in some cases), and Knife+LMB is used for more "specific" harvesting actions.

Potential issues:

I obviously don't expect to have thought of everything, but I'll try to address potential problems here, and I am adding more as they are brought up along with potential solutions. Please let me know if you think of others, I would really like to workshop this because I strongly believe this aspect of UX to be important for player uptake and retention.

"Won't this be disruptive to current players?"
Not necessarily. An easy solution is to offer the current controls as a legacy option for veterans who have built the muscle memory. Regardless, untangling a mess like this only gets harder as more players join. A change like this is inevitable, so it will be important to do it as early as possible to mitigate disruption.

"But we don't want to be accidentally placing things in GS all the time"
I agree, but we won't be. As suggested above, the biggest problems like food and weapons use HOLD+RMB, which is easily differentiable from a single right-click.

"I don't want to accidentally take things out of storage when fighting enemies inside"
Brought up by @LadyWYT. The solution to this I think is just to disallow taking items from storage when you are wielding a weapon. In fact, this is already the case in many places where you must have an empty hand to take things.

"I don't want to accidentally hit my animals when trying to interact (e.g. take equipment, remove rope, milking)"
Brought up by @jerjerje. Importantly, interaction with animals wouldn't be part of this change, so it would remain RMB. This sacrifices some consistency, but given that the context is very different (animals, not blocks/items), I think that is totally reasonable.

"Harvesting berries and fruit trees would conflict with mining them (HOLD LMB)"
Edge case brought up by @coolAlias. This has a couple solutions that could apply to all fruits:

1. HOLD LMB harvests only when you have an empty hand or the same berry/fruit in hand, and mines otherwise. Also with a modifier key to "force-mine" in all cases.
2. Harvesting doesn't even need to be a held action. Instead, you could harvest berries and fruit with a single left-click, or even multiple repeated left-clicks to balance time spent.

"This would break the idea that anything involving LMB is a destructive action"
Brought up by @williams_482. It is true that current LMB actions are all destructive (mining and attacking), and that this is a pattern established by other voxel games. However, I'd argue that we already make use of a different mechanism for denoting destructive actions, and that is whether it is held. For example, all ignition actions with a torch involve holding down RMB so you can't accidentally ignite something. Likewise, you destroy blocks only by holding down LMB. The only exception here is attacking, and that's only with melee weapons (ranged weapons use HOLD+RMB). I personally think it would be acceptable to use HOLD as a denotation of danger rather than LMB, especially when the benefit is making VS's unique storage system more accessible. Veteran players may take a bit to get used to this, but I suspect that using this pattern consistently will make it much easier in the long run, and it is very much worth removing the mess of modifier keys that we have currently.

"Having a time-window for clicking LMB vs holding LMB can feel inconsistent and is easy to use incorrectly"
Brought up by @LadyWYT. This is very true, though using a time window is just one of the possibilities. The alternatives suggested are:

1. The item is taken from storage when the button is released, regardless of any time window.
2. The item is taken instantly no matter what, and in order to mine something in GS you need to "force-mine" with SHIFT+LMB

Final Justification:

I know this was long, so thank you for making it this far. The current state of UX in the game appears to be a result of choosing keybinds independently for every unique situation, rather than through any consistent framework or intended mental model. This has resulted in inconsistent controls, misaligned frequency-of-use with accessibility, and tooltips everywhere because it's impossible to memorize everything. This is a problem that will only grow as features are added, and I believe there is a strong case that a global standardization is inevitable at some point in the future. With that in mind, I believe it would be best to get ahead of this before it becomes a pressing issue. The longer we wait, the harder it will be.

Edited Thursday at 10:40 PM by Birdcage
addressing potential issue

[coolAlias]

Excellent write-up. I hope the devs see this.

There is one other edge case I can see if we change harvesting berries to hold LMB, as that conflicts with breaking the block itself.

Given the new berry system, I'd be fine relegating breaking the block to require a modifier when not empty-handed. In other words, if I'm not holding anything or holding the same berry I'm harvesting, hold LMB will harvest; otherwise, hold LMB does the default break block action. It breaks the internal consistency somewhat, but I don't have a better solution at the moment.

[Birdcage]

10 minutes ago, coolAlias said:

Excellent write-up. I hope the devs see this.

There is one other edge case I can see if we change harvesting berries to hold LMB, as that conflicts with breaking the block itself.

Given the new berry system, I'd be fine relegating breaking the block to require a modifier when not empty-handed. In other words, if I'm not holding anything or holding the same berry I'm harvesting, hold LMB will harvest; otherwise, hold LMB does the default break block action. It breaks the internal consistency somewhat, but I don't have a better solution at the moment.

Thanks so much! I agree with all of this, I'd also prefer that harvesting be prioritized over breaking in these cases.

I'd even tentatively suggest that harvesting doesn't need to be a held action. I can easily imaging picking berries being a single left-click, or maybe multiple left-clicks for multiple berries. This also applies to picking fruit from trees now that I think about it, and could be a common pattern used for all fruits.

[coolAlias]

4 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

I'd even tentatively suggest that harvesting doesn't need to be a held action. I can easily imaging picking berries being a single left-click, or maybe multiple left-clicks for multiple berries. This also applies to picking fruit from trees now that I think about it, and could be a common pattern used for all fruits.

I like that. It could potentially apply to mushrooms, too, but I think the hold-to-harvest for mushrooms is intended as a balancing factor (i.e. time spent per calorie gained) so probably doesn't make as much sense to change.

[Birdcage]

11 minutes ago, coolAlias said:

I like that. It could potentially apply to mushrooms, too, but I think the hold-to-harvest for mushrooms is intended as a balancing factor (i.e. time spent per calorie gained) so probably doesn't make as much sense to change.

Ya you're right, any case where harvesting is equivalent to mining should remain as-is, and cases where harvesting is a different action can apply either solution. That feels internally consistent enough I think.

Edited Thursday at 05:25 PM by Birdcage

[jerjerje]

I never really thought about it like this, but I definitely agree. This would be such a good change. It would certainly take some time to get used to it, but I think this would be a lot better. As a neat side effect, this would also remove the chance of accidentally picking something up from ground storage, when trying to place blocks. I had that happen, quite a bit in my play through and it was always annoying. Occasionally I also had moments where I forgot what exact key combo needed, and I just had to try all of them until it worked. This system would be a lot easier to remember. I hope this gets added to vanilla at some point.

17 hours ago, Birdcage said:

I obviously don't expect to have thought of everything, but I'll try to address potential problems here. And please let me know if you think of others,

I can think of two small edge cases:

1. Equipping mounts: Adding equipments to mounts can just be done via right click. But for unequipping with left click, there would need to be some safety margin, so you don't accidentally punch your elk. Slightly missing the hitbox of the equipped item, should not cause you to hurt you mount. You won't usually want to punch your elk anyway, so this could likely be resolved relatively easily.

2. Using ropes on animals: The problem is essentially the same as with case 1. When removing the rope with left click, the "remove rope" operation should have priority over punching the animal. 

Neither of these cases are hard to resolve, but I wanted to have them mentioned, since they weren't mentioned in the post.

[coolAlias]

11 minutes ago, jerjerje said:

I can think of two small edge cases:

1. Equipping mounts: Adding equipments to mounts can just be done via right click. But for unequipping with left click, there would need to be some safety margin, so you don't accidentally punch your elk. Slightly missing the hitbox of the equipped item, should not cause you to hurt you mount. You won't usually want to punch your elk anyway, so this could likely be resolved relatively easily.

2. Using ropes on animals: The problem is essentially the same as with case 1. When removing the rope with left click, the "remove rope" operation should have priority over punching the animal. 

Neither of these cases are hard to resolve, but I wanted to have them mentioned, since they weren't mentioned in the post.

These are both good points, and leads me to consider using RMB as a general action key for non-block items to both place AND take - i.e. ground storage, shelves, mounts, etc. I feel like that's a fairly common control scheme in games with this type of interaction.

Of course, that wouldn't work for piles (e.g. stones), which brings us right back to the original issue, but I for one wouldn't mind too much if to place more into a pile after the first required a modifier key. So first RMB places a stone down, then RMB again would pick it up, but e.g. CTRL+RMB would place more. But then we're back to SHIFT+CTRL+RMB to place many.

I don't know the answer, but I will say that while I use piles frequently, I do not use them as much as I do placing and taking individual items from ground storage, so if one must use an awkward interaction, I'd prefer the awkward one to be piles.

[LadyWYT]

I don't disagree that controls could use some polish sooner or later, but I'm not sure the proposal here really solves the issue rather than just make a different mess of it. The reason I say that, is there are multiple different actions the player can perform in the game, and actions are pretty specific. It can also be pretty difficult to predict exactly what the player is trying to do in every scenario. A simpler control system might be easy to learn, but generally has trouble handling multiple different interactions easily.

17 hours ago, Birdcage said:

• HOLD LMB harvests only when you have an empty hand or the same berry/fruit in hand, and mines otherwise. Also with a modifier key to force-mine in all cases.
• Harvesting doesn't even need to be a held action. Instead, you could harvest berries and fruit with a single left-click, or even multiple repeated left-clicks to balance time spent.

1 hour ago, Birdcage said:

Thanks so much! I agree with all of this, I'd also prefer that harvesting be prioritized over breaking in these cases.

I'd even tentatively suggest that harvesting doesn't need to be a held action. I can easily imaging picking berries being a single left-click, or maybe multiple left-clicks for multiple berries. This also applies to picking fruit from trees now that I think about it, and could be a common pattern used for all fruits.

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but needing to click multiple times to harvest a single block probably isn't going to be a very popular decision. It's rather clunky and tedious, and if I understand correctly, repetitive actions like that can cause physical issues for some players.

I would also note that if the block is broken, it tends to drop the harvestable item, so if the player is breaking a harvestable plant they're probably intending to both break the block and harvest the items as well, so requiring two different actions instead of just one probably won't feel too good. Additionally, it's also nice to be able to harvest bushes while holding a tool/weapon in one's hand, especially if there's otherwise no free inventory available. 

17 hours ago, Birdcage said:

Harvesting plants or animal bones is Knife+LMB

This isn't correct--a knife is not needed to harvest animal bones, and isn't needed to harvest certain plants. Cattails, tule, papyrus, and sedge require a knife to leave the roots intact. Grass will require a knife as well to get anything useful from it. A knife is required to take berry bush cuttings, but is not needed to harvest the bushes themselves.

 

17 hours ago, Birdcage said:

With my suggested changes, equipping wearables (as a less common action), could then be SHIFT+RMB or CTRL+RMB, doesn't really matter.

Honestly, I hate this combination. It's the control system that the mannequins currently use, and very clunky for frequently used items like armor. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding again, but if I'm holding the item already, I just want to right-click to equip. 

 

17 hours ago, Birdcage said:

Take from GS:             LMB
Place in GS:                RMB

Take tool from GS:      LMB
Place tool in GS:         RMB

Take from shelf:          LMB
Place on shelf:            RMB

Take from pile:            LMB
Place in pile:               RMB

Take from pile (many): SHIFT+LMB
Place in pile (many):    SHIFT+RMB

This seems like it could cause issues with items getting put/taken from storage by accident. If I'm fighting unwanted intruders or otherwise trying to work on my base, I don't want the game assuming that I'm trying to put a tool/weapon away just because I looked at a wall/storage unit funny.

Overall, controls are something that are pretty specific to individual taste, I think, and what makes sense to one player might not make sense to another. I wouldn't mind seeing some polish, and definitely appreciate the detailed write-up, but something here just isn't hitting the right notes for me.

[williams_482]

I like the writeup, but I'm not sure I agree.

Right now, the game is set up such that LMB is what you use for any and all inherently destructive actions: attacking and breaking blocks. Players may forget exactly which modifier keys are necessary for any given action, but they know that variations on RMB are "safe" while LMB is "dangerous". That's a valuable safety buffer which goes away if the dominant model guiding click interactions becomes the more theoretically consistent "LMB to take, RMB to place". Users in this thread have already mentioned berry bushes and elk as situations where misclicks with LMB can be very bothersome, and inevitably there are others (milking a sheep, for example). I don't think that's an acceptable tradeoff.

Currently the game's interactions are occasionally confusing and inefficient, but messing up irrevocably is relatively difficult as long as LMB and RMB are being read correctly (Mac trackpad users beware). A system where users have a better intuitive understanding of what should happen, but their occasional errors are much more damaging, is a clear downgrade. 

[coolAlias]

9 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

[LMB to take from GS, RMB to place in GS]

This seems like it could cause issues with items getting put/taken from storage by accident. If I'm fighting unwanted intruders or otherwise trying to work on my base, I don't want the game assuming that I'm trying to put a tool/weapon away just because I looked at a wall/storage unit funny.

This is a great point and is probably why it is so common in these types of games to use RMB for both take and place, leaving LMB explicitly for attack and destroy.

[Birdcage]

4 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

... there are multiple different actions the player can perform in the game, and actions are pretty specific. It can also be pretty difficult to predict exactly what the player is trying to do in every scenario ...

I don't believe there is any prediction necessary. All that's needed would be to differentiate between a single click and a hold, which is already implemented (attacking with a knife vs. harvesting with a knife).

12 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Perhaps I'm misunderstanding, but needing to click multiple times to harvest a single block probably isn't going to be a very popular decision. It's rather clunky and tedious

You are likely right, this case in particular may need some additional thought. Multiple clicks was an offhand attempt to correct for potential balancing of the time spent, which I'm not even certain is a consideration.

14 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I would also note that if the block is broken, it tends to drop the harvestable item, so if the player is breaking a harvestable plant they're probably intending to both break the block and harvest the items as well, so requiring two different actions instead of just one probably won't feel too good. Additionally, it's also nice to be able to harvest bushes while holding a tool/weapon in one's hand, especially if there's otherwise no free inventory available.

To clarify, this potential solution is that HOLD+LMB harvests only when you have an empty hand or the same berry/fruit in hand, and still mines otherwise (i.e. with a tool/weapon). And the block would still drop harvests when broken, nothing about drops has to change at all.

18 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

This isn't correct--a knife is not needed to harvest animal bones, and isn't needed to harvest certain plants.

You're right, thanks for this correction, I'll update the post. I suppose I'm used to harvesting an animal and then immediately mining the bones.

20 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Honestly, I hate this combination. It's the control system that the mannequins currently use, and very clunky for frequently used items like armor. Perhaps I'm misunderstanding again, but if I'm holding the item already, I just want to right-click to equip.

Good to know! Boots do indeed pose an issue that needs to be addressed because they are also uniquely able to be placed in ground storage. However, I argue that this edge case should not be an obstacle to the overall change. I would like to workshop a potential solution to mannequins, as that is also something I hadn't considered.

25 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

This seems like it could cause issues with items getting put/taken from storage by accident. If I'm fighting unwanted intruders or otherwise trying to work on my base, I don't want the game assuming that I'm trying to put a tool/weapon away just because I looked at a wall/storage unit funny.

Good point - fighting enemies inside your base could result in accidental left-clicks on items in storage. However I think this is easily solved by simply not allowing you to take items with a weapon in hand. In fact, this is already the case in many places where you must have an empty hand to take things.

Accidentally putting things in storage is less of an issue I believe, since weapons and food are used by holding right-click, and that is easily differentiable as discussed at the top.

32 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

what makes sense to one player might not make sense to another. I wouldn't mind seeing some polish, and definitely appreciate the detailed write-up, but something here just isn't hitting the right notes for me.

Your feedback is very much appreciated! I definitely think this would need to be thoroughly tested to work out all the kinks. I still strongly believe that standardizing actions across mechanics is a very important change, but you are right to point out the holes.

[Birdcage]

1 hour ago, jerjerje said:

Occasionally I also had moments where I forgot what exact key combo needed, and I just had to try all of them until it worked. This system would be a lot easier to remember. I hope this gets added to vanilla at some point.

This is precisely the issue, even for veteran players. When there is no internal consistency, you can't even guess at the right answer, you just have to try everything. Internally consistent actions are not only easier to remember, but also give you reasonable guesses when you don't know something.

 

1 hour ago, jerjerje said:

1. Equipping mounts: Adding equipments to mounts can just be done via right click. But for unequipping with left click, there would need to be some safety margin, so you don't accidentally punch your elk. Slightly missing the hitbox of the equipped item, should not cause you to hurt you mount. You won't usually want to punch your elk anyway, so this could likely be resolved relatively easily.

2. Using ropes on animals: The problem is essentially the same as with case 1. When removing the rope with left click, the "remove rope" operation should have priority over punching the animal. 

Neither of these cases are hard to resolve, but I wanted to have them mentioned, since they weren't mentioned in the post.

Fantastic cases, I'll add these to the post! We definitely don't want to be left-clicking animals for these actions. I think I agree with coolAlias, we can easily just have animals use RMB for both "take" and "place" (equipment, ropes, etc). This does break from the larger pattern, but having all animal interactions behave this way is still internally consistent to a degree.

Alternatively, it could also be that you simply can't attack your animals without a weapon, which I wouldn't want to do anyway.

 

[Birdcage]

42 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

Right now, the game is set up such that LMB is what you use for any and all inherently destructive actions: attacking and breaking blocks. Players may forget exactly which modifier keys are necessary for any given action, but they know that variations on RMB are "safe" while LMB is "dangerous". That's a valuable safety buffer which goes away if the dominant model guiding click interactions becomes the more theoretically consistent "LMB to take, RMB to place". Users in this thread have already mentioned berry bushes and elk as situations where misclicks with LMB can be very bothersome, and inevitably there are others (milking a sheep, for example). I don't think that's an acceptable tradeoff.

Currently the game's interactions are occasionally confusing and inefficient, but messing up irrevocably is relatively difficult as long as LMB and RMB are being read correctly (Mac trackpad users beware). A system where users have a better intuitive understanding of what should happen, but their occasional errors are much more damaging, is a clear downgrade. 

Fantastic point here. I'll say this though, we can make use of a different mechanism for denoting "dangerous" actions, and that is whether it is held. For example, all ignition actions with a torch involve holding it down so you can't accidentally ignite something. Likewise, you destroy blocks only by holding down LMB. Holding requires knowing intent in all cases, which is perfect as a barrier.

The only instance of a single LMB click being destructive is attacking, and that is only in the context of creatures. I've responded to this as well, and I think it is totally reasonable to either (1) simply not change these cases and keep interactions using RMB (sacrificing consistency) or (2) conditionally restrict attacking animals without a weapon.

[williams_482]

13 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

Fantastic point here. I'll say this though, we can make use of a different mechanism for denoting "dangerous" actions, and that is whether it is held. For example, all ignition actions with a torch involve holding it down so you can't accidentally ignite something. Likewise, you destroy blocks only by holding down LMB. Holding requires knowing intent in all cases, which is perfect as a barrier.

The trouble here is that the line between "click" and "hold" gets very fuzzy. If someone has a habit of holding the mouse button down just a little too long when clicking on stuff, how many very nasty mistakes can they make before they figure out what the problem is?

16 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

The only instance of a single LMB click being destructive is attacking, and that is only in the context of creatures. I've responded to this as well, and I think it is totally reasonable to either (1) simply not change these cases and keep interactions using RMB (sacrificing consistency) or (2) conditionally restrict attacking animals without a weapon.

What if I want to hit something with a bare hand or a random object? Maybe my Elk is in an annoying spot and I'm a jerk so I just punch it to chase it off temporarily? I don't want to kill it, and I don't want to bother selecting the weakest possible weapon, I just want to whack it with my food bowl or a block of dirt that I already had in my hand. 

That's a bit of a silly example but I'm sure there are others, and it illustrates that this fundamentally is an exercise in predicting what players want to do based on various contextual clues. Those predictions will never be completely right, so you have to prioritize erring in the direction of giving the player a safe platform to experiment and learn. Every context specific change that is added is another exception the player has to remember, which as you say sacrifices the very consistency you are trying to get out of this new system. 

If users are accustomed to LMB for take in all other contexts, what's the first thing they're going to try when opening an elk's saddlebag? Better hope that first interaction doesn't happen next to a large cliff face or sinkhole. 

[LadyWYT]

36 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

I don't believe there is any prediction necessary. All that's needed would be to differentiate between a single click and a hold, which is already implemented (attacking with a knife vs. harvesting with a knife).

Except in this case, hardware differences may make an impact, and I could see it being a little tricky to figure out how long the button has to be held in order to qualify as a "hold". Long windows can end up feeling clunky or sluggish, while short windows can wind up feeling too trigger-happy. The current balance feels fine to me, since most controls feel very responsive when I use them.

 

41 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

To clarify, this potential solution is that HOLD+LMB harvests only when you have an empty hand or the same berry/fruit in hand, and still mines otherwise (i.e. with a tool/weapon). And the block would still drop harvests when broken, nothing about drops has to change at all.

Even so, I still like to harvest while I'm holding a weapon, as that leaves me able to respond to threats quickly. I don't really like shuffling inventory around to make sure I have an empty hotbar slot to do something, and I also don't want to be prevented from breaking things like bushes just because I happen to be holding berries or nothing at all. I think this case also goes with what @williams_482 noted about left-clicking being associated with dangerous/destructive actions; if I'm left-clicking on something, I'm generally intending to destroy or otherwise alter it in a very proactive fashion. Right-clicking tends to be more intuitive for using/interacting with blocks and items in a more subdued fashion.

 

46 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

Good to know! Boots do indeed pose an issue that needs to be addressed because they are also uniquely able to be placed in ground storage. However, I argue that this edge case should not be an obstacle to the overall change. I would like to workshop a potential solution to mannequins, as that is also something I hadn't considered.

47 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

Good point - fighting enemies inside your base could result in accidental left-clicks on items in storage. However I think this is easily solved by simply not allowing you to take items with a weapon in hand. In fact, this is already the case in many places where you must have an empty hand to take things.

Accidentally putting things in storage is less of an issue I believe, since weapons and food are used by holding right-click, and that is easily differentiable as discussed at the top.

I think one of the main overall sticking points for me here is that by trying to consolidate/simplify controls, it solves one set of inconsistencies/problems while introducing other sets. Yes, excluding weapons from being placed automatically on tool racks would stop the player from accidentally losing their weapon mid-fight thanks to a misclick, but then you've got weapons behaving inconsistently with tools when it comes to how they're placed. It's a similar issue with trying to switch right-click and left-click actions around; left-clicking is usually reserved for breaking blocks/attacking things while right-click tends to be reserved for safer interactions. I think it's also important to note that just because the controls are internally consistent for a game doesn't mean that players won't find them confusing; if the controls are inconsistent with other titles in the same genre, players can easily get confused.

 

26 minutes ago, Birdcage said:

(2) conditionally restrict attacking animals without a weapon.

Just a note here, but I don't think this is behavior that should be restricted. Sometimes you want/need to give an animal a slap on the rear to get them moving in an intended direction, without actually hurting them. If the player is barred from attacking animals without having some sort of weapon though, this action becomes a lot harder to achieve.

 

4 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

If users are accustomed to LMB for take in all other contexts, what's the first thing they're going to try when opening an elk's saddlebag? Better hope that first interaction doesn't happen next to a large cliff face or sinkhole. 

Probably a prime example of where if left-clicking works to break blocks and attack things in other games, and right-click is used for more passive actions like setting items down, using blocks, or harvesting stuff, players are gonna get really confused when left-click suddenly becomes the harvest button and right-click can place stuff but not retrieve it, etc.

[coolAlias]

Regardless of how the devs decide to tackle these issues in the end, I'd very much like them to review this entire thread (original suggestion and all the various feedback) and see if they can't come up with a bit more consistency and a bit less reliance on modifier keys for the game's controls.

[Birdcage]

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

The trouble here is that the line between "click" and "hold" gets very fuzzy. If someone has a habit of holding the mouse button down just a little too long when clicking on stuff, how many very nasty mistakes can they make before they figure out what the problem is?

I wasn't thinking about a time-based window at all, I'll adjust the post to be more clear about that. Rather you only pick an item up when the mouse button is released. If you don't like that, the option of instead using SHIFT+LMB to "force-mine" remains, as the action of mining ground-storage is very uncommon and thus can reasonably be given a modifier key. I could even see both of these being config options depending on preference.

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

What if I want to hit something with a bare hand or a random object? Maybe my Elk is in an annoying spot and I'm a jerk so I just punch it to chase it off temporarily? I don't want to kill it, and I don't want to bother selecting the weakest possible weapon, I just want to whack it with my food bowl or a block of dirt that I already had in my hand.

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

Every context specific change that is added is another exception the player has to remember, which as you say sacrifices the very consistency you are trying to get out of this new system.

You're right, we shouldn't apply this change to animals at all. This is not a big violation of internal consistency since interaction with animals is actually a different context than items and blocks. I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect players to recognize that. I still consider this to be better than what we have now, which is nearly no consistency at all because everything is a different context. Collapsing the game down to fewer contexts with their own internally consistent controls is still better.

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

... it illustrates that this fundamentally is an exercise in predicting what players want to do based on various contextual clues. Those predictions will never be completely right, so you have to prioritize erring in the direction of giving the player a safe platform to experiment and learn.

I fully agree that predicting player intent is a bad idea, but there is no predicting going on here, especially if you consider the "force-mine" option for these edge cases. It's just about making the most common use case more accessible, not predicting what they are trying to do.

1 hour ago, williams_482 said:

If users are accustomed to LMB for take in all other contexts, what's the first thing they're going to try when opening an elk's saddlebag? Better hope that first interaction doesn't happen next to a large cliff face or sinkhole. 

I actually disagree with this. There's no pattern that indicates "open" is LMB. Opening a chest is still RMB, and interacting with blocks like querns and anvils is still RMB. And also considering the context of animals as discussed above, I don't think it's reasonable to think a player would use LMB. I do still see your point though, which is that having the possibility for LMB to be used non-destructively is more risky, and I do acknowledge that.

Edited Thursday at 10:10 PM by Birdcage
wording

[Birdcage]

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

Except in this case, hardware differences may make an impact, and I could see it being a little tricky to figure out how long the button has to be held in order to qualify as a "hold". Long windows can end up feeling clunky or sluggish, while short windows can wind up feeling too trigger-happy. The current balance feels fine to me, since most controls feel very responsive when I use them.

Actually my thought wasn't a time-based window, but rather that you only pick an item up when the mouse button is released. That way hardware has no impact and no need for a time window. Regardless, the option of instead using SHIFT+LMB to "force-mine" ground-storage remains, as this action is very uncommon.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

Even so, I still like to harvest while I'm holding a weapon, as that leaves me able to respond to threats quickly. I don't really like shuffling inventory around to make sure I have an empty hotbar slot to do something, and I also don't want to be prevented from breaking things like bushes just because I happen to be holding berries or nothing at all.

Very valid. I think the only solution to this is the force-mine option above, as mining a bush is a much less common action, especially with the recent update.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

I think this case also goes with what @williams_482 noted about left-clicking being associated with dangerous/destructive actions; if I'm left-clicking on something, I'm generally intending to destroy or otherwise alter it in a very proactive fashion. Right-clicking tends to be more intuitive for using/interacting with blocks and items in a more subdued fashion.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

... left-clicking is usually reserved for breaking blocks/attacking things while right-click tends to be reserved for safer interactions. I think it's also important to note that just because the controls are internally consistent for a game doesn't mean that players won't find them confusing; if the controls are inconsistent with other titles in the same genre, players can easily get confused.

Agreed that this would be a shift in perspective, can't deny that. The established pattern of "LMB = destruction" is indeed externally consistent with other games, and I acknowledge that this is a slight diversion. I will note that VS doesn't follow this religiously, as there are a few RMB actions that are destructive (ranged weapons, igniting with torches, dumping out liquid from a bucket).

Still, the primary actions of mining, attacking, and interacting aren't actually changing, and a new player can still pick that up intuitively. Rather, it's VS unique system of storage that adds the idea that items can be placed on the ground and picked up. In that sense, VS gets to decide what pattern is used there. I also think it is clear that the unique storage mechanics of VS require full use of controls, and right now LMB is very heavily monopolized, which is what causes the excessive use of modifier keys. I believe it would be worth it to break from the "LMB = destruction" pattern established by other games to make room for VS's much wider variety of actions.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

Yes, excluding weapons from being placed automatically on tool racks would stop the player from accidentally losing their weapon mid-fight thanks to a misclick, but then you've got weapons behaving inconsistently with tools when it comes to how they're placed.

Nono, placing a weapon would be RMB, which doesn't need to be prevented in combat because you aren't using it. In VS currently you can totally place a weapon in a tool rack mid-conbat. My solution was just to prevent LMB from accidentally taking something while holding a weapon, that's all. There would be no difference at all between taking/place weapons and tools in any other context. The rule is this: "While holding a weapon in hand, LMB is an attack, and won't take anything from storage". That's it; If you aren't holding a weapon, nothing is different.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

Just a note here, but I don't think this is behavior that should be restricted. Sometimes you want/need to give an animal a slap on the rear to get them moving in an intended direction, without actually hurting them. If the player is barred from attacking animals without having some sort of weapon though, this action becomes a lot harder to achieve.

Fully agree. I'd prefer #1, which is just to not change animal interactions and keep it as RMB. I think the context of these actions being different than the rest (animals, not items/storage) works just fine. Having fewer contexts in the game is still better than what we have now, which is that everything is a different context.

On 4/23/2026 at 8:27 PM, LadyWYT said:

Probably a prime example of where if left-clicking works to break blocks and attack things in other games, and right-click is used for more passive actions like setting items down, using blocks, or harvesting stuff, players are gonna get really confused when left-click suddenly becomes the harvest button and right-click can place stuff but not retrieve it, etc.

I actually disagree with this. There's no pattern that indicates "open" is LMB. Opening a chest is still RMB, and interacting with blocks like querns and anvils is still RMB. Currently, LMB can indeed sometimes harvest stuff. Right click already places without retrieval in some cases (torches). You could fix this my shoving even more actions onto RMB, but as more features are added to the game I think that is a mistake and will only lead to more modifier key bloat. I still think the prudent thing to do is break from idea that LMB has only 2 uses as this keeps the most important button from doing much of anything for a huge proportion of play time.

Edited Saturday at 06:39 PM by Birdcage
wording

[Birdcage]

21 minutes ago, coolAlias said:

Regardless of how the devs decide to tackle these issues in the end, I'd very much like them to review this entire thread (original suggestion and all the various feedback) and see if they can't come up with a bit more consistency and a bit less reliance on modifier keys for the game's controls.

This is of course ultimately my goal. Whatever the solution is, it surely must be better than what we have now. I just didn't want to complain about inconsistency without a potential solution