A different take on climbing mechanics

[LadyWYT]

I've been mulling this over the past couple days and finally got something decently workable in my head. Most suggestions I've seen for climbing tend to fall into two categories: free climbing, or special climbing gear. I think there's perhaps a different method it could be implemented though, that reuses stuff we already have in the game.

1. Cracked rock should be climbable

As far as I know, cracked rock is mainly just cosmetic, or more at risk of cave-ins if one plays with that mechanic turned on. When it comes to climbing though, a rough rock surface offers more handholds, so allowing cracked rocks to be climbable would allow the player some interesting ways to interact with the natural world, as well as some interesting options for building ruins and story locations. Exploring and need to cross a chasm? Cracked rocks usually generate in bands, so if there's some nearby the player could carefully cling to the surface and inch their way along to the other side. In story locations, there could be damaged walls to scale to reach secrets, or from a world gen standpoint cracked rocks could generate sometimes in vertical patterns on cliffs/mountainsides to allow special climbing routes.

2. Hammer and chisel could have a mode to chisel out hand/toe-holds in appropriate surfaces

This could either be a decal applied to the surface, or a preset chisel pattern that gets applied, but either way the idea is these allow the player to climb around on those areas as if there were a ladder there. This would also be useful for making interesting challenges and secrets in ruins and story locations, as well as serve as an interesting way for players to add decorations or hidden pathways on their buildings.

[DeanF]

Wow.  I proposed that we be able to mantle up two blocks and you slapped me down, and now this? 

[LadyWYT]

57 minutes ago, DeanF said:

Wow.  I proposed that we be able to mantle up two blocks and you slapped me down, and now this? 

Climbing up very specific blocks is a bit different than being able to jump up just any block. Allowing the player to climb any two-three block heights breaks at least two major story locations, and reworking entire location designs is a lot of work. By limiting the player to climbing specific blocks like ladders, or in this case cracked rock/chiseled handholds, more minor edits can be made to those locations to allow the player limited climbing or block unintended player movements. 

[Teh Pizza Lady]

6 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

2. Hammer and chisel could have a mode to chisel out hand/toe-holds in appropriate surfaces

This could either be a decal applied to the surface, or a preset chisel pattern that gets applied, but either way the idea is these allow the player to climb around on those areas as if there were a ladder there. This would also be useful for making interesting challenges and secrets in ruins and story locations, as well as serve as an interesting way for players to add decorations or hidden pathways on their buildings.

I have to push back on this because realistically there is an inherent problem with using them to chisel handholds on a surface you're trying to climb. You need to already be on a stable surface before you can effectively use said tools. Realistically nobody is hanging off the side of a cliff, gripping the footholds with their toes while chiseling out more, at least not without some sort of climbing gear. That's a really good way to end up a pre-tenderized bear snack at the foot of the cliff.

Some sort of scaffolding would allow this, but honestly I only see it being useful for shorter runs without.

[LadyWYT]

1 minute ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

I have to push back on this because realistically there is an inherent problem with using them to chisel handholds on a surface you're trying to climb. You need to already be on a stable surface before you can effectively use said tools.

Realistically yes, however, the game doesn't really take the laws of physics into account too much when the player is chiseling. Or placing rope ladders, for that matter. A stable surface is definitely more ideal for fine chiselwork, but sometimes you have to pull off some "mountain-goating", so to speak, to get certain details in.

By and large I don't think this is really an issue. Trying to fix it would require changing how ladders work and probably make general chiseling and other actions more clunky than fun. I also don't really expect the player will want to carry a hammer and chisel with them everywhere they go, especially not when rope ladders can accomplish the same thing with less inventory space in addition to being reusable and useful for climbing down into holes. 

12 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

That's a really good way to end up a pre-tenderized bear snack at the foot of the cliff.

I think this is a fair risk for the player if they decide they want to scale a cliff, no matter how they choose to climb. Trying to place ladders, cling to cracked rock, or otherwise trying to chisel out a climbing path just happens to be a bit more risky than traditional parkour.

17 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

Some sort of scaffolding would allow this, but honestly I only see it being useful for shorter runs without.

Scaffolding I see being more useful for larger, more detailed build projects in general. Climbable like a ladder, but stable on top like a regular block, giving the player a nice little platform to work on. Dirt pillars are clunky and ladders are easy to use but can easily cause accidents since they're a little awkward to scoot around on when building.

[Rainbow Fresh]

But what if instead of chiseling the rock on the fly to have holds (cause any sort of chiseling will inevitably impact performance in the long run), you hammer the chisel into the rock as a stake. Doesn't need "special climbing gear" as you use your everyday hammer and chisel, and the ability to climb anything anywhere is offset by the need to smith tons of chisels to abuse them as stakes. Could also add the ability to retrieve the chisel (with less durability) later which with the now removed item pickup delay could make for some ballsy two chisel plays.

But the cracked rock approach sounds the most intuitively balanced option.

[Broccoli Clock]

I think climbing is fair, but imo it would need to match realism. Slow, difficult and dangerous. Unless you are meaning being able to scale 2 or 3 block high walls rather than mountains. For me the game is already designed so that verticality isn't all that possible without ladders. Take the Eidolon for example, if you could climb the walls that would make that whole 'boss battle' an entirely different experience. In fact the whole of the Archives would be changed drastically.

I played with x-skills (that is the name, yeah?) and it allows you to perk into climbing height and if I'm being honest, I didn't like it. It felt "off" and "exploity". That's just my opinion though. 

Then there is the issue of stamina, should a player be allowed to climb a mountain side (say 20+ blocks) without needing to stop? Does such an action take more sat? There is no default stamina in the game (which is a bit odd, but ok..) so I'm guessing you'd need to mod it in.

No mention of a grappling hook? I was just looking at the fishing mechanism and wondering if the way in which the line was created (nothing else like it in VS) it could be used for something else. A grappling hook could be one option.

Edited Tuesday at 09:37 AM by Broccoli Clock

[LadyWYT]

6 hours ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

But what if instead of chiseling the rock on the fly to have holds (cause any sort of chiseling will inevitably impact performance in the long run), you hammer the chisel into the rock as a stake. Doesn't need "special climbing gear" as you use your everyday hammer and chisel, and the ability to climb anything anywhere is offset by the need to smith tons of chisels to abuse them as stakes. Could also add the ability to retrieve the chisel (with less durability) later which with the now removed item pickup delay could make for some ballsy two chisel plays.

Oh, I like this too! Though I would say maybe use nails/strips rather than chisels in this case to offset the cost a bit. The inspiration for the main idea though was the pueblo ruins of the American Southwest. Not that I expect players to be building pueblos, but the idea of taking the time to create a dedicated climbing path seemed pretty cool, and would be a little less obvious than ladders. Probably good for designing cool parkour courses in a build too.

 

4 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Then there is the issue of stamina, should a player be allowed to climb a mountain side (say 20+ blocks) without needing to stop?

Realistically, no, but players can already sprint around and climb ladders without any limits, so realism wasn't really a concern. I don't think the speed needs to be slower than climbing a ladder either since the concept itself is basically creating and climbing a stone ladder.  Of course, the player will want to be careful as faster movements make it easier to fall, especially if they aren't paying attention to what they're doing.

 

4 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Take the Eidolon for example, if you could climb the walls that would make that whole 'boss battle' an entirely different experience. In fact the whole of the Archives would be changed drastically.

For sure, but I don't think that's possible with this suggestion, unless the walls there are cracked or something. In the event the walls have cracked rocked though, it'd be a case of minor edits potentially getting made to stop unintended actions. As for the chiseled climbing, it would only be the "stone ladders" that are climbable; the player isn't going to be able to use a hammer and chisel in a story location to climb wherever they want as altering blocks like that isn't allowed. They'd need to looked for pre-existing climbing paths, whether that's ladders, swaths of cracked rock, or hand/toeholds, but even then there's no guarantee that those climbing routes have to go anywhere useful. 

 

4 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

No mention of a grappling hook? I was just looking at the fishing mechanism and wondering if the way in which the line was created (nothing else like it in VS) it could be used for something else. A grappling hook could be one option.

A grappling hook could work as well, but it's also a common suggestion when climbing gets brought up, hence why I didn't mention it here. I was trying to come up with something different, that didn't involve using a completely new item.