Trader Realism

[ifoz]

2 hours ago, Bruno Willis said:

I think this idea of cluster generation for structures is seriously good. Maybe there could be an underlying structure generation pass, where a number of ruins generate, (approximately half of what currently spawns) and where some traders generate (approximately 1/4 of the current number), using the normal generation system. Then the game lays a checkerboard of clusters across the world and designates "Deep Wilderness" "Wilderness" and "Inhabited," which then determines where it generates a second round of clustered traders for "inhabited", and extra ruins for "wilderness" and "deep wilderness", with improved loot in "deep wilderness", as well as extra dense brush and old growth. 

It could also be interesting if stock lists and prices varied based on how far from general civilisation a trader was.
If a treasure hunter is very far out, they'd have a few extra items of stock, and maybe some special offers. On the other hand if they were closer, they'd have less stock and higher prices due to the lack of ruins nearby.

Same for something like a building materials trader - out in the wilderness they'd primarily sell planks, raw daub, clay, mudbrick and logs. Closer to civilisation is when they'd start stocking wallpaper, polished stone and coloured ceramic bricks.
Clothing traders in the wilds could sell more practical pieces (fur/warm clothes, and some pre-owned ragged pieces on the cheap), while closer to civilisation they'd start selling fancier and embroidered things.

The same goes for what they'd buy - traders in the wilderness wouldn't be very picky at all, but a trader closer to a general area of civilisation might request specific types of food, tools or clothing.

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Unrelated to the above, but I just have to say this thread has brought up some awesome ideas. I've always been interested with the traders and potential interactions they could theoretically have, and that's only been expedited with their 1.22 makeover!

Edited Sunday at 12:16 PM by ifoz

[runnybabbit]

2 hours ago, ifoz said:

Same for something like a building materials trader - out in the wilderness they'd primarily sell planks, raw daub, clay, mudbrick and logs. Closer to civilisation is when they'd start stocking wallpaper, polished stone and coloured ceramic bricks.

It might also feel coherent (trying to find a better term than "realism") to tie distance to restock times and/or prices? Since feasibly things like glass, bricks, and plaster might still have some demand on the frontier... just at a higher premium. 

 

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, ifoz said:

If a treasure hunter is very far out, they'd have a few extra items of stock, and maybe some special offers. On the other hand if they were closer, they'd have less stock and higher prices due to the lack of ruins nearby.

I don't know that they need to have less stock if they're closer to civilization. Higher prices should be enough, given that their stock has probably changed hands several times before it got to them, and everyone's making sure they get their cut. The traders also don't want to sell out of their goods too fast, as that means they aren't turning as much profit as they could and can also be a turn-off for customers as well(who wants to visit a merchant that never has anything to sell?).

 

2 hours ago, ifoz said:

Same for something like a building materials trader - out in the wilderness they'd primarily sell planks, raw daub, clay, mudbrick and logs. Closer to civilisation is when they'd start stocking wallpaper, polished stone and coloured ceramic bricks.
Clothing traders in the wilds could sell more practical pieces (fur/warm clothes, and some pre-owned ragged pieces on the cheap), while closer to civilisation they'd start selling fancier and embroidered things.

I dunno. The player is more likely to encounter the ones in the wilderness, so from a game balance standpoint, the player is probably going to be more interested in buying what they can't easily obtain, rather than stuff they could easily make themselves. From a "realistic" standpoint, I think the wilderness traders could have some of the fancier stuff in stock, but perhaps at a lower prices since the items in question haven't been through as many middlemen yet. In that case, they can afford to charge a lower price, since customers are a little more rare and fancy items are a little harder to sell unless one is just passing them on to the next trader that comes through. The lower prices also give players a reason to go out of their way to go visit those traders, instead of just relying on the ones closest to pockets of civilization.

One thing I would really like to see, is traders selling more climate-specific items as exotic goods. I don't really care about buying oak or maple wood, as I can easily go for a walk and get as much as I need most of the time, since I play temperate climate. I want access to stuff like ebony, purpleheart, and kapok without having to travel all the way to the tropics to get it, and I don't really care if it's expensive to buy it like that either. 

[MKMoose]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I dunno. The player is more likely to encounter the ones in the wilderness, so from a game balance standpoint, the player is probably going to be more interested in buying what they can't easily obtain, rather than stuff they could easily make themselves. From a "realistic" standpoint, I think the wilderness traders could have some of the fancier stuff in stock, but perhaps at a lower prices since the items in question haven't been through as many middlemen yet. In that case, they can afford to charge a lower price, since customers are a little more rare and fancy items are a little harder to sell unless one is just passing them on to the next trader that comes through. The lower prices also give players a reason to go out of their way to go visit those traders, instead of just relying on the ones closest to pockets of civilization.

One thing I would really like to see, is traders selling more climate-specific items as exotic goods. I don't really care about buying oak or maple wood, as I can easily go for a walk and get as much as I need most of the time, since I play temperate climate. I want access to stuff like ebony, purpleheart, and kapok without having to travel all the way to the tropics to get it, and I don't really care if it's expensive to buy it like that either. 

Both from the perspective of immersion and gameplay, this should probably just depend on a lot on the specific trader and specific goods in question, and many if not all traders should probably be exclusive to either the populated or the less populated areas. As a general rule, I think the main goals here are (1) drive a clear direction of trade and (2) prevent short-distance or next-door trading. Any resource that can be purchased from traders should have a sink in a different part of the world (or no sink at all), and I think it would make sense for those closer to civilization to sell ready-to-use items and buy raw resources to be processed as well as some rare trinkets, but be disinterested in common items that other nearby traders might have already provided them with. Those in the wilderness, on the other hand, would buy many of those processed items (things like tools and clothes especially, essentially the universal needs I've described earlier here), and sell ready-to-process raw materials they've obtained or rare valuables. Something of the sort. Like this, maybe:

• an agricultural trader out in the wilds should probably have a large variety of regional and gathered foods in smaller quantities, potentially some very valuable ones; near other traders, they will sell large quantities of a limited selection of common foods, as well as trade more exotic plants from other regions of the world for a high price,
• a survival goods trader living in the wilderness may fit under a label like "hunter" better (I know that this would conflict with the class, but not sure what else to use), selling some immediately useful survival items and stuff like meat and hides in fairly large quantities, whereas closer to other traders they should primarily sell items that a person might reasonably need when preparing for travel like long-lasting food, warm clothes, lanterns and tools, and they could actually buy the meat and hides that the ones in the wilderness sell to turn it into that long-lasting food and warm clothes,
• a commodities trader, while in the wild, could probably be renamed to a "prospector" or something of the sort, selling many raw materials, whereas the ones in more populated areas would buy raw materials and sell more complex products like nails and strips, fertilizer, blasting powder, parchment,
• a building materials trader could receive similar treatment and focus on obtaining the wood, stone, clay and other materials that the traders in larger settlements could turn into furniture and actual building blocks,
• an artisan, furniture or luxury trader should primarily if not only live in highly populated areas, and their in-game purpose (alongside the building materials trader) should be supplying the player and functioning as rusty gear sinks (important for multiplayer economy) more than particularly meaningful interaction with the traders in the wilderness,
• a treasure hunter only really makes sense in the wilderness for the most part, and should sell a lot of items that luxury traders look for.

Those would probably need to be tweaked a lot, still, to make them properly make sense, and you might notice that I've even come to some different solutions from those suggested by @ifoz despite talking about the same topic from a similar perspective.

Edited Sunday at 04:58 PM by MKMoose

[Bruno Willis]

5 hours ago, MKMoose said:

Both from the perspective of immersion and gameplay, this should probably just depend on a lot on the specific trader and specific goods in question, and many if not all traders should probably be exclusive to either the populated or the less populated areas. As a general rule, I think the main goals here are (1) drive a clear direction of trade and (2) prevent short-distance or next-door trading. Any resource that can be purchased from traders should have a sink in a different part of the world (or no sink at all), and I think it would make sense for those closer to civilization to sell ready-to-use items and buy raw resources to be processed as well as some rare trinkets, but be disinterested in common items that other nearby traders might have already provided them with. Those in the wilderness, on the other hand, would buy many of those processed items (things like tools and clothes especially, essentially the universal needs I've described earlier here), and sell ready-to-process raw materials they've obtained or rare valuables. Something of the sort. Like this, maybe:

If the devs want to enable a trader play style, I think the idea of a provider and a consumer is a really important one to work on. At the moment I think the traders are confusing: do they make/find most of what they sell? It seems like they buy in at least some of it, which implies large, distant societies (as do the various trader banners). So maybe the player is best suited to being a finder of rare and special materials, were the traders are more sedentary, with established but boring trade partners elsewhere. I'd like to be the one bringing ebony to furniture traders who can't find it, because I've been brave enough to use translocators which no-one else will risk. 

On the other side though, It also seems like the traders which currently exist are ill-suited to dealing with, buying, selling, transporting, bulk supplies. But, buying cheep bulk supplies and then delivering them where they're needed would be a very rewarding and possibly profitable type of gameplay for the player. I think that'd ask for a different sort of trader structure: Hamlets. These would be little extended family unit, fortified farms, or charcoal burner camps, the sort of people who could reasonably be producers of bulk goods, and probably need a little bit of everything. That way the player could buy bulk grains from a tiny farming community, and then travel to all the other little hamlets, selling portions of that stock to each other community. Basically, the seraph would take on the risk of traveling in a very dangerous world so that all these little communities could get rid of their excess produce in exchange for a little bit of everyone else's specialized stuff. 

What if we used clusters like this: The game places down tiny hamlets across the world, very randomly and widely spread out. There are large empty areas and areas where they are a bit closer together. The hamlets have between 3 - 6 people living in them, usually at least one parent and one child to imply human continuity. They have basic concerns, are barely scraping by, but each can easily produce lots of one thing. Hamlets produce basic goods in bulk, and buy basic goods in small amounts, as well as occasionally requesting rarer things. Example hamlets:

• Farmers. Have a fortified farmhouse, surrounded by small fields. Produce plenty of grain and bread, and don't buy any of it. Will buy a small amount of any other hamlets trades, for fair prices. Grandmother wants to by lapiz.
• Pig farmers. Large walled yard and refurbished tower. They have domestic pigs in the yard. Sell meat (ideally salami) Will buy a small amount of any other hamlets trades, for fair prices. Daughter wants to buy a wolf pup.
• Wood-cutters. Wood-palisade and low wattle huts. Sell logs from the local trees in bulk, as well as firewood. Will buy a small amount of any other hamlets trades, for fair prices. Father wants 1 ebony support beam, to make a replacement wooden leg. 

Surrounding each hamlet the game generates maybe 3-4 traders, at good, varied distances. The traders work as normal, except that each trader will offer only the location of the hamlet, whereas the hamlet people offer the location of every trader that generated around them. Traders sell small, precious items, or things which a master of their craft can make. 

In areas which are far from a hamlet, the game generates a special ruin, something really exciting to come across, with some extra good loot. It then adds old growth and ups the bear and wolf spawns around that area. (ideally it generates a cluster of bear and wolf cave dens around the ruin, like traders around a hamlet, but wolves and bears don't have homes yet).