Survival mode chisel

[Erik]

As of now, the chisel is uncraftable and only obtainable in creative mode. I can see, why it is has not been implemented into creative mode right away, as it would give players too much freedom.

Too much freedom? Yes, limitation fosters creativity, taking away the limitations will also make creativity less prevalent.

To preserve some kind of limitation I would suggest only being able to chisel away eighth-blocks, the biggest setting for the chisel. This would effectively replace all stairs and slabs in the game and allow for some new forms in survival mode.

Furthermore I would suggest a rework of the slabs and stairs in the game:

• Slabs and stairs are entirely removed from the game.
• Chiseled blocks in the form of slabs, stairs and eighth blocks are rename into slabs, stairs and corners when broken and have custom placement/rotation mechanisms in place (basically allowing them to be placed like they are peaceable right now).
• There are new json-tags which can be attached to blocktypes. These will make stairs, slabs and corner (chiseled blocks) appear in the creative menu.

The list of blocks that can be chiseled should also be accessible via json and blocks affected by gravity shouldn't be chisel-able for obvious reasons.

[redram]

As long as chiseled blocks show up on the map correctly.  I hated in TFC dynmap how chiseled blocks were transparent, so roofs and such in a lot of towns were invisible on the map, which mad them look pretty bad.  Also I think it's best to leave half-slabs and stairs as an option.  Half slabs especially are quite often faster to just craft and place, than to chisel.

[tony Liberatto]

DO NOT REMOVE STAIRS AND SLABS FROM THE GAME.
I have no problem with having the chisel in the game. I do not understand what the big deal is about letting the player have the chisel. How is this going to ruin the game for other players? It should be a personal decision for the player if he/she wants to use the chisel or not. 
Besides that, if someone wants to have the trouble of using a chisel every time he/she needs to make stairs or slabs, I am totally OK with that. 
But, please do not remove the blocks from the game.
I like to build big projects. And having to use the chisel all the time would be immensely cumbersome. I use a lot of stairs and slabs in my buildings.

Just imagine having to make stairs and slabs for this using chisels. 

[MammaJamma]

As you may already know, I want the chisel.  I want to be able to round corners and take stripes out of things and make lattice but please no bits.  Hardmode should be schisel only no slabs or stairs just to watch Tony's head explode.  Well also to make me happy but...

 

[Erik]

15 hours ago, redram said:

Also I think it's best to leave half-slabs and stairs as an option.  Half slabs especially are quite often faster to just craft and place, than to chisel.

 

13 hours ago, tony Liberatto said:

DO NOT REMOVE STAIRS AND SLABS FROM THE GAME.

I'm not suggesting removing stairs and slabs on a gameplay level, I'm only suggesting replacing them with chiseled blocks on an internal level. Crafting recipes can still exist, even if they are technically chiseled blocks.

[tony Liberatto]

I would go around the other way. That was the discussion I had with Bioxx at the time. 
Instead of turning a slab into a chiseled block. Make a chiseled block into a slab. For as long as you are actively chiseling a block, you can make it into any shape you want. But once you are done with it, if it has the shape of a slab, it is a slab, and on the next game tick, it will be a slab for all purposes.  So, keep the crafting recipes for stairs and slabs. Because of no way players that work on big projects will like to have to chisel each block to make stairs and slabs. But if you happen to have a chisel on you and just want to make a quick few steps or slabs you are still able to do it with a chisel. There will be no issues with rendering on maps if the game automatically turns them into actual slabs and stairs.

[Erik]

50 minutes ago, tony Liberatto said:

There will be no issues with rendering on maps if the game automatically turns them into actual slabs and stairs.

Are there any right now? And if there where, Tyron could fix them.

51 minutes ago, tony Liberatto said:

Instead of turning a slab into a chiseled block. Make a chiseled block into a slab. For as long as you are actively chiseling a block, you can make it into any shape you want. But once you are done with it, if it has the shape of a slab, it is a slab, and on the next game tick, it will be a slab for all purposes. 

But then the block can't be chiseled further. Slabs/stairs aren't chisel-able and this is the main reason against them. The change you suggest would therefore actively hurt gameplay.

54 minutes ago, tony Liberatto said:

So, keep the crafting recipes for stairs and slabs.

As I said in my previous post, slabs and stairs could still be crafted with my changes, but they would technically be chiseled blocks.

[tony Liberatto]

1. We do not know what or if there will be map rendering issues with chiseled blocks. It was a serious issue in TFC, As the map had no idea how to render chiseled blocks. When people made stairs by chiseling, especially for Roofs. The maps could not read them and distorted the result. Not sure if we would have this issue in VS. We do not have anything like Dynmap, something that can be accessed in a webpage by all the players in a server. We will see when we get there. 
2. The block can be chiseled until you stop chiseling it. Once you made a slab, and walk away, when you come back it would be an actual slab. That means if you break it, it would stack with all the other slabs in your inventory. That is a problem right now. every single chiseled block in your inventory uses one slot, and they cannot stack. It's like the inventory does not Know that they have the same shape. Much easier to turn them into actual stairs and slabs.
3. I see no advantages in permanently turning stairs and slabs into chiseled blocks. I see gameplay, rendering, and game memory usage advantages in turning chiseled blocks into actual blocks, that can be broken and replaced and will stack in inventory.

I think we are having a somewhat out of phase discussion. Like I have not completely grasped what you are trying to achieve here.
I do agree with the fundamental point of your post. Let players have the chisel in survival mode. The tool is already in the game. The only thing missing is a recipe. It is a metal tool, so, not available in the stone age. It does not affect the survival gameplay aspect of the game. Once the player has enough metal to make a chisel, he is not surviving anymore, he is building his castle. Why not let the player explore his creativity with the ability to create unique blocks?

I am not even against the possibility to let the player create stairs and slabs with a chisel. I just want to be able to break them into actual stairs and slabs if for any reason I am remodeling or changed my mind about the design of my Castle. And in no way I want the chisel to be the basic way to make those blocks. 

 

[MammaJamma]

In TFC chiseled blocks were not breakable and movable, they just broke and disappeared.  It could be frustrating but it decreased a lot of inventory problems and i'm sure programming issues.  

[redram]

41 minutes ago, MammaJamma said:

In TFC chiseled blocks were not breakable and movable, they just broke and disappeared.  It could be frustrating but it decreased a lot of inventory problems and i'm sure programming issues.  

Right, but iirc chiseled blocks in VS are actually moveable - quite an advantage vs TFC, and maybe minecraft in general?  I don't know how chisels and bits mod works in that regard.  But like Tony said, each one is it's own individual non-stacking block, so not very practical in large-scale applications.

[Erik]

3 hours ago, tony Liberatto said:

1. The block can be chiseled until you stop chiseling it. Once you made a slab, and walk away, when you come back it would be an actual slab. That means if you break it, it would stack with all the other slabs in your inventory. That is a problem right now. every single chiseled block in your inventory uses one slot, and they cannot stack. It's like the inventory does not Know that they have the same shape. Much easier to turn them into actual stairs and slabs.

To turn them into actual stairs and slabs you have to recognize the shape in any rotation. This would require as much work as to turn chiseled blocks into stackable, rotated variants. This would also solve the stacking problem.

4 hours ago, tony Liberatto said:

1.  I see no advantages in permanently turning stairs and slabs into chiseled blocks. I see gameplay, rendering, and game memory usage advantages in turning chiseled blocks into actual blocks, that can be broken and replaced and will stack in inventory.

You can chisel chiseled blocks after placing them. Chiseled blocks are also very optimized memory wise and rendering them isn't any more expansive than rendering slabs or stairs.