Echoweaver Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 I find a bit odd that water transport is gated behind saws when pottery is commonly used to transport water in real society. It seems like, at the very least, a ceramic pot could be used to transport water blocks in early game. Barrel crafting could wait until actual barrels. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn Posted May 4, 2023 Report Share Posted May 4, 2023 I think it's probably a balance issue. Farming used to be gated behind a copper hoe, because, let's face it, stone age farming is really OP. I don't find it that big of a deal, honestly. I just set one of my first "bases" near a shoreline and place medium fertility soil such that it replaces the top layer of a lake. (Obviously packed soil below that in Wilderness.) No moving water about. If for whatever reason you cannot find a large enough body of water to build a farm ON, it's pretty easy to find somewhere you can dig irrigation ditches onto land from the shore, all the way around the "pond". By the time you outgrow that, you'll should have plenty of copper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khornet Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Meh, I'm personally glad I get to make wooden buckets instead of being forced to smith metal ones (or being forced to smith barrel hoops for that matter, but I'm sure we're getting there now that chests require some metal parts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echoweaver Posted May 5, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 Stone age farming didn't seem terribly OP to me. It seems like farming should be accessible at a low tech level. With finding an appropriate place to farm and a decent amount of seeds, then the length of time it takes for crops to grow, agriculture seemed paced pretty well for winter prep. Plus stone tools break constantly, which seems appropriate. It's really a matter of immersion rather than game balance, though. I like how natural the tech flow feels in this game, so when it feels forced to push something to a later tech level, that really jumps out. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJim Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 1 hour ago, Echoweaver said: It's really a matter of immersion rather than game balance, though. I like how natural the tech flow feels in this game, so when it feels forced to push something to a later tech level, that really jumps out. Definitely agree with this. IMO game balance is important, but not when it sacrifices consistency in logic. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakko Posted May 5, 2023 Report Share Posted May 5, 2023 There are also some players that enjoy spending time in the stone age. From that perspective, the lack of pottery water transport (and stone hoes) seems very odd and artificially constraining. Having said that, weren't bowls given the ability to carry water? I thought perhaps pots were too. Obviously I haven't tried either one since joining the leap-frog to copper crowd. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn Posted May 6, 2023 Report Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) On 5/4/2023 at 10:50 PM, Echoweaver said: Stone age farming didn't seem terribly OP to me. It's certainly been nerfed since 1.17. Used to be it was pretty easy to have a working mill plus full gambeson by mid June. In 1.18, that's pushed off until at least mid July or early August. In any case, you can still have multiple fully-upgraded mills running before snow flies, if you choose. Even with the increased rate of hunger in Wilderness, it's easy to put up much more than you will eat over the winter by the middle of summer. Without moving a drop of water, just building out into the lakes. On 5/5/2023 at 10:58 AM, dakko said: Having said that, weren't bowls given the ability to carry water? I thought perhaps pots were too. I thought so too, but I never got it to work, and quit trying. Wasn't important enough to me. I just opted to play the game on its terms, rather than mine. On 5/5/2023 at 12:39 AM, LJim said: Definitely agree with this. IMO game balance is important, but not when it sacrifices consistency in logic. We know from history that with the medieval crop yields, maintaining (and replacing as necessary) standard clothing took around a 1/4 acre, or about 1/8 hectare, i.e., about a 30x40 field in VS. I'm definitely not growing that much my first year. A couple hundred blocks, sure, 1200, no. And a set of sails is, what, 10x the amount of linen as a set of clothes? If so would require somewhere on the order of a 100x100 field. If consistency in logic is important, then a mill should be a decade long project. Definitely more realistic, but more fun? I'm not seeing it. [EDIT] Thing is there are at least two different games being played here. If one is playing for the building part of the game, you need to have food un-naturally productive, as you don't have the time for foraging, hunting and farming that someone playing the survival part of the game has. Currently, it's heavily balanced in favor of building. The reason people lived in hovels was not because they preferred that, but because after seeing to collecting and storing food, there was not enough time left to build anything fancy. [/EDIT] Edited May 6, 2023 by Thorfinn Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dakko Posted May 6, 2023 Report Share Posted May 6, 2023 (edited) I just went in to check on the bowl & pot for water: Bowl can hold 1 liter of water, which can be placed into barrel in increments. It cannot be used to fill a hole, but at least you could take advantage of trader barrels (assuming you could stand the tedium). Pot cannot pick up water. [eta: unless there is some key combo that I missed] For transporting a full block though, it would be nice if we had a ceramic vessel. I'd forgotten how much I used to enjoy staying in the stone age for awhile. If nothing else, a ceramic vessel would add ambiance and bring an extra element of immersive pleasure. Edited May 7, 2023 by dakko 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJim Posted May 7, 2023 Report Share Posted May 7, 2023 (edited) 5 hours ago, Thorfinn said: Definitely more realistic, but more fun? I'm not seeing it. That's why I used the phrase "consistency in logic" rather than "realistic" in my post Or "consistency in design logic" if you will. Edited May 7, 2023 by LJim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thorfinn Posted May 7, 2023 Report Share Posted May 7, 2023 Fair. I'm just not sure that there's a logical consistency that a shirt has the same amount of linen as a set of 4 sails. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echoweaver Posted May 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2023 Fair. One inconsistency at a time. Also, we have sails? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LJim Posted May 10, 2023 Report Share Posted May 10, 2023 1 hour ago, Echoweaver said: Fair. One inconsistency at a time. Also, we have sails? Sails for windmills Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Echoweaver Posted May 10, 2023 Author Report Share Posted May 10, 2023 Ohhhhh. Not sails for sailboats, which we don't have in vanilla. Gotcha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gonnnn Posted May 13, 2023 Report Share Posted May 13, 2023 There are clay jugs for transporting somewhat larger amounts of fluid, but it's still not enough to move a whole block of water. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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