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Respawn of stick and flint


Wahazar

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Hello, I'm new here, but I'm notorious player of TFC since its first version.

I remember a common problem of TerraFirmaCraft servers - land around spawn is completely clean, no sticks and stones around few km in case of long-lasting servers.

Seems there is similar issue with this game (judging by lurking into non-modded public servers).

 

My proposal is to allow stick and flint respawn (maybe after a storm)? Flint should respawn on the beach, while branches in forests and on the beach.

Additionally, breaking gravel should sometimes give flint or stone of gravel type, instead of gravel. Similar to MC mechanism.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Wahazar said:

Additionally, breaking gravel should sometimes give flint or stone of gravel type, instead of gravel. Similar to MC mechanism.

You can get flint and stones of the gravel type by panning the sand/gravel, not to mention other goodies

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OK, but you need to have knife to carve pan.

What new player is supposed to do, if server is licked dry around spawn? Branches can be achieved by breaking leaves, if there are still leaves low enough, but flint?

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It's a larger problem, though. All the wild crops within a few thousand are also gone. Many players won't replant the trees after they cut them down. The berry bushes are not only picked clean and the berries long since gone to rot, and the bushes themselves have been taken. Cattails are at best just roots, but often gone entirely, either transplanted or harvested without a knife. All the non-varmint protein is hunted to extinction, not to respawn for, well, I don't know how long. At least mushrooms have the decency to regrow. Eventually. If someone had the decency to just harvest them rather than dig them up because the shovel is faster, and you need dirt anyway.

I don't have any solutions, mind you. Single player is easy enough without resource respawns. Best I've been able to come up with is you spawn in a chunk that has not been mapgenned yet, with a translocator (broken) that sends you back to a translocator near world spawn. That is, when you go through that common worldspawn translocator, it takes you to your personal translocator.

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Springboarding off what Thorfinn pointed out--I don't think it's an issue with Vintage Story as much as it is a hazard of multiplayer in general, given that the same problems exist in other games as well. A lot of it hinges on the server admins and what rules they have to help maintain it, and whether or not they enforce those rules. It also hinges on how many players frequent the server and what their general mindsets are.

There's not really a way to stop resource drain entirely, as over time regions will eventually be depleted of certain resources(mostly ores and stone--the non-renewable types). I think a lot of times servers will offer teleports to new players, so that they can be dropped into fresh chunks miles away from settled chunks, and thus have a bounty of resources to work with. Having a basic starting survival kit(some food, and a couple basic stone tools) can help as well, if the new player is going to remain closer to settled chunks.

It's also really easy to just take what you need at the time without worrying about whether it grows back for someone else(like breaking cattails without a knife, chopping trees but not replanting). Doing it in singleplayer isn't a big deal, as you're the only player to worry about in that world. On small servers with only a handful of people, it's also not too much of an issue, as there is plenty of room and resources to work with. On large servers it becomes a bigger problem much more quickly(especially if it's a server that's been around a while!), as there are now more players trying to share the same amount of space and resources.

I'd also say that Vintage Story inherently encourages players to work as a team in multiplayer settings; split the work into different player roles and build a small thriving village community first to keep everyone alive and healthy before splitting off to work individual bases. That way there's also infrastructure to help new players settle in when they join. The issue here is that whether or not that happens depends a lot on what kind of server it is to begin with. If it's a free-for-all or PvP-oriented setting, it's likely going to be a whole lot rougher starting out than it would be on other types of servers.

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Truth. Another large part is the genre itself. A game year is a little over 40 hours. As a server approaches 100% with at least 1 active user, if you check in once a day, half a year has gone by. Take off a weekend and not only has whatever you planted already suffered from heat stress, but it's also been winter killed. And except for grain and jam, and maybe a few crocks, everything in your storage has gone to rot. It's pretty hard to make either approach seem realistic, since you can't very well stop the seasons.

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2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Truth. Another large part is the genre itself. A game year is a little over 40 hours. As a server approaches 100% with at least 1 active user, if you check in once a day, half a year has gone by. Take off a weekend and not only has whatever you planted already suffered from heat stress, but it's also been winter killed. And except for grain and jam, and maybe a few crocks, everything in your storage has gone to rot. It's pretty hard to make either approach seem realistic, since you can't very well stop the seasons.

This too. I also forgot to mention that sticks already respawn, sort of. Or rather than respawn, players are meant to use shears to cut the leaves off trees before chopping them down(which will yield a lot more sticks and seeds than normal!) Now of course, all that is useless if there are no trees to harvest for resources, which again ties back to the hazards of playing with other people instead of by yourself.

The only thing I could really think of that could be potentially added to help deal with the issues is perhaps a few more configuration options or other tools for server admins to use to help curate a fun experience for large servers. But server tools only do so much when the root of the matter lies with player population and personalities.

Edit: Also, while I'm thinking out loud--this is also why I wouldn't recommend brand new players dive right into multiplayer without learning some of the basics in singleplayer first. Or at least avoiding heavily populated, highly active servers until they have a better grasp on game mechanics. A smaller server is probably fine, especially with a friend or two, but a large server full of strangers may be a bit too much to handle at first, depending on the individual.

Edited by LadyWYT
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Well, which resources should respawn on public multiplayer server, can be matter of long discussion, but stick and stones are the must. For example near water (due to erosion/rain streams/waves)

Cattails should sometimes also respawn, not only because they are important start resource, but they real counterpart is really invasive (wind spreads their fluffy seeds).

Or just add (more expensive) grass recipe for baskets.

 

Time in multiplayer servers is another topic. I remember some TFC servers with extended time (30 days per month, also decay and growth slower), but server was not stopping in absence of players. Thanks for such approach, one year in game was exactly 5 days (or something similar), thus it was reliable and easy to calculate: "today is spring, autumn will be Tuesday".

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2 hours ago, Wahazar said:

Well, which resources should respawn on public multiplayer server, can be matter of long discussion, but stick and stones are the must. For example near water (due to erosion/rain streams/waves)

You mean from a realism standpoint? Gameplay standpoint? Only food is necessary from a gameplay standpoint. Eventually, in a million by a million world, you will find virgin ground. You just have to not starve before you get there. Or quit from boredom. The only practical way I see being able to join at any point in time and get more or less a single player experience is if berry bushes produce year round, and, if not indestructible, at least propagate via clippings, not via transplant. Without food, there's no point in flint and sticks unless you just want to open your wrists and end it all.

In an active MP server, you are not expected to be able to go it alone from spawn. Like @LadyWYT says, you seek out the community and they give you the seeds and food to get you started, and you figure out how you can be an asset to the community. Ideally, such a community would construct a road system with signposts pointing you to their village, and place wayside rests along the way with directions of where they buried a crock of food (inside the hut) so you can survive long enough to get there.

[EDIT]

Oh, plum slipped my mind. I meant to welcome you in my first reply, since I saw it was your first post. So, belated welcome! Swing on by. I'll throw another steak on the fire.

[/EDIT]

Edited by Thorfinn
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The other thing about respawning sticks and rocks is...they're probably gonna respawn in one's base too, which means a lot of cleanup that's going to get a bit tedious if you want a tidy base. Also, letting sticks and rocks respawn still doesn't prevent players from picking the area clean. Rather, I'd say it probably makes the behavior worse, as now they don't need to leave spawn to find that stuff anymore. So if it's a slow respawn rate, the area is still going to be picked clean. If it's a high respawn rate, there may be a better chance to craft basic tools without needing to walk miles to find the materials, but now base cleanup is going to be a real chore.

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7 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

The other thing about respawning sticks and rocks is...they're probably gonna respawn in one's base too

As I mentioned, my proposal was restricted to the beach and lake biome. 

Argument about "players would sit near spawn because of free stones and stick" is not valid - other resources are also depleted, like copper, or even clay, thus new players will tend to go far away from spawn anyway. Also lot of land is claimed around spawn, so it is good to move away anyway. However moving away in case of VS is disputable due to lack of early spawn point device. In case of TFC it was quite opposite  - hay bed didn't allow to skip night, but was able to set spawn point.

But stick and stones are necessary to make survival kit allowing to travel and make faster temporary dugout if needed. 

Another idea:

19 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

. Best I've been able to come up with is you spawn in a chunk that has not been mapgenned yet, with a translocator (broken) that sends you back to a translocator near world spawn. That is, when you go through that common worldspawn translocator, it takes you to your personal translocator.

Not sure if "not generated chunk" is a good idea due to server memory usage, but existing mechanism for spawn after death within 5km random range could be used here (I mean, individual player spawn point is generated in this range, and is later fixed for this player). 

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12 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

Without food, there's no point in flint and sticks unless you just want to open your wrists and end it all.

Without flint and sticks, fish and other animals aren't food.

Edited by Bumber
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19 minutes ago, Wahazar said:

BTW, why seaweeds drop nothing? They were edible in TFC (I didn't check these in sea, yet, only in lake).

That may change next update considering that we're supposed to be getting proper boats to sail around in. In the meantime, I recall seeing somewhere that more food options are planned for the game, but not a priority at the moment due to the variety we have already and other mechanics needing more attention. Until some uses are officially implemented, I think there's a mod or two that adds some functionality to seaweed.

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