Hunting Adjustments (Animal health, Bow damage)

[cautious_asparagus]

Why does hunting need to be adjusted?

As it stands, using a bow to hunt for small-medium sized game is not viable. Earlier game arrows (copper, tin bronze) do not do enough damage to encourage their use, and animals have too much health compared to their "real life" counterparts.

With the amount of effort it takes to make a bow, it has an almost negligible advantage over other ranged options, such as spears. This, combined with the lack of lethal traps or snares (remedied by mods, but it should be in the base game) makes it difficult to routinely acquire enough meat, fat, and hides early in the game.

How do bows in-game compare to real life?

We should take a look at the longbow in-game. A modern longbow, and longbows historically used for hunting, have an average draw weight of around 60 pounds. I am assuming this is the kind of bow we have in-game. A longbow with a draw weight of 60 pounds is more than enough for any kind of game you're likely to encounter. From bears, to moose, to deer. Depending on shot placement and the arrow-head, a single shot it usually enough to kill or incapacitate them.

Compare this to the bows in-game, and there is a massive problem. A bow that should be killing deer in one or two shots is taking several to kill even small game.

What can be done to make this better?

I believe four things can be done to make hunting more satisfying and realistic.

      1. Bleeding

A bleed mechanic would be an easier way to make up for the low power of bows. After taking damage from an arrow of a sufficient tier, an animal would begin to bleed. After a certain amount of time, if the animal does not die, the bleeding would stop. Say, after a period of 5-10 seconds.

Small Animals: Flint arrow and above, 1.50 HP/s bleed. 

Medium Animals:  Copper arrow and above, 1 HP/s bleed. 

Large Animals: Tin Bronze arrow and above, 0.75 HP/s bleed.

Huge Animals: Iron arrow and above, 0.50 HP/s bleed.

An increase in each tier of arrow would contribute more to bleeding. Say, a copper arrow on a small animal would add a 1.50+ HP/s bleed, for a total of 3 HP/s bleed. (Numbers obviously would need tuning, these are just an example).

      2. Animals receive damage based on arrow tier

Instead of arrows just adding a flat damage increase, animals should be affected by the tier of the arrow itself. Small animals, such as rabbits, racoons, and chickens, might be instantly killed by a copper arrow, whereas that same copper arrow will just confer the original flat damage boost to a large animal, and it would take an arrow of a much higher tier to kill a large animal like a deer or moose.

     3. Wounding

Lastly, a wounding mechanic could be implemented. Similarly to bleed, it would activate based on the tier of arrow being used. But instead of inflicting a damage over time effect, it would impair or incapacitate the animal, adding a slow-down effect or similar to the damaged animal.

This wound might last from anywhere from a few days, to weeks, giving a long-term debuff to the affected animal. This also allows predators to maintain a healthy weight, as it would be easier for them to catch and eat wounded animals over healthy ones, letting players contribute to the local ecosystem in a roundabout way.

     4. Locational damage

The last big feature that could revolutionize hunting would be locational damage. Shot placement for arrows would introduce a much bigger skill ceiling, and encourage more clever hunting to get a good shot. A shot to the head or to the center of the chest would do much more damage than a shot to the legs, for example.

[Thorfinn]

Welcome to the forums, @cautious_asparagus!

Pretty sure weapons and combat are going to go through a lot of tweaks. Some of those are serious changes to balance.

Bleeding, for example. Now in 1.20 there is a creature that shoots arrows or javelins or something similar. He already does a lot of damage, and bleeding would drastically increase the challenge, which would seriously affect the n00bs, particularly. And why wouldn't spears or swords also cause the same kinds of bleeding wounds? 

Or how about special damage, like slowed movement. Do you want to be slowed because someone got in a lucky shot? Sure it's more realistic, but is it fun?

Shot placement and other effects also tend not to be fun. Getting one-shotted by a bear or a 2-H drifter is one thing, but if it were possible from any foe using arrows or similar who get in a lucky head-shot? You do a lot less hunting than being hunted.

Edited November 19, 2024 by Thorfinn

[cautious_asparagus]

@Thorfinn Thanks for the reply and feedback

I should note that none of these mechanics are being suggested with players in mind. Solely for animals. to facilitate better hunting.

[LadyWYT]

53 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Pretty sure weapons and combat are going to go through a lot of tweaks. Some of those are serious changes to balance.

Ironically, I got the opposite impression from what Tyron said in a recent interview--the one with Oscillascape, I think? That being said, I do agree, that even if combat is balanced okay now, that doesn't mean that it won't be tweaked in the future. Personally, I would expect it to be, as new creatures and potentially new weapons get added.

2 hours ago, cautious_asparagus said:

1. Bleeding

A bleed mechanic would be an easier way to make up for the low power of bows. After taking damage from an arrow of a sufficient tier, an animal would begin to bleed. After a certain amount of time, if the animal does not die, the bleeding would stop. Say, after a period of 5-10 seconds.

A bleed mechanic would be interesting, if only for tracking purposes. Otherwise, I would say it should maybe be only a chance to cause bleed damage, in order to keep things somewhat balanced between the classes. If the creatures can easily bleed out, it somewhat ruins the balancing between Blackguard and the other classes, since part of the reason Blackguards have the penalty to ranged damage is to make it harder for them to hunt for food. They're tough, hardy fighters and probably the strongest class late-game, but will struggle a bit in the early game due to the increased hunger rate and difficulties securing food sources.

2 hours ago, cautious_asparagus said:

2. Animals receive damage based on arrow tier

Instead of arrows just adding a flat damage increase, animals should be affected by the tier of the arrow itself. Small animals, such as rabbits, racoons, and chickens, might be instantly killed by a copper arrow, whereas that same copper arrow will just confer the original flat damage boost to a large animal, and it would take an arrow of a much higher tier to kill a large animal like a deer or moose.

I want to say this is already somewhat true, though I could be wrong. My understanding of damage tiers is that the higher the tier, the easier it is to do the specified amount of damage to a target with lower tier armor.

2 hours ago, cautious_asparagus said:

 3. Wounding

Lastly, a wounding mechanic could be implemented. Similarly to bleed, it would activate based on the tier of arrow being used. But instead of inflicting a damage over time effect, it would impair or incapacitate the animal, adding a slow-down effect or similar to the damaged animal.

This wound might last from anywhere from a few days, to weeks, giving a long-term debuff to the affected animal. This also allows predators to maintain a healthy weight, as it would be easier for them to catch and eat wounded animals over healthy ones, letting players contribute to the local ecosystem in a roundabout way.

I mean, realistically, if you wound the animal, you should try to find it and finish the job so it doesn't suffer more than necessary. From the gameplay standpoint though, I think it would make hunting too easy, especially if it was paired with the bleeding mechanic mentioned earlier(which, in my opinion, conflicts with this mechanic). As for the predators, I think it makes more sense for them to scavenge carcasses that you don't harvest, or any meat that you throw away. Otherwise, I haven't noticed predators having any difficulties getting themselves a meal when they're hungry.

2 hours ago, cautious_asparagus said:

4. Locational damage

The last big feature that could revolutionize hunting would be locational damage. Shot placement for arrows would introduce a much bigger skill ceiling, and encourage more clever hunting to get a good shot. A shot to the head or to the center of the chest would do much more damage than a shot to the legs, for example.

I want to say this was going to be a thing for the elk mount in 1.20, but was scrapped or otherwise sidelined until a good implementation method could be found. That being said, while it would an interesting way to sharpen and reward player skill...I would say that if it's implemented, it should apply to most all entities, player included. Perhaps as one of the world settings, so that those who want a less punishing experience can turn it off. Because it would certainly be punishing.

Overall, they're not bad ideas by themselves, but I don't think hunting in the game needs to be 100% realistic. Realistic does not always translate to "fun". I would probably be more inclined to opt for something like this to increase the realism a bit, without making things too easy or less fun. https://mods.vintagestory.at/show/mod/7966

1 hour ago, Thorfinn said:

Shot placement and other effects also tend not to be fun. Getting one-shotted by a bear or a 2-H drifter is one thing, but if it were possible from any foe using arrows or similar who get in a lucky head-shot? You do a lot less hunting than being hunted.

Agreed--it's pretty much only fun if you're in the mood for that level of challenge. I daresay that's probably also why you don't see those systems adopted by a lot of games. From my own experience, I installed a mod for Skyrim that did similar to locational damage, in that there was a chance to receive various types of injuries when taking damage in combat(it was random which injury you received). Some of the injuries could be applied to enemies as well. In any case, it made combat much more volatile overall--if things were going your way it could be awesome, but one lucky hit from an enemy could leave you exceedingly frustrated.

[Thorfinn]

27 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Ironically, I got the opposite impression

OK, my bad. I guess I misunderstood. I thought combat was one of those things that was planned to be reworked in the future.

I'm certainly in agreement that hunting is not difficult. Definitely wasn't in 1.19, when you could stand outside their awareness range and fire away at them, and they would just stand there. This changed a little in 1.20. At least they don't just stand there anymore.

39 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

I daresay that's probably also why you don't see those systems adopted by a lot of games.

Kind of like in tabletop RPGs -- critical hits are a lot of fun if the enemy doesn't get them, too. I was playing in a game once where the 9th level ranger was one-shotted by an open-ended crit roll, and ruined several books when he flipped the table and dumped books and soda all in a pile, then threw his chair through a window.

[LadyWYT]

47 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

OK, my bad. I guess I misunderstood. I thought combat was one of those things that was planned to be reworked in the future.

I mean I certainly hope it is, as I do believe there is room for improvement. Plus it would be more interesting to have a bit more choice in weapons, particularly weapons specialized to kill certain types of enemies. For example, if you really hate dealing with bells and other small mechanicals, you might want to use a hammer instead of the falx. A falx might be great against drifters but be less effective against animals(and people?), whereas a "normal" sword might be the opposite.

52 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I'm certainly in agreement that hunting is not difficult. Definitely wasn't in 1.19, when you could stand outside their awareness range and fire away at them, and they would just stand there. This changed a little in 1.20. At least they don't just stand there anymore.

Yeah, if the creatures don't just stand there anymore I could see hunting perhaps needing a small buff to compensate, otherwise it would get fairly frustrating in the early stages of the game. Time will tell though.

55 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

I was playing in a game once where the 9th level ranger was one-shotted by an open-ended crit roll, and ruined several books when he flipped the table and dumped books and soda all in a pile, then threw his chair through a window.

Hopefully he paid for the damages? Windows aren't cheap, and neither are those kinds of books either.

[Thorfinn]

19 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Hopefully he paid for the damages? Windows aren't cheap, and neither are those kinds of books either.

No idea. None of the people sitting near me had drinks, so my books were spared, and I found a new group where I knew everyone.

But even if I hadn't found another group, no gaming is better than bad gaming..

[Rudometkin]

I'm all for a bleeding mechanic across the board. Keep bandages and first aid kits handy to tend to your wounds and stop bleeding. In fact, even burn damage could be treated by different plants found in the woods. (Not sure if burn damage is currently a thing)

[Thorfinn]

9 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

(Not sure if burn damage is currently a thing)

It is. It's just not a separate thing. Damage is damage, whether hunger, cold, falls,  pointed sticks...

Personally, I prefer to keep things simple. I don't want to have a dozen kinds of damage, and take up more already precious inventory with 12 kinds of healing salves.

[Rudometkin]

2 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

It is. It's just not a separate thing. Damage is damage, whether hunger, cold, falls,  pointed sticks...

Personally, I prefer to keep things simple. I don't want to have a dozen kinds of damage, and take up more already precious inventory with 12 kinds of healing salves.

I get the problem of needing 12 kinds of healing salves. Overcomplication to the point you can't go on an adventure without filling up the inventory to account for one feature is not necessarily a great idea. It would be terrible in this case.

But if done right, you could have different types of damage that are more 'afterthoughts' and not so integral to life. Special damages like burn might do minor occasional damage until treated. So you're not going to die from your burn wound, but it is taking up some minor damage here and there until you get home to treat it.

Definitely not necessary, but would add to the healthcare side of the game without ruining the game in my opinion.

If I'm out adventuring and die from burn damage because I touched fire 5 minutes ago and didn't have the specific burn salve I needed, then that's making a huge footprint for everyone who plays the game. Very extreme and demanding.

But if I'm out adventuring and get burn damage because I touched fire, making my health generally lower until I get home and find a burn remedy or just wait it out over the course of 2 days, that to me sounds like a good system.

If a burn effect just lowered your max health a bit and perhaps did minor occasional damage for, say, maybe 2 days, I don't see a problem with this. Burn salve would be something not necessary, but is advantageous for the adventurer who cares to get it. Small enough for the generalist to ignore, big enough for the health concerned adventurer to benefit from.

This game is already so far in the right direction, I'd be cool with just having it as a mod. I still like the idea for vanilla though. 

Edited November 22, 2024 by Rudometkin

[Thorfinn]

34 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

But if I'm out adventuring and get burn damage because I touched fire, making my health generally lower until I get home and find a burn remedy or just wait it out over the course of 2 days, that to me sounds like a good system.

Unless you get that burn damage just outside the RA or maybe one of the new chapter locations, and are thousands or tens of thousands of blocks from home, and possibly probably  not even close to an environment where such herbs grow. I can't think of many things that would be more irritating than just standing around waiting for wounds to heal up over the course of a few days. Particularly when if you get mauled by a bear or fall off a cliff, and a few poultices later you are right as rain.

And going into the RA missing 25% of your max health is a big deal.

[EDIT]

Oh, or if you are just starting the game as a n00b and take one of these special damages, and now instead of 10 max HP, you now have 5 max, until you can figure out how to explore forests without getting killed by wolves. While you are still learning things like you can't just use a knife blade, you have to put a handle on it.

[EDIT2]

It's not necessarily that I hate the idea of special damages. Just implementations that make the already steep learning curve much steeper. You would likely need to spot the n00b some salves so he even knows it's an option. And probably something like a medicine bag that is capable of holding a stack of at least several of the possible salves.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Rudometkin]

32 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Unless you get that burn damage just outside the RA or maybe one of the new chapter locations, and are thousands or tens of thousands of blocks from home, and possibly probably  not even close to an environment where such herbs grow. I can't think of many things that would be more irritating than just standing around waiting for wounds to heal up over the course of a few days. Particularly when if you get mauled by a bear or fall off a cliff, and a few poultices later you are right as rain.

And going into the RA missing 25% of your max health is a big deal.

So then 15% is more reasonable.

If you're on an expedition that big and crucial, it becomes more reasonable to need more preparation for health. I mean, if you're thousands of blocks away from home doing dangerous things, prepare for it. We could all agree with that.

Being able to craft a 'first aid' kit that can bundle a couple of different salves would be a cool way to keep the system mobile without bogging inventory system.

Not in an area where you can get specific salves? Maybe don't go on any of those huge crazy expeditions until you find and pull from those more fundamental areas first. (Also, I wouldn't suggest just standing around because you have a mid-term health problem like missing 10-20% of your cap)

I get simplicity, and added complexity should be handled with extreme care. But this is a survival game, and health is a crucial part of survival. I think expanding on minor damage types atleast deserves serious consideration.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Rudometkin

[Rudometkin]

43 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Oh, or if you are just starting the game as a n00b and take one of these special damages, and now instead of 10 max HP, you now have 5 max, until you can figure out how to explore forests without getting killed by wolves. While you are still learning things like you can't just use a knife blade, you have to put a handle on it.

It's not necessarily that I hate the idea of special damages. Just implementations that make the already steep learning curve much steeper. You would likely need to spot the n00b some salves so he even knows it's an option. And probably something like a medicine bag that is capable of holding a stack of at least several of the possible salves.

I'm thinking the system would work best as having penalties less severe than cutting half max hp from 10 to 5. More like 8.5 from 10.

I think the system can work while being minor enough for the n00b to widely ignore while they are learning the game. "Why am I taking damage?" "You're burned. See? You walked into that campfire for too long. Don't get so close. Don't worry about it. After the night is over we'll look for some Aloe Vera plants. If we don't find them, don't worry about it. It'll go away later. Be careful around fires." "Okay, awesome".

For burn damage, I'm thinking something like starvation type damage, except only once every minute. Something minor that serves as a reminder you're burned. With the addition of the slightly reduced health cap.

On a side note, I propose the steep learning curve in Vintage Story is not a negative that should determine it's future growth. It's a side effect of a masterpiece of a game.

[Thorfinn]

29 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

(Also, I wouldn't suggest just standing around because you have a mid-term health problem like missing 10-20% of your cap)

But what else is there to do? You are 10,000 blocks from home, in terrain you would never build in. (I get it; you have not seen the RA yet. Trust me. Whatever you do, you are not going to be able to bring it back with you, and neither are you going to consider moving here.)

31 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

So then 15% is more reasonable.

I didn't pick 25% out of the blue. Being on fire currently causes something like 0.5/s. Unless you are near water, you will be down 5HP. You play Wilderness, so you start with 10. If you fill all 4 of the non-dairy nutrition bars, you get another 10. Losing 5 out of 20 is 25%.

16 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

I'm thinking the system would work best as having penalties less severe than cutting half max hp from 10 to 5. More like 8.5 from 10.

Sure, but now you apparently are thinking of splitting damage from, say, fire into 3.5 points of poultice healing, 1.5 points of special salve. Not that it's not possible, just that I don't see the big advantage. So instead of 4 poultices, you now use 3 poultices and one burn cream? Presumably you have some health status screen where you can figure out which salves you need to use?

21 minutes ago, Rudometkin said:

For burn damage, I'm thinking something like starvation type damage, except only once every minute. Something minor that serves as a reminder you're burned. With the addition of the slightly reduced health cap.

OK, but that's drastically different than the current 0.5HP per second for 10 seconds, that you can heal back with a couple poultices.

There are mods that do status effects like what you are talking about. There are alchemy and first aid mods. Have you tried any of them yet to see how they work in practice?

[Rudometkin]

I don't intend to steal this thread with a burn mechanic. Advocating for the burn mechanic was a deviation from the proposed bleeding mechanic.

I'm all for the bleeding mechanic, but I do think it should have a chance at happening. Excessive bleeding doesn't always happen from shot wounds. Even in small animals. Sometimes you have clean shots.

[Rudometkin]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

But what else is there to do? You are 10,000 blocks from home, in terrain you would never build in. (I get it; you have not seen the RA yet. Trust me. Whatever you do, you are not going to be able to bring it back with you, and neither are you going to consider moving here.)

I didn't pick 25% out of the blue. Being on fire currently causes something like 0.5/s. Unless you are near water, you will be down 5HP. You play Wilderness, so you start with 10. If you fill all 4 of the non-dairy nutrition bars, you get another 10. Losing 5 out of 20 is 25%.

Sure, but now you apparently are thinking of splitting damage from, say, fire into 3.5 points of poultice healing, 1.5 points of special salve. Not that it's not possible, just that I don't see the big advantage. So instead of 4 poultices, you now use 3 poultices and one burn cream? Presumably you have some health status screen where you can figure out which salves you need to use?

OK, but that's drastically different than the current 0.5HP per second for 10 seconds, that you can heal back with a couple poultices.

There are mods that do status effects like what you are talking about. There are alchemy and first aid mods. Have you tried any of them yet to see how they work in practice?

The idea is to make no changes with what damage fire currently deals. It is to add a burn affect which comes with its own set of problems, (arguably minor, as discussed).

Get burned by fire, take the 5hp hit and heal it back with poultices like normal. This is no problem and is not erased with the expanded damage system. But you do have a problem. You are burned. That is a status effect that you see perhaps in your character screen. You can keep healing the burn damage with poultices. But to get rid of the burn itself, you need to either treat it specifically, or wait it out.

Similar can be applied to bleeding mechanic. Which should not happen every time you are hit.

[Thorfinn]

Sure. I think the same is true with the bleeding mechanic. Even if it only applies to piercing missile, and not to claws or teeth, it's going to be hard in 1.20 to avoid having bleeding damage pretty much constantly, unless you simply never go outside or into caves. Maybe there's something in all climates that stops bleeding, but if not, a couple encounters with one of the new monsters means people are going to just have to sit at home and mend.

Also keep in mind that one of the complaints about starvation damage is knockback bumping you off some precarious perch. Presumably this would also be the case with all other special damage. "So take away knockback." OK, but that has to be a part of the package.

I'm not a Debbie Downer about all suggestions. Just ones that demonstrate one does not yet have enough time in the game to understand the implications.

Edited November 22, 2024 by Thorfinn

[Thorfinn]

I'm not trying to rag on you, @Rudometkin. It's just that as I watched your early play, you are not remotely in the same range as the normal player. You are at least my 10th world or so. I still remember some of the challenges I faced, and how frustrating they were. And you are suggesting cranking it up, not just to 11, but to 24 or so. I really don't want to turn off people who are trying this game. Make it a mod. Fine. I might play it, but probably not without sufficient adjustments like first aid kits. Inventory is just too scarce to add extra fluff. You will probably learn that whenever you start exploring more than a half-day from your base.

[LadyWYT]

5 hours ago, Rudometkin said:

I get the problem of needing 12 kinds of healing salves. Overcomplication to the point you can't go on an adventure without filling up the inventory to account for one feature is not necessarily a great idea. It would be terrible in this case.

But if done right, you could have different types of damage that are more 'afterthoughts' and not so integral to life. Special damages like burn might do minor occasional damage until treated. So you're not going to die from your burn wound, but it is taking up some minor damage here and there until you get home to treat it.

Definitely not necessary, but would add to the healthcare side of the game without ruining the game in my opinion.

I like the idea, but yeah, it probably wouldn't do to overcomplicate the base game. Variety in damage types would give combat a bit more depth though, as it would let players pick weapons suited to killing specific things. So like, if you really hate mechanical things, you might opt for carrying a club instead of an axe, sword, or spear, but it might also mean you'll have a harder time dealing with wolves, bears, and some other things that go bump in the night.

I do think some sort of herbalism mechanic could be cool, though I'm not really sure how it would best apply without resorting to the basic "brew potion, get basic buff". Maybe it could tie in to the brewing/fermenting mechanic that alcohol has? So it's not just a matter of mashing some plants into a bottle and calling it a day; maybe you need to grind them in a mortar/pestle, combine that with a specific oil/liquid, and then let it sit for a while to be of any use. The benefit to going through such a long process is a bandage that heals for a hefty amount(more than the stuff we have already), and that stays fresh for a while(making it useful for trips). Or it could simply ignore part of the healing penalty that armor applies.

[Ketoth]

On 11/19/2024 at 7:53 PM, cautious_asparagus said:

hunting need[s] to be adjusted

Well this thread got completely and utterly derailed into general combat mechanics which OP straight up said isn't what the suggestion is about, be nice if a mod could have a look since the OP is a very well written post and I don't wanna have to do a similar writeup to make the same point if this thread dies lol.

 

But yes, completely agree, hunting in 1.20 has become inviable with animals requiring 4-6 hits to kill using steel arrows and bolting away the moment you get the first hit, hunting anything bigger than a rabbit is now a hugely losing proposition. Trying to hunt deer, the quintessential iron age prey, you'll be going through a steel bar every 20 or so units of red meat due to lost and broken arrows, you'll also be chasing the animals around for at least 5-10 minutes each, not stalking, sprinting, which burns the very satiation you're working for.

And all of that is the best case scenario where your quarry doesn't disappear or fling itself into a hole and give you a crushed carcass (60% of the time because VS has so many god damn random swiss cheese holes everywhere)

It's ridiculous to the point that I'm pretty confident about half the nutrition you're actually getting goes towards either the hunt itself or the crafting of arrows to go hunting.

Considering having access to chickens is required for arrows and the massive detection range on animals makes spear hunting very finicky, who exactly is hunting for right now? It's incredibly inefficient satiation for the resources it takes, and you're already getting your protein from the chickens (and killing wolves and bears, which is outright bizarrely EASIER because they run at you rather than away)

 

 

A slow bleed mechanic as per OP I personally think would be the absolute ideal solution here, humans are persistence hunters. We have hunted from the neolithic period with the power of ""just being annoying and walking until they got tired and died" so something that replicated that such as a 0.25hp/s bleed would work IMO

Could very easily be balanced for combat with a separate set of "hunting arrows" (broadheads or swallowtails as opposed to the vague bodkin points we have currently) from bronze and up which has no armor penetration at all (and maybe even a negative damage value) but inflicts bleed for just long enough that the only thing you'd need more than two shots for would be a bear.

 

I definitely think the bleed should be very slow, 15 damage for a minute or something of the like, so a steel tipped arrow is just enough to kill deer and two of the other arrows kills most things but bears. Again, we don't want this to be useful in combat, it's a hunting mechanic.

[MassiveHobo]

Bows need a buff as do arrows. Spears need higher variants and a slight thrown damage nerf. Arrowheads need a mold for casting. I gotta waste upwards of 50 hammer durability and tons of satiety to make 9 arrows, meanwhile running around with 3 bronze spears means I can kill everything for the entire winter with 20 day months. Bows should force slower walking when drawn. 

[Ketoth]

4 hours ago, MassiveHobo said:

Bows need a buff as do arrows. Spears need higher variants and a slight thrown damage nerf. Arrowheads need a mold for casting. I gotta waste upwards of 50 hammer durability and tons of satiety to make 9 arrows, meanwhile running around with 3 bronze spears means I can kill everything for the entire winter with 20 day months. Bows should force slower walking when drawn. 

mostly agreed, though I wouldn't necessarily nerf spears, they were after all the true "main weapon" of the medieval period. If anything I'd argue in favour of iron and steel polearms, maybe with less thrown damage and more melee damage to reflect their changing use later in history.

[Rudometkin]

On 11/22/2024 at 5:20 PM, Thorfinn said:

I'm not trying to rag on you, @Rudometkin. It's just that as I watched your early play, you are not remotely in the same range as the normal player. You are at least my 10th world or so. I still remember some of the challenges I faced, and how frustrating they were. And you are suggesting cranking it up, not just to 11, but to 24 or so. I really don't want to turn off people who are trying this game. Make it a mod. Fine. I might play it, but probably not without sufficient adjustments like first aid kits. Inventory is just too scarce to add extra fluff. You will probably learn that whenever you start exploring more than a half-day from your base.

Just came back and re-read our discussion here, and I don't think I ever saw this response. I appreciate it!

I definitely am still relatively inexperienced and new. I didn't feel like you were "ragging" on me. I hope to have more discussions like this.

To keep this on topic, I wouldn't think the developers would be against implementing locational damage like Asparagus suggested. I think that would be awesome, just a more difficult system to implement. I think it would tie into the game well.

[OrangFriut]

On 11/19/2024 at 1:53 PM, cautious_asparagus said:

How do bows in-game compare to real life?

We should take a look at the longbow in-game. A modern longbow, and longbows historically used for hunting, have an average draw weight of around 60 pounds. I am assuming this is the kind of bow we have in-game. A longbow with a draw weight of 60 pounds is more than enough for any kind of game you're likely to encounter. From bears, to moose, to deer. Depending on shot placement and the arrow-head, a single shot it usually enough to kill or incapacitate them.

Compare this to the bows in-game, and there is a massive problem. A bow that should be killing deer in one or two shots is taking several to kill even small game.

I couldn't agree more! I'm a very new player, so all I can really expect from this is the usual "erm git gud scrub" stuff you see on reddit, but hunting is actually unbearable.

I made the mistake of trying to be the dedicated 'hunter' of my friend group, and whilst I do succeed in bringing home the bacon, literally, it comes at the expense of literally ALL my game time. Whilst my friends are building a quaint little village and advancing into the Bronze Age, I'm living like a vagrant in the woods. I have made a recurve bow with the copper arrows, and I still cannot kill RABBITS!

I already have poor eyesight, so shooting a tiny little thing with an arrow the size of its whole body, and then watching it immediately bolt off into the brush means I've basically lost it as prey, and the only chance I have at killing larger game like deer is praying to god they try to attack me so I can kite them and turn them into a pin cushion.

I do adore this game, so I don't want any of the devs or vintage story purists to take this the wrong way but... are they stupid? I mean, anyone can look up bow-hunting videos on youtube and watch a man take down an ELK with a single shot to the chest from something like 30 yards out!!! All the while, I've taken the dedicated HUNTER class, which does extra ranged damage, has extra accuracy and range, and I'm using the BEST POSSIBLE BOW, and I cannot shoot more than 20 feet out in front of me without the extreme RNG and projectile drop making it basically a coin toss whether I even land the shot, and when I do, IT DOESNT MATTER!

Who designed these animals? Who made it so that you'd be better off chasing down the game into a corner with a flint spear than actually hunting with a good bow and metal arrows? It's not fun, and its not realistic, so what is it? It isn't done for "balance" considering its extremely imbalanced in the favor of the animals. Is it just done to be gritty for the sake of grittiness?

And we're playing on the official servers that my friend paid for, so I can't just "mod the pain away".