A seperate rust world?

[Trex_Crazy]

Disclaimer: I've still yet to actually go to the resonance archives and so am still ignorant as to the story, no spoilers please.

I enjoy exploring the unknown and dangerous. I always enjoyed the first few expeditions into the nether without potions or enchantments (and also I modded a bunch of things to make the nether more inhospitable). The problem that was pointed out as a counter argument to a seperate rust world plane to explore was that the nether became mundane, familiar, and not particularly dangerous at a certain point. I concur with this and I have a few ideas, another disclaimer: while I have knowledge on the receiving end of system capabilities (graphics cards, cpus, etc) I dont know anything about coding and how some of these ideas may tax low to mid end pc's.

So I think the first thing to tackle is how you get there, Now I have two ideas for this to keep it unfamiliar. one idea is to have it be a more severe temporal storm that takes you to the rust world plane and dropping you somewhere random so you cant have a comfy home base built to be ready when you transport. The issue this runs into is how you get out, it could be that you need to find a way out. But given how strong enemies are during temporal storms, which given you would be in the rust world they would be comparatively the same or even stronger, respawning in the rust world until you find a way out would simply become an annoying roll of the dice until you get out. However making it so dying gets you out gives the option to simply strip your belongings and throw yourself upon the first enemies sword you see to get it over and done with. The solution, I feel, would be to make it gated. so at a certain point in the story you trigger a cataclysmic event that causes it to start happening so by that point you either have powerful weapons and armor or have so throughly cheesed the game that you are prepared for what comes next. Butagain doesn't stop you from just dying asap to be done with it. this idea needs some work.

My second idea is that given rifts from the rust world appear and disappear as they wish you could temporarily, for maybe 3-5 days, stabilize a rift to travel between the worlds at the cost of spawning more and stronger monsters around it as stabilization goes both ways. And then to avoid getting stuck there make a device (or make ot so you can find it in the rust dimension in case you forgot it) you can use to travel back. Dropping you maybe in a range of up to ~2000 blocks from wherever your spawn is set? (but using the same stabilized portal lets you get back to that stabilized portal) To keep it from becoming familiar theres the option that it drops you somewhere random in the rust world to keep you from making a base. (or regenerate an entirely new rust world to drop you in, though this might be taxing both for memory and processing so idk about that one) Or make the stabilized portal one use there and one use back to a random location. 

Another thing I think would help make it nit be some where familiar or comfortable would be to have either unique variants or unique enemies that play around conventional tactics. Strong enough that you cant build an entirely effective strategy against them. Basically if you play a lot of roguelikes (as I do, one must consider me happy) very often the final areas/levels/etc have enemies so powerful that even fully leveled and dripped out they still are punishing to fight and the slightest misstep is likely instant death. Though I do understand that some people don't hate themselves so this may not be the most user friendly idea. 

There is also the option (as the little spoilers I have heard the resonance archives are like this) to make it impossible to build or destroy in the rust world except maybe placing light (which only helps see as in the rust world it wouldn't stop spawning) though i do think this may hamper the exploration aspect.

A very big thing I think would be good is to make it so the map doesnt work in the rust world. The map is an essential tool that you cone to rely on and is quite important given that the game requires you to go long distances in order to acquire things. It is so important that taking it away may be enough to throw plans into disarray. 

Another idea to gate it, not so much to make it unfamiliar, is that given the fact that when temporal stability drops below 20%(? or 15%?) you take constant damage it isn't a leap to say that the atmosphere in the rust world is inadequate to support life as we know it. necessitating making specialized gear to journey through the rust world. As of current (that I know of) steel is the be all end all, however it could be a way to gate it that you need to make special titanium-steel alloy (I'm no metallurgist but I believe pure titanium is brittle and unfitting for armor) enviroment suit almost to simply be able to be in the rust world.

Though this idea can be taken further for the rust world to be more hostile and unwelcoming. lets say that inorder to withstand the atmosphere you need to build the enviroment suit/armor that takes up the armor slots the issue being that even with its stronger material the need for it to be encompassing and sealed means it only offers (just throwing a random number out here) 50% damage reduction. and since you need it to not die to the atmosphere it means that enemies you could kind of laugh at for doing like .07 damage to you are once again threatening and you have to be on your toes or perish. 

Idk all in all I'm just kind of spitballing and input would be helpful

[Maelstrom]

Welp...   Consider that the story of the game is inspired by Lovecraft.  And of all of his stories I only know of 2 instances where characters go into another dimension, and both of them are dream worlds while the bad stuff that happens come from alternate dimensions and causes havoc on some location of earth.  The devs are doing an absolutely amazing job of portraying Lovecraft in video game format.  So good that I'd swear Lovecraft himself is at least consulting on this project.  That said I would be dumbfoundedly shocked if the devs ever design travel to other dimensions into this game.

Read some Lovecraft (can be found online for free since it's public domain now) to get a better feel for the game.  I have found my appreciation for the game has grown immensely from doing so myself.

[Broccoli Clock]

This is with the caveat of someone who hasn't read a lot of Lovecraft, but isn't the "psychological horror" all about the existence of horrors in our own world? The Elders were terrestrial, and while things like Cthulhu came from a different dimension it made its way to Earth. Lovecraft's whole bit, to me, seems like trying to push on the fear of the thing just out of our periphery vision, the horrors that lurk behind the shadows, or the thalassophobic terror of massive sea beasts all unfolding in a world we all presumed was immutable, static and safe.

If that is the case, and VS is to continue to lean into it, then I'd probably suggest it's more likely that we'll see more Rust World visiting us, rather than us visiting it. The fear of the unknown, what else will reach through the void and enter our mundane and peaceful world? That would be slightly undone if you allowed people to travel there.

 

[Maelstrom]

Indeed Lovecrafts stories about the psychological horror of things on earth.  But all those things causing the psychological horror originated from another dimension and, usually, were on earth for a while before discovery.   Sometimes a human is the conduit of the psychological horror's presence on earth.  Lovecraft, like you said, hints at or describes things obliquely leaving our imagination to fill in the details of that thing, being or whatnot.

3 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

If that is the case, and VS is to continue to lean into it, then I'd probably suggest it's more likely that we'll see more Rust World visiting us, rather than us visiting it. The fear of the unknown, what else will reach through the void and enter our mundane and peaceful world? That would be slightly undone if you allowed people to travel there.

Exactly my thoughts as well.  One major trope of Mr. Lovecraft is that the people that go insane are the ones that clean up the mess.  Hopefully, we seraphs, don't go insane cleaning up Mr. Falx's mess.

[Trex_Crazy]

On 6/4/2025 at 10:36 AM, Maelstrom said:

Welp...   Consider that the story of the game is inspired by Lovecraft.  And of all of his stories I only know of 2 instances where characters go into another dimension, and both of them are dream worlds while the bad stuff that happens come from alternate dimensions and causes havoc on some location of earth.  The devs are doing an absolutely amazing job of portraying Lovecraft in video game format.  So good that I'd swear Lovecraft himself is at least consulting on this project.  That said I would be dumbfoundedly shocked if the devs ever design travel to other dimensions into this game.

Read some Lovecraft (can be found online for free since it's public domain now) to get a better feel for the game.  I have found my appreciation for the game has grown immensely from doing so myself.

Now firstly I am not saying they did a bad job by any means. And while it was a rarity for the characters to travel to other dimensions they most certainly existed (ie yog-sothoth) And I've read a great deal of Lovecraft and can ascertain that Lovecraft is not consulting on the gane otherwise it would be laden with racism at every opportunity.

[Broccoli Clock]

13 hours ago, Trex_Crazy said:

Lovecraft is not consulting on the game otherwise it would be laden with racism at every opportunity.

Yeah, Lovecraft was a pretty f*cking hateful person. Even for the time, he went the extra mile. It's why I know of his work but have read very little of it. 

 

 

[Tom Cantine]

I always found the Lovecraft concept of some incomprehensibly alien and thus "unwholesome" (one of his favorite adjectives) reality beyond human experience kind of intriguing, but it got seriously deflated when I learned that he used the same kind of language to describe plain old human beings from other countries. Kind of an unreliable narrator situation.

And a bit of a shame, too, because that eldritch-horror-from-beyond-space can be done well. But here's the catch: it must be done indirectly. That is, anything you encounter from the Beyond is going to be perceived through the medium available. For example, a "realistic" text description of a direct experience of the Beyond might be "fhoi7823 hfsw8e7RH^%nwyei", but that's not going to evoke any sense of horror. We just read it as a meaningless typo, or the author inadvertently pulling us out of immersion by reminding us that this is a text we're reading. The unspeakable horror must be conveyed in speakable words.

And that's why the Rust Dimension must never be a place we can visit, and why drifters and bowtorn and shivers will always only ever be mundane physical monsters for us to fight or flee. We're working within the medium of a computer game, so everything we encounter in game must be portrayed through that medium. The Lovecraftian horror of it must be implied; it literally cannot be depicted.

[Maelstrom]

On 6/9/2025 at 11:23 PM, Broccoli Clock said:

Yeah, Lovecraft was a pretty f*cking hateful person. Even for the time, he went the extra mile. It's why I know of his work but have read very little of it. 

His racism and hatred don't really come out in his stories.  It's a shame that people can't separate the man from his work and throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

[Tom Cantine]

2 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

His racism and hatred don't really come out in his stories.  It's a shame that people can't separate the man from his work and throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

Well, they actually DO come out in his stories, the most common form taken by Nyarlathotep, for example, but also more generally the kind of sensibilities he espouses as normal and wholesome and proper in contrast to the eldritch horrors. Knowing what I do about his personal biases just weakens the strength of his fiction for me. It's like if someone described the taste of garlic as "evil", and then warns you that some person you're about to meet is evil: does he mean they're genuinely malevolent, cruel, and dangerous, or does he just not like them? 

I did hear an interesting take on this once, though, that a good chunk of Lovecraft's horror is contempt for himself for being such a fragile and intolerant pathetic little being, an awareness that he himself (or the protagonists in his stories) is indelibly tainted with monstrosity. 

 

[Thorfinn]

Is it really that hard to accept that modern sensibilities do not map well into the past?

If the evolving moral system is valid, remember that future generations probably judge us as harshly as you do your ancestors. Over what? Who knows? We have the moral system we have now, not the one a century hence.

[Broccoli Clock]

10 hours ago, Maelstrom said:

His racism and hatred don't really come out in his stories.  It's a shame that people can't separate the man from his work and throw out the baby with the bathwater. 

Sorry but I completely disagree with both of those statements.

4 hours ago, Thorfinn said:

If the evolving moral system is valid, remember that future generations probably judge us as harshly as you do your ancestors. Over what? Who knows? We have the moral system we have now, not the one a century hence.

This is also not correct in regard to Lovecraft. Even in comparison to the times, he was a hateful person, intentionally so it seems.

Do I want this discussion to end with me posting a 5 page essay on just why Lovecraft was shitty, no, so I'll just leave it at the classic "agree to disagree" stance.

 

Now, the important thing, does that hate reflect upon the game? No, because it leans into the classic horror tropes that while Lovecraft could be seen as the figurehead of they certainly weren't the only proponent of. 

Edited June 12, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[Maelstrom]

6 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Now, the important thing, does that hate reflect upon the game? No, because it leans into the classic horror tropes that while Lovecraft could be seen as the figurehead of they certainly weren't the only proponent of. 

Thank you.  This is where I was trying to steer this conversation with my previous comment.  Lovecraft's personal life need not be discussed here (not because I agree with it, I don't) but it detracts from our enjoyment of the literary genre he fathered as portrayed in this game.

[Thorfinn]

Agreed, this board isn't really intended for that kind of discussion, and I did overlook it until people kept piling on.

Lovecraft just was late to move on. He typified a perfectly mainstream morality of a century or two before. As, I'd point out, you (second person plural) typify a perfectly mainstream morality of today. If there are no moral absolutes, your descendants a century or two hence will likely abhor you for the moral monster you represent to them. 

I concur that whatever personal views he may have had are not reflected in the game. Where I disagree is that I don't think it was reflected in his writing, either, other than to people trying to come up with a reason to... never mind.

Edited June 12, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Broccoli Clock]

45 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Agreed, this board isn't really intended for that kind of discussion..

..good sentiment, let's keep religion and politics out of it. 

So it's really disappointing that you post this..

45 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

He typified a perfectly mainstream morality of a century or two before. As, I'd point out, you (second person plural) typify a perfectly mainstream morality of today. 

..if you don't want people to expand on the topic, stop trying to claim that Lovecraft was just a bit kooky for the time but held totally normal views. I cannot overstate this, he was an avowed racist, even for the time. There is not a modern scholar that thinks differently. 

Edited June 12, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[Thorfinn]

Quote

..if you don't want people to expand on the topic, stop trying to claim that Lovecraft was just a bit kooky for the time but held totally normal views. I cannot overstate this, he was an avowed racist, even for the time. There is not a modern scholar that thinks differently. 

But doing it the other way around is peachy-keen? Make the argument, THEN say you don't want to discuss it?

7 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

This is also not correct in regard to Lovecraft. Even in comparison to the times, he was a hateful person, intentionally so it seems.

Do I want this discussion to end with me posting a 5 page essay on just why Lovecraft was shitty, no, so I'll just leave it at the classic "agree to disagree" stance.

And not just the other way around, but also dragging in the condemnation ("shitty") into your offer to drop it?

Edited June 12, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Broccoli Clock]

Just now, Thorfinn said:

But doing it the other way around is peachy-keen? Make the argument, THEN say you don't want to discuss it?

If you want to discuss it we can, but I am very wary of opening that Pandora's Box, and this really isn't the place for it. 

We can all agree that the game doesn't need to have an explicit tie to Lovecraft himself, which is good, and that's where the matter should probably end.

However, to claim he was just expressing view that were mainstream at the time is utterly wrong, and I'm sorry if being this absolute with my push back is causing a problem.
 

[Thorfinn]

There were members of the Supreme Court who were members of the KKK at the same time Lovecraft was around. We had a former high officer of the KKK ("Kleagle", I think) who was known as the "Conscience of the Senate" who died in office in 2010.

Or look at Birth of a Nation. The first film shown in the White House, to Wilson and his family, explicitly shows the Klan in a positive light. Or at least not a negative light. Definitely contemporary with Lovecraft.

Shoot, the Tuskegee Airmen thing was WWII, several years after Lovecraft was dead.

I'm not saying it's a good thing, just that it's not the kind of outlier you are trying to paint it to be.

Edited June 12, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Broccoli Clock]

14 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Oh, come on, man. There were members of the Supreme Court who were members of the KKK at the same time Lovecraft was around. We had a former high officer of the KKK ("Kleagle", I think) who was known as the "Conscience of the Senate" who died in office in 2010.

..and Lovecraft was born ~30 years after the civil war ended. What was that fought over and who won that? If I'm honest the, "my country was raw dogged by racism, it should be accepted", is not the win you think it is. It's also opening this up to comments about the current administration and that can only be the sort of "dumpster fire" territory that both of us want to avoid.

I'm not dismissing your point, the times were "unenlightened" to use an euphemism, but with him specifically I believe you are underplaying his hatefulness with anachronism. I'm not here to convince you of anything, I'm sure you are an intelligent and capable individual, but the evidence is very clear.

Either way, I doubt this exchange helps, and I am guilty of letting this get off topic, and for that I apologise. (Edit, in fact I'd be happy for the mods to just remove a section of this thread to "keep it more sanitary")

Edited June 12, 2025 by Broccoli Clock

[Thorfinn]

*Here's my opinion.*

*We shouldn't be talking about this.*

Fine. Your passive-aggressive approach speaks volumes. If you really wanted to just drop it, you would have.

Edited June 12, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Broccoli Clock]

2 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

*Here's my opinion.*

*We shouldn't be talking about this.*

Fine. Your passive-aggressive approach speaks volumes. If you really wanted to just drop it, you would have.

I'm coming across as passive aggressive to you because I am nervous of where it could take us, that's all. 

[Thorfinn]

That's just silly. Do you really believe I'm trying to sell people on racism? Even if I were, do you think there's a snowball's chance in hell?

You will note, again, that I left it alone until the record absolutely had to be corrected. Falsehoods for the right cause are still falsehoods.

[EDIT]

But the larger point is just that from our vantage point in 2025, we have absolutely no idea what ideas we hold that people will call "unenlightened" in a century.

Edited June 12, 2025 by Thorfinn

[Broccoli Clock]

1 minute ago, Thorfinn said:

Do you really believe I'm trying to sell people on racism? 

Whoa, whoa, whoa... is that what you think? If so, then I can understand why you are annoyed, but let me be very clear here, I am absolutely not accusing you of that. I think your take on Lovecraft is wrong, but that's it. There is no suggestion you are somehow a flag waving supporter of bigotry, and I have no evidence what so ever to base such a crazy claim on.

[Thorfinn]

30 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Whoa, whoa, whoa... is that what you think? If so, then I can understand why you are annoyed, but let me be very clear here, I am absolutely not accusing you of that.

No, it's not what I think. I was just trying to make sense out of, 

43 minutes ago, Broccoli Clock said:

I am nervous of where it could take us

What would make one nervous about noting that there was under a decade between Tuskegee Airmen and Brown v. Board of Education?  And another decade between that and the Civil Rights Act? That we could in a single generation abandon what you are calling "unenlightened" ideas, ideas which formerly were mainstream, speaks volumes about how rapidly morality can change. And should be a cautionary tale for anyone who thinks he epitomizes "true" morality. The future will revile you as surely as you revile the past. We just don't know exactly what they will find offensive.

[Maelstrom]

6 hours ago, Broccoli Clock said:

I am nervous of where it could take us

Here's what you do @Broccoli Clock - stop posting.  Stop responding to others.   Just let this diseased drifter die.

I suggest EVERYONE let this comment be the last in this thread.  Let it slip to the second page where it will be forgotten...   and die.