Still broken bears (before 1.20 and after) [deprecated]

[Ven]

UPD: my own overlook with tiers, didn't figure out how to delete the topic so leave it edited as is.

I've been playing VS a lot for the last few years as it was progressing through versions, and bears still remain a blind spot of the overall game balance. I'm going to write down all my thoughts so it might take a while..
All that stated is said for Wilderness Survival difficulty, on normal it becomes even sadder.
First of all, before 1.20 bears used to be the main "natural" threat to the seraphs, and they remained the deadly threat until your very last day out there. You could wear the best armor possible (blackguard\forlorn), carry best honey poultices, carry steel falx and best shield you could make, yet an encounter with a grizzly or even worse, polar bear will end up in a mortal duel where you both have more or less equal chances to survive with a few health points. That was not because the bears back then hit "that hard", but because they had (and still have!) ridiculously broken hitboxes that you miss with the melee weapon 80% of times. The bear would just soak you up inside its large body and poke to death as ALL of its hits reached you, unlike yours.

Despite that, the weird perk of those things worked well for the class ballance between Hunter and Blackguard classes. Both are combat-related classes but with mutually exclusive abilities - hunters thrive where blackguard will suffer, and vise versa. And playing Blackguard most of the time I can definitely tell that bears were the main reason I digged many kilometers of tunnels under taiga forests instead of paving a surface road(except for -40C in winter) That was also the reason bows and spears were the only effective weapon against bears, because of mentioned hitboxes.

Before 1.20 bears had attack tier 4 which was very realistic in terms of damage and armor ruining but higher attack tiers also have a heavy knockback (often way too heavy!) launching you flying 10m away in full plate armor. The problem is that the armor weight does not reduce the knockback from heavy attacks and it really should be done with, that's a common problem related to all creatures.

After 1.20, as new dangerous mobs were introduced, as I assumed to not make players suffer too much, bear attack tier was nerfed from 4 to 2, which rendered bears literally harmless not depending on the difficulty. Same attack tier as wolves..? Yes, the bears were a menace because of mix of broken hitboxes, ABSOLUTE SILENCE, overly aggressive behavior and surreal knockback, but just lowering the attack tier is not the way how it should be fixed.

Here's my list of points how bears can find their place in Vintage Story world at last:
1) They are absolutely silent!
Yes, they do growls sometimes, but when you walk down the forest harvesting logs and step accidentally on grizzly's tail, because when sleeping they are impossible to notice (and it kept ignoring you after that because ate some rabbit an hour ago and not hungry!) scaring you to death;
Or when you walk in the plain all-white chalk-covered hill with a clear line of sight and a white bear backstabs you out of nowhere the next second, without any single sound, you start to wonder how a 500kg meatbag possess ninja skills?
2) Their behavior most of the time is a blunt aggression
VS bears might completely ignore you when fed, or be only self-defensive when you come too close; otherwise their only pattern is to chase and attack, like a brainless mob. Their behavior is not affected by the seasons, as it heavily does affect the real-world bears (I'm not a super expert though)
3) They have to stay the highest nature threat until and after very end-game, of the same level as double-headed and nightmare drifters. Their attack before 1.20 was just enough to feel the menace, but hitboxes made them impossible to fight with without ranged weapons

Any additions and thoughts are appreciated!

Edited June 26, 2025 by Ven
..

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Ven said:

Before 1.20 bears had attack tier 4 which

I'm not sure this is accurate. I started playing in 1.18, and as I recall bears were tier 2 then, and in 1.19 as well. I also don't recall any patch notes for 1.20 stating that the attack tier for bears had been changed.

3 hours ago, Ven said:

Despite that, the weird perk of those things worked well for the class ballance between Hunter and Blackguard classes. Both are combat-related classes but with mutually exclusive abilities - hunters thrive where blackguard will suffer, and vise versa. And playing Blackguard most of the time I can definitely tell that bears were the main reason I digged many kilometers of tunnels under taiga forests instead of paving a surface road(except for -40C in winter) That was also the reason bows and spears were the only effective weapon against bears, because of mentioned hitboxes.

I agree that Hunters thrive where Blackguards do not, and vice versa. However, I disagree that Blackguards have trouble dealing with bears. I play Blackguard most of the time and my strategy is to kite them around with a sword and shield. Wearing armor is ideal, but also optional--it's possible to face them without armor and survive. Throwing a few spears at them before engaging in melee can soften them up, but I don't like using spears in melee as it seems to make the hitbox issue worse due to the weapon's reach.

3 hours ago, Ven said:

they had (and still have!) ridiculously broken hitboxes that you miss with the melee weapon 80% of times. The bear would just soak you up inside its large body and poke to death as ALL of its hits reached you, unlike yours.

This is the main problem with bears in my experience, aside from a lack of readily noticeable sound cues. If you kite in a tight circle, the problem is somewhat alleviated, but it still makes for a frustrating fight if the bear manages to just sit on you(even if that is rather realistic for a bear's combat ability).

3 hours ago, Ven said:

3) They have to stay the highest nature threat until and after very end-game, of the same level as double-headed and nightmare drifters. Their attack before 1.20 was just enough to feel the menace, but hitboxes made them impossible to fight with without ranged weapons

"Highest nature threat" depends entirely on what part of the world you decided to live in. Hippos have been teased, and if I'm not mistaken hippos are absolutely one of the most dangerous animals known to man, if not the most dangerous, and kill several many people per year. I would certainly expect them to be a lot more dangerous than bears when implemented, though they'll be a threat unique to the tropical regions.

3 hours ago, Ven said:

2) Their behavior most of the time is a blunt aggression
VS bears might completely ignore you when fed, or be only self-defensive when you come too close; otherwise their only pattern is to chase and attack, like a brainless mob. Their behavior is not affected by the seasons, as it heavily does affect the real-world bears (I'm not a super expert though)

There may be a lore reason for why natural predators are so aggressive, however, I would say it's mostly due to creature behaviors still being a work in progress. I'm also not sure that players should be encouraged to feed the local bear population, unless there's a way to acquire a bear as a pet. In reality, if you start feeding a wild bear, it's going to associate people with food and start causing a lot of problems, and I'm not sure that would make for very fun gameplay.

Edited June 25, 2025 by LadyWYT
Grammar

[Ven]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I'm not sure this is accurate. I started playing in 1.18, and as I recall bears were tier 2 then, and in 1.19 as well. I also don't recall any patch notes for 1.20 stating that the attack tier for bears had been changed.

That is strange.. I cannot find patch notes either. And checked files in previous versions too. Tier 2 indeed.. But I definitely felt the difference once 1.20 got released, like they started to deal 2-3 times less damage. Maybe because blackguard shield got buffed, or I just became that used to deal with them eventually

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

"Highest nature threat" depends entirely on what part of the world you decided to live in. Hippos have been teased, and if I'm not mistaken hippos are absolutely one of the most dangerous animals known to man, if not the most dangerous, and kill several many people per year. I would certainly expect them to be a lot more dangerous than bears when implemented, though they'll be a threat unique to the tropical regions.

As long as no other fauna is included by the devs, yes. At very least they have to be more dangerous than wolves in the temperate/northern climate.

 

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I agree that Hunters thrive where Blackguards do not, and vice versa. However, I disagree that Blackguards have trouble dealing with bears. I play Blackguard most of the time and my strategy is to kite them around with a sword and shield. Wearing armor is ideal, but also optional--it's possible to face them without armor and survive. Throwing a few spears at them before engaging in melee can soften them up, but I don't like using spears in melee as it seems to make the hitbox issue worse due to the weapon's reach.

That's why I mentioned Survival difficulty, on normal they are quite manageable either way but on survival even fully equipped for melee combat you will likely leave from the encounter with less than 50% hp left (if you had all 27 from nutrition) and many wasted poultices and nerves. But that is why it makes forests so unwalkable at first place and that's why Hunters are called Hunters so I think it's ok

[ShadowsEdge]

Um, my 2 cents is that bears are perfect.
In real life, you see a bear, you run, pray, pee, poop all at the SAME TIME. You see someone hunting bear with a sword or spear, you call the funny farm and tell them one of their guys got loose, to bring the leather jacket then place him back in the asylum.

I catch bears, regularly with bear pits & traps in VS. No way in VS am I ever gonna try and duel 1, that's crazy talk. I am a bit disappointed that I can outrun a bear but that bear meat is tasty!

To me, bears are very realistic. Ive seen them swipe at rabbits, chickens, deer and gobble them up in VS. If there were tigers, Id do the same but I'd expect tigers to be smarter and avoid pit traps and hide in trees. If there were lions... Id move to the cold cold north for safety.

But hey, if they make them dual able... im gonna be disappointed.

[LadyWYT]

16 hours ago, ShadowsEdge said:

I am a bit disappointed that I can outrun a bear

Depends on the bear. Black bears, sun bears, and panda bears you can outrun. Brown bears you can outrun IF you react quickly enough and it gets stuck in the brush/terrain. I think polar bears are supposed to be a bit faster than brown bears, though I can't say for certain, but if it's white you'll probably say goodnight quickly.

16 hours ago, ShadowsEdge said:

If there were tigers, Id do the same but I'd expect tigers to be smarter and avoid pit traps and hide in trees.

Fauna of the Stone Age has a module that adds tigers, lions, and other big cats. They don't hide in the trees, but they're very fast and will stalk you. You won't be outrunning one of them if it decides to attack.

16 hours ago, ShadowsEdge said:

If there were lions... Id move to the cold cold north for safety.

Not with the FotSA mod you won't, unless maybe you move to the arctic or otherwise disable certain spawns. Steppe and American lions(extinct in the present day) will spawn in colder climates. Tigers will spawn in colder climates as well, though I'm not sure if they spawn in the arctic or not. Siberian tigers are built for the cold, though the mod doesn't make a distinction between tiger species currently(to my knowledge), so the mod may or may not spawn them in extremely cold regions as well.

[DFlux]

On 6/25/2025 at 7:40 PM, ShadowsEdge said:

Um, my 2 cents is that bears are perfect.
In real life, you see a bear, you run, pray, pee, poop all at the SAME TIME. You see someone hunting bear with a sword or spear, you call the funny farm and tell them one of their guys got loose, to bring the leather jacket then place him back in the asylum.

I catch bears, regularly with bear pits & traps in VS. No way in VS am I ever gonna try and duel 1, that's crazy talk. I am a bit disappointed that I can outrun a bear but that bear meat is tasty!

To me, bears are very realistic. Ive seen them swipe at rabbits, chickens, deer and gobble them up in VS. If there were tigers, Id do the same but I'd expect tigers to be smarter and avoid pit traps and hide in trees. If there were lions... Id move to the cold cold north for safety.

But hey, if they make them dual able... im gonna be disappointed.

I've personally nothing with the current power of bears, but instead I have an issue with how FREQUENT the damn things are.

Anytime its forest area, I seem to encounter bears about a third as frequently as I encounter wolves.  Sometimes in fact I end up encountering more BEARS than wolves!  Which because the only good solution to them early on before your sporting full metal armor is trapping them in a pit, that practically means digging one up every 100-150 blocks distance whenever you even remotely suspect bears are in the area, because you have to be able to reach the bear trap pit in time before it inevitably kills you due to being FASTER than you.

It also creates a class imbalance imo:  only hunters and clockmakers can reliably outrun bears from what i've seen so far thanks to fleet footed.  With bears being THAT frequent, that makes those two classes vastly superior to the other classes due to the insane frequency that bears spawn.

My hunters world (about 200 hours, took 150 to find iron) had bears all over the place and my progress was stalled thanks to that and not being aware of just how quick the hunter was.  My blackguards world(About 60-ish horus atm) also had them, and I ended up feeling the blackguard to be inferior inspite any advantages purely due to the prevelant frequency i'd constantly encounter bears everywhere even though I set forests to -25% purely because of how frequently i encountered bears on my hunter.  It makes me think hunter is better, again, PURELY because they can better deal with bears.

Bears are what tv tropes calls a "Demonic spider": An enemy overpowered and prevelent, so much so, the whole game and all gameplay ends up revolving around them.  They are faster than you, take twenty arrows(yes, 20, if your stupid enough to use the crude bow+crude arrow like I did), about 20 hits from a stone spear from a blackguard(if its a brown bear), can take you down in 5-6 hits when your in leather armor, 2 hits without armor(or even 1 if its a lunge attack), and they spawn with such high frequency that they are just punishing for newer players like, well, me. 

[maxwelljensen]

On 8/3/2025 at 3:10 AM, DFlux said:

I've personally nothing with the current power of bears, but instead I have an issue with how FREQUENT the damn things are.

Same. Set up in a third world in a row, only to find out that the shelter I built in the plains is in a food wasteland, surrounded by dozens of wolves and bears, all of which will immediately begin chasing you without making a sound. I guess it would have been alright if there was a way of detecting them before you aggro them, but even at full sprint towards your character they don't make a single sound. Really not good. They also refuse to back out of a fight no matter how much you hurt them, which is also not great. Maybe I'll come back to the game after they revisit this part.

Edited August 14, 2025 by maxwelljensen

[williams_482]

Bears and Wolves will usually turn and run once they are badly injured, but it takes some serious work for a stone age seraph to pull that off. They will also run if they take damage but cannot immediately reach you, so one strategy is to pillar four blocks in the air and throw rocks or spears at them to chase them off. 

 

The only permanent solution is to lure them into a pit (four blocks deep for bears, five for wolves) with a permanent light source and just leave them there forever. Which isn't terribly difficult, especially if you're willing to die a few times in the process. 

[Krougal]

I find the bears a lot easier in the latest versions.

Considering the new armor is rather nice for early game, I do go looking for trouble.

If you get them in pits, you should definitely kill them like fish in a barrel, there is no shame in it.

Hunting is not about fair play or sportsmanship when you are trying to survive.

Speaking of the lack of audio warning, https://mods.vintagestory.at/noisybears is a great mod.

[DFlux]

12 hours ago, Krougal said:

I find the bears a lot easier in the latest versions.

Considering the new armor is rather nice for early game, I do go looking for trouble.

If you get them in pits, you should definitely kill them like fish in a barrel, there is no shame in it.

Hunting is not about fair play or sportsmanship when you are trying to survive.

Speaking of the lack of audio warning, https://mods.vintagestory.at/noisybears is a great mod.

And if the RNG says no lime sources or borax and huge forests in all directions?  Actually haven't played the new version yet.

I usually do the same though I just setup pits everywhere that i'm remotely near forests, anywhere that bears could potentially sneak up on me.

 

14 hours ago, williams_482 said:

Bears and Wolves will usually turn and run once they are badly injured, but it takes some serious work for a stone age seraph to pull that off. They will also run if they take damage but cannot immediately reach you, so one strategy is to pillar four blocks in the air and throw rocks or spears at them to chase them off. 

 

The only permanent solution is to lure them into a pit (four blocks deep for bears, five for wolves) with a permanent light source and just leave them there forever. Which isn't terribly difficult, especially if you're willing to die a few times in the process. 

I may have to try putting oil lamps in pits I guess, though I often also like the hides so leaving the things alive isn't 'that' convenient either.  My latest world in fact bears spawn very close to my home, so I litterally just lead them into the pit after saying a quick "WHY HALO THAR!"(my battlecry for I KNOW I WILL WIN AND YOU WILL DIE!) and then wearing it down with repeat spear stabs.  I actually encountered more bears than wolves so far though.  That its actually lead to the bears becoming trivial to deal with.  It's become predictable and the majority of my leather in fact has been from bears due to a lack of any other animals in the area(this also lead to a lack of animal fat though, bears aren't able to provide enough by themselves).

[Krougal]

You can setup narrow passes too.

Just today I had a bear come over by my cementation furnace, which is right outside my door and 1 block away.

I just peppered him with arrows from there. Doesn't get much better than hunting from your own back porch.

[Entaris]

19 minutes ago, Krougal said:

You can setup narrow passes too.

Just today I had a bear come over by my cementation furnace, which is right outside my door and 1 block away.

I just peppered him with arrows from there. Doesn't get much better than hunting from your own back porch.

I see your porch and raise you Hunting From the Swimming Pool.

Bears cannot attack/look down whilst swimming. Me and my copper spear simply reenacted JAWS and then went back to fishing.

[Bruno Willis]

Bears are a learning curve I think. Once you figure them out, you avoid them like the plague, unless you've got a very good advantage.

I'd love to see them get a life that's not just about murder. I feel like seeing them sharpening their claws on trees, and moving from scratched tree to scratched tree, protecting their territory would be really interesting. It would also let you figure out where they live and where not to go.

As an added bonus, bears scratching pine trees could be a mechanic to produce new resin logs, with the added bonus that the resin would come with a territorial bear guardian. 

[Phantom72]

Also, just don't fix their inability to climb trees.