Propick practicality.

[Jeremy McArthur]

So I understand the mechanics of the pro pick, get samples show results. what I'm looking for is how does that work practically. So I'm told that it takes the sample in an area of "one chunk", what size is a chunk? Also I'm told that the sample is for underneath you? Is that true and how far down? 

I'm asking because other than surface ore and dumb luck in caves (which almost never happens) I cant seem to find much and want to learn how to find what I need to get past the copper age. 

Thanks Gents.

[redram]

12 hours ago, Jeremy McArthur said:

So I understand the mechanics of the pro pick, get samples show results. what I'm looking for is how does that work practically. So I'm told that it takes the sample in an area of "one chunk", what size is a chunk? Also I'm told that the sample is for underneath you? Is that true and how far down?

A VS chunk is 32x32.   The sample takes the entire column into consideration, as far as I'm aware.   But be aware that some ores have y limits, so they don't spawn above a certain height.  The propick takes this into consideration too.

[Jeremy McArthur]

Awesome this will help a lot. Also is the chunk centered around the sample or are chunks static things, as in part of the world gen. I'm just thinking if they are static, and if i'm on the very edge of a chunk 32 blocks makes a big difference  

[Kaelty]

46 minutes ago, Jeremy McArthur said:

Awesome this will help a lot. Also is the chunk centered around the sample or are chunks static things, as in part of the world gen. I'm just thinking if they are static, and if i'm on the very edge of a chunk 32 blocks makes a big difference  

if they are static that would make the pro pick interesting to use as you could change into another chunk while using it. would it give results based on both chunks? or would it give only info based on the chunk you started at? maybe in the chunk you ended or the chunk where 2 of the 3 samples were taken?

[Jeremy McArthur]

Ohhhh good point  

[redram]

2 hours ago, Jeremy McArthur said:

Also is the chunk centered around the sample or are chunks static things, as in part of the world gen. I'm just thinking if they are static, and if i'm on the very edge of a chunk 32 blocks makes a big difference  

Ok so here's a more technical explanation.   Upon world gen, an 'ore map' is generated for every ore, at the resolution of 1 pixel = 1 chunk.  This is similar to the noise maps that make up terrain gen (except terrain noise maps are 1 pixel = 1 block).   When you use the propick, The sample readings are based on the *first* of the 3 samples.   The location of the subsequent two samples have no effect on readings, they're just the gateways to actually obtain a reading.  Now, you may have noticed that readings change even from block to block slightly, sometimes.  This is because the propick is interpolating on a weighted block-by-block basis, between the chunk the sample is in, and the neighboring chunks. 

So, the propick, to be clear, is not actually scanning a chunk-size volume - that would be too processor-intensive.   It simply uses formulas that assume a chunk-sized footprint of solid rock, and references the ore maps, which are at a chunk-size scale.   It does not account for caves or bodies of water.  It just assumes solid rock.   But it also does not account for changes in the rock profile across a chunk (the 'waviness' of the profile).   The first sample scans that entire column of blocks, figures out the percent of that single column that is X Y or Z stone type, compares that against ores possible in that stone type, multiplies by the factor of the ore map, converts it to permille, and that's your result.

[Jeremy McArthur]

Thank you...

[Gazz]

I, too, am trying to make sense of what the propick says. (I am familiar with noise maps, especially ones that generate ore in games / random maps)

Now here I scanned (first hit) what I think is the middle of the chunk. 624/80, which would be 16 from 608/64, which is divisible by 32.

I did find 6 blocks of copper ore that were sticking out a cave wall but that was it. I have gone through a copper pick digging up and down and have not found any more.

Now the propick said

I read this output as a massive "21.5% chance per block of stone" so I would expect it to be everywhere around me.

If an actual column is evaluated for the percentage, that would mean that (supposedly deeper down) there would have to be an almost solid chunk of copper, right?

[Kaelty]

34 minutes ago, Gazz said:

I, too, am trying to make sense of what the propick says. (I am familiar with noise maps, especially ones that generate ore in games / random maps)

Now here I scanned (first hit) what I think is the middle of the chunk. 624/80, which would be 16 from 608/64, which is divisible by 32.

I did find 6 blocks of copper ore that were sticking out a cave wall but that was it. I have gone through a copper pick digging up and down and have not found any more.

Now the propick said

I read this output as a massive "21.5% chance per block of stone" so I would expect it to be everywhere around me.

If an actual column is evaluated for the percentage, that would mean that (supposedly deeper down) there would have to be an almost solid chunk of copper, right?

the propick only show the "chance" of stuff beeing there. it's completly possible that the chunk is empty. you could mine all but 3 blocks and the bedrock and the propick would still say the same (if i understood the explanation from the youtube video correctly)

[Gazz]

Yes, 2 basic ways to see this.
The chance of the ore being there as a binary. In this case it would be true because I had found a tiny amount of it.

I cannot believe that this is the design because showing a 20% chance for a single block of ore (or 5 =)) to be present in the entire chunk isn't much of a feature.

The other way around the value is derived from a noise function and then it sounds more like a distribution / weight value, as in "20% of the blocks are this ore".
And yes, this shape could again be cropped by another layer of noise so my problem is still that I'm throwing darts in the dark and the propick shows a value that does in no way represent actual findings.
I will keep digging there but this is confusing.

[Kaelty]

26 minutes ago, Gazz said:

Yes, 2 basic ways to see this.
The chance of the ore being there as a binary. In this case it would be true because I had found a tiny amount of it.

I cannot believe that this is the design because showing a 20% chance for a single block of ore (or 5 =)) to be present in the entire chunk isn't much of a feature.

The other way around the value is derived from a noise function and then it sounds more like a distribution / weight value, as in "20% of the blocks are this ore".
And yes, this shape could again be cropped by another layer of noise so my problem is still that I'm throwing darts in the dark and the propick shows a value that does in no way represent actual findings.
I will keep digging there but this is confusing.

ahhh i think you missed something. the propick does not show % there is an extra 0 behind right? And i think it's the first but not with 1 block but an whole vein.

but we could talk endlessly, try this tutorial. maybe you will get an idea of it then.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Kaelty

[Gazz]

You're right. I missed that 0.
Only true nerds ever use that one.

That's going to confuse quite a few. Any reason why you're not using 2.1% instead of 21.5‰ ?

Oh, I saw that video but it really only explains what to click. It doesn't go into the distribution function and what the number actually means.
The written version in your wiki is more detailed (and quicker) at explaining that.

Edited March 13, 2020 by Gazz

[redram]

As Kaelty pointed out, the propick is giving you per-mille readings (‰), not per-cent.  Per-mille is per-thousand ('mille' is French for 1000).  Per-cent is per hundred (cent = centum = 100).  The propick is telling you that out of every 1000 blocks in the area, you might expect (in the case of your copper reading) 21.5 to be copper ore.  Might expect - it's only a chance, not a guarantee.  There are over 112,000 blocks in a given chunk from sea level to mantle (32x32x110).   Are there actually 2,350 blocks of copper in that chunk?  I don't know, I've not done that detailed an analysis.  That does seem like a rather high number.   But, copper deposits are one of the largest.  The important thing though is that *relatively* speaking, you have a better chance there than about anywhere else.    If there's any caves at all in the area, you'd probably be ahead to go cave diving.

But in any case, don't get too hung up on the notion of searching only within precise chunk boundaries.  The ore maps should be somewhat smooth.  It's not going to be ultra-high in once chunk and very poor in the next.

 

2 hours ago, Gazz said:

That's going to confuse quite a few. Any reason why you're not using 2.1% instead of 21.5‰ ? 

I didn't write the code, but given that the vast majority of samples are in the single digits and lower, you would end up mostly saying 0.2% or even 0.02%.   Which isn't great for calculating either.  

 

 

 

 

[Kaelty]

51 minutes ago, redram said:

I didn't write the code, but given that the vast majority of samples are in the single digits and lower, you would end up mostly saying 0.2% or even 0.02%.   Which isn't great for calculating either. 

some might go even a whole digit lower than 0.02% depends on the material (gems for example)

and thats just a guess but i think that caves are generated after ores, so in worst case scenario some veins will get erased by them. I draw that conclusion due to the fact(in my world at least) that copper deposits found in cavewalls almost allways are smaller than the ones found through surface deposits where you dig down after finding some on the surface. those are bigger because (and thats only my hypothesis) there are no ore blocks beeing deleted by the cave generation. Same goes for ravines although those are rare.

Edited March 14, 2020 by Kaelty

[Gazz]

9 hours ago, redram said:

But in any case, don't get too hung up on the notion of searching only within precise chunk boundaries.  The ore maps should be somewhat smooth.  It's not going to be ultra-high in once chunk and very poor in the next.

Yes, I can see how the % value moves up and down between different prospecting sites and haven't even found the center of highest concentration, yet. I need a lot more picks for that. =P

That said, I just kept digging down - a lot - and eventually found more and more copper so the % value does indeed look more like a density or distribution value instead of a binary chance of copper being there or not (as had also been suggested).

[redram]

Right, so here's a bit more info; each ore gets a certain number of 'tries' to generate a vein, per chunk. So copper might be 20 for instance. If that were the number, that means in each chunk, the game will make 20 attempts to generate a vein of copper. I'm not sure if the tries are made uniformly distributed throughout the entire world height of the chunk, or just from some y level down, or what exactly. But:
- If a try attempts to generate a vein at a point and it is thin air, that's a failure.
- If it attempts to generate at a point, and the stone at that point is not a valid stone to host that ore, that's a failure.
- If it attempts to generate at a point, and that point is outside the y limits for that ore to generate, that's a failure.
- If the attempt is in stone, *and* it's a valid stone, AND it's within the y limits of that ore, then it checks against a percent chance based on the ore map. IF that percent check is a success, and all those other conditions are met, then a vein is generated.

The propick takes all these things into account, plus the average size of the vein, and uses all that to generate an average number of blocks per thousand that might be that ore.

[SonOfTarg]

Hi. You said, there is a special y level for each ore type. Can I find a list about that somewhere? And is there a way to pinpoint my exactly position on the map ( x, y and ž coordinates plus what chunk I'm in)?

[redram]

I believe the V key pops up coords under the minimap?  It's in the controls configuration list.   There's a way to show chunks, I don't know it offhand.  It doesn't matter for propicking purposes though.  The wiki has a list of descrptions (including y levels) of ore deposits:

https://wiki.vintagestory.at/index.php?title=Ore_Deposits

[SonOfTarg]

Ok, Thanks. I saw the lists before, but didn't know how to read them. Still figure out how the game works.;)