Power Creep

[Diff]

1 hour ago, Bomboclaat said:

Dude. Just in case you didn't know there's a command you can do in the in game chat to end yourself and end your ordeal early "/kill". If you're trapped underground in complete and utter darkness thats the only thing you can do really.

Ah I'm too stubborn for that, and it was early enough that I hadn't yet found a temporal gear to set my spawn point on that server. I eventually broke out of my grave and into the open ocean. Full on Rust World waiting for me outside, but I did drag myself home alive with my copper.

[Thorfinn]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

I do not think the overall genre even has stability mechanics so I am unclear

No, it does not. Thus how VS's approach deviates from the genre. Something different you haven't seen before. Like it or not, it's not the same old, same old.

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

Nor am I clear on how people can build anywhere they like in VS with stability on.

Well, you can, but you pay a price. You lose stability when you are home. Which is not a deal-breaker for me. I'm pretty much only home when planting, harvesting and smithing.

But my point was, again, VS is different than the herd in this respect, too. Whether you like the idea or not, it's different.

Edited September 6, 2025 by Thorfinn

[LadyWYT]

3 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

Well, you can, but you pay a price. You lose stability when you are home.

Hence why I mentioned adding some piece of late-game tech that counteracts the instability. That way players can choose to pay that price upfront if they find a spot they absolutely have to settle in, but can fix the issue later on once they've made enough progress.

[CastIronFabric]

27 minutes ago, Thorfinn said:

No, it does not. Thus how VS's approach deviates from the genre. Something different you haven't seen before. Like it or not, it's not the same old, same old.

Well, you can, but you pay a price. You lose stability when you are home. Which is not a deal-breaker for me. I'm pretty much only home when planting, harvesting and smithing.

But my point was, again, VS is different than the herd in this respect, too. Whether you like the idea or not, it's different.

sorry but this feels all over the map and I am still not crystal clear.

regardless, I like I expressed earlier I really really do not like the stability mechanics and never play with it on and I never will other than on someone elses server.

 

[CastIronFabric]

24 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Hence why I mentioned adding some piece of late-game tech that counteracts the instability. That way players can choose to pay that price upfront if they find a spot they absolutely have to settle in, but can fix the issue later on once they've made enough progress.

that is basically in Xskills to some degree.

Anyway, I am not having any of it. If I see a cool spot, I am building there so I just turn that feature off.

[Echo Weaver]

On 9/6/2025 at 10:48 AM, LadyWYT said:

If something were to change about the current implementation of temporal stability though, I'd keep it as-is, but add a piece of Jonas tech to counteract the chunk instability. That way temporal stability still poses a concern in the earlier portion of the game, but you could still settle in whatever spot you like and have something else to work towards in the late game. It also gives more options for what to spend your gears and Jonas parts on, which is sorely needed.

This seems like a great suggestion for vanilla, honestly. Did somebody mod such an item? I would install it.

On 9/6/2025 at 10:50 AM, LadyWYT said:

You don't even have to wait for that--someone did it with a mod: https://mods.vintagestory.at/shivertweaks

Not only does it allow shivers to actually climb, but it makes the bellhead ones function similar to their namesake.

I remember reading threads when shivers were in release candidates that made me think shivers COULD climb but could not climb fences. They can't? I've been probably making unnecessary fortifications in my base. 

On 9/6/2025 at 11:43 AM, Diff said:

accidentally extinguished my torch while exploring, leaving me unprepared in the dark surrounded by quartz I couldn't mine, trying to wall myself off from monsters in the dark, and chipping away at any quartzless stone I could feel around for, hoping to break into the ocean before I starved to death, before my last pick broke, and before a monster either wandered past my barricades or just spawned behind them with me with help from my exhausted temporal stability.

This is why my contingency plans have contingency plans. I'm not crazy about combat, but I want a bunch of crazy risks to mitigate. When I was torch-dependent, I carried around an oil lamp just in case I fell into water and extinguished my torch. Now that I have a lantern, I'm still carrying around torches AND that old oil lamp for no apparent reason except that it serves as a security blanket. I mean, what if I accidentally throw away my lantern AND fall in water and extinguish my torch? What if??

I also carry around at least a stack of rope ladder so I can get myself out of pits if I fall in. And extra food. And a stack of dirt to use for improvisational fortifications if I get into an area where the rust beasts are out of my league. I now use a mining bag because otherwise I wouldn't leave enough inventory space to mine anything.

Hush. I know I have a problem.

[LadyWYT]

19 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

This seems like a great suggestion for vanilla, honestly. Did somebody mod such an item? I would install it.

To my knowledge, no, no one has modded something like this. The closest I've seen is this: https://mods.vintagestory.at/chunkstaboverride

That mod seems to rely on console commands, rather than in-game survival tech.

20 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

I remember reading threads when shivers were in release candidates that made me think shivers COULD climb but could not climb fences. They can't? I've been probably making unnecessary fortifications in my base. 

They can technically climb, but it's not proper climbing like what locusts do. Climbing in the shiver sense means that they're able to navigate heights up to two blocks, so it's more like bear/elk/bighorn style climbing.

[CastIronFabric]

18 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

To my knowledge, no, no one has modded something like this. The closest I've seen is this: https://mods.vintagestory.at/chunkstaboverride

That mod seems to rely on console commands, rather than in-game survival tech.

They can technically climb, but it's not proper climbing like what locusts do. Climbing in the shiver sense means that they're able to navigate heights up to two blocks, so it's more like bear/elk/bighorn style climbing.

Xskills allow you to nearly become immune to Temporal Stability by exposing yourself to instability. Once that skill is maxed you can live in a area that is unstable

The problem I have with the concept of very late game solution to Temporal Stability is because by that time your base will already be finished. 'Great! I can now finally build a base in that location I saw 200 hours ago but now I if I build a base I have nothing to do with it other than to look at how pretty it is'

Edited September 10, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

Xskills allow you to nearly become immune to Temporal Stability by exposing yourself to instability. Once that skill is maxed you can live in a area that is unstable

Ah yeah, forgot about that mod.

 

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

The problem I have with the concept of very late game solution to Temporal Stability is because by that time your base will already be finished. 'Great! I can now finally build a base in that location I saw 200 hours ago but now I if I build a base I have nothing to do with it other than to look at how pretty it is'

Well the general idea was that a player would just build wherever they wanted at the start, and then fix the stability later once reaching the appropriate tech.

[CastIronFabric]

3 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

 

Well the general idea was that a player would just build wherever they wanted at the start, and then fix the stability later once reaching the appropriate tech.

So let me make sure I understand because its common for me to get my understanding wrong.

First step would be to build in an unstable area and then 100+ hours later one would fix the stability.

So my question would be, if you can live for 100+ hours in an unstable base why would you feel the need to fix the stability later?

 

Edited September 10, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Echo Weaver]

Well, I'm on my second base at late-midgame, and I could completely imagine building a new superbase in late game. It seems like the late game temporal stability fixer would be for that situation. 

I feel the same way about the rift ward. I already don't have much interest in bothering with blocking rift formation around my base, and I haven't collected enough jonas parts to assemble anything. RIft wards consume temporal gears too, I think.

What I'd actually WANT to be able to is have a temporal stabilizer that I carry with me that stabilizes the deep areas I want to mine and explore so I don't have to keep returning to the surface to stabilize. I don't think that exists, but it's another jonas device I would eagerly mod in.

[Krougal]

13 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

So let me make sure I understand because its common for me to get my understanding wrong.

First step would be to build in an unstable area and then 100+ hours later one would fix the stability.

So my question would be, if you can live for 100+ hours in an unstable base why would you feel the need to fix the stability later?

 

Are you actually going to spend 100+ continuous hours in your base?

A little common sense goes a long way.

Unless the instability is horrendous, you would have to afk for quite some time for it to zero out in anything I have come across on the surface.

Edited September 10, 2025 by Krougal

[LadyWYT]

40 minutes ago, CastIronFabric said:

So my question would be, if you can live for 100+ hours in an unstable base why would you feel the need to fix the stability later?

Well to go along with what Krougal said...

 

27 minutes ago, Krougal said:

Are you actually going to spend 100+ continuous hours in your base?

A little common sense goes a long way.

Unless the instability is horrendous, you would have to afk for quite some time for it to zero out in anything I have come across on the surface.

The player isn't going to be spending all 100 hours at their base, especially if it's in an unstable area. The instability means that the player will need to either go spend time regularly in a stable area or otherwise sacrifice the occasional temporal gear in order to recharge their stability. Hence why the player would be wanting to build a gizmo to fix the stability later--for the convenience.

In other words, the player could ignore stability and build wherever they want at the beginning of the game, and put up with some inconvenience until they can acquire appropriate stabilizing tech later.

[CastIronFabric]

2 hours ago, Krougal said:

Are you actually going to spend 100+ continuous hours in your base?

A little common sense goes a long way.

Unless the instability is horrendous, you would have to afk for quite some time for it to zero out in anything I have come across on the surface.

yes a little common sense does go a long way. I DO spend a great deal of time at my base and I like every single video I have seen are not keen on building a base at a location where the gear is spinning backwards in great haste. That is a lot of insanity while trying to build a windmill and cementation furnace.

[CastIronFabric]

2 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Well to go along with what Krougal said...

 

The player isn't going to be spending all 100 hours at their base, especially if it's in an unstable area. The instability means that the player will need to either go spend time regularly in a stable area or otherwise sacrifice the occasional temporal gear in order to recharge their stability. Hence why the player would be wanting to build a gizmo to fix the stability later--for the convenience.

In other words, the player could ignore stability and build wherever they want at the beginning of the game, and put up with some inconvenience until they can acquire appropriate stabilizing tech later.

I do not know of anyone, nor seen any video of anyone who builds their base in an area where the gear is running backwards at great haste with plans to build a windmill, cementation furnance, cellar etc. So I feel rather comfortable is saying its not normal for people to do that. As such I am going to suggest that it does not make sense to create a feature at end game that you need in early game

guys..come on.

Edited September 10, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Diff]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

I do not know of anyone, nor seen any video of anyone who builds their base in an area where the gear is running backwards at great haste

This is probably the source of the misunderstanding. You say "running backwards with great haste" but what others are trying to communicate is not that. Surface stability rarely (if ever) runs backwards with great haste. Negative surface stability is usually very slight, with any positively stable area quickly dominating it in absolute numbers. If your farm's slightly negative, it's never going to be a problem as long as you're mindful of it and don't idle there. Even if your house itself is slightly unstable, you likely don't have to worry about that much either if you get out enough and, again, are mindful of it. But you may be interested in stabilizing that area so it stops being something you have to be mindful of. Plenty of people have started bases in unstable areas before they learned that mechanic, and then adjusted their play rather than relocating their base once they did learn. First multiplayer server I played on, that's what I did myself.

It has other uses as well, as others have mentioned. Let's say you want to build a new base underground, or just want to spend a lot of time underground in your mines. That's not early game/is something that continues to come up in the late game, and having a mechanic to overcome that would be handy.

Edited September 10, 2025 by Diff
Nitpicking my own word choices, as is tradition.

[CastIronFabric]

3 hours ago, Diff said:

This is probably the source of the misunderstanding. You say "running backwards with great haste" but what others are trying to communicate is not that. Surface stability rarely (if ever) runs backwards with great haste. Negative surface stability is usually very slight, with any positively stable area quickly dominating it in absolute numbers. If your farm's slightly negative, it's never going to be a problem as long as you're mindful of it and don't idle there. Even if your house itself is slightly unstable, you likely don't have to worry about that much either if you get out enough and, again, are mindful of it. But you may be interested in stabilizing that area so it stops being something you have to be mindful of. Plenty of people have started bases in unstable areas before they learned that mechanic, and then adjusted their play rather than relocating their base once they did learn. First multiplayer server I played on, that's what I did myself.

It has other uses as well, as others have mentioned. Let's say you want to build a new base underground, or just want to spend a lot of time underground in your mines. That's not early game/is something that continues to come up in the late game, and having a mechanic to overcome that would be handy.

A late game feature that is mostly needed for a early game issue is not a good idea.

speaking for myself I do not want the gear to dictate where I can build...PEROID

[Diff]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

speaking for myself I do not want the gear to dictate where I can build...PEROID

Then disable the feature, like you already do. Those of us who don't would like to discuss ways to improve this feature. You are welcome, your ideas are welcome, but restating that you do not use it does little for the discussion of this feature which you do not use. Nobody here is trying to convince you to turn it back on, trust that you've communicated your distaste quite clearly.

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

A late game feature that is mostly needed for a early game issue is not a good idea.

This is not the case, as has been explained. This is an issue that still needs to be managed in the late game for those who don't disable temporal stability. The stability of your base remains the same in the early game as in the late game, and the late game only exposes additional reasons for this feature to be useful, not less.

Edited September 11, 2025 by Diff

[LadyWYT]

2 hours ago, CastIronFabric said:

A late game feature that is mostly needed for a early game issue is not a good idea.

 

15 minutes ago, Diff said:

This is not the case, for the reasons I and others who do actually play with this feature enabled have attempted to explain. This is an issue that still needs to be managed in the late game for those who don't disable temporal stability. The stability of your base remains the same in the early game as in the late game, and the late game only exposes additional reasons for this feature to be useful, not less.

I mean...isn't that technically what all late game stuff is for to begin with? Addressing things that were problems earlier in the game, but now aren't problems anymore because of that progress? Food is an early game problem, but ceases to be a concern once the player has established farms and captured livestock. The player cannot see in the dark either, but once they get a torch or oil lamp then they can navigate dark places, and upgrading from those early light sources allows easier navigation. Ranged combat is a problem early on as well, since spears don't have a particularly long range and take up a lot of inventory space. Longbows and recurve bows significantly mitigate those issues, but aren't readily available until much later in the game.

I'm with @Diff here...really don't see a problem when it comes to temporal stability, and having some sort of late game tech that can stabilize areas. It would be a great tie-in to Jonas tech as well as a great quality of life feature, and players who really don't want to have to wait that long or otherwise deal with the mechanic...will probably just have the temporal mechanics disabled at the start.

[CastIronFabric]

10 hours ago, Diff said:

Then disable the feature, like you already do. Those of us who don't would like to discuss ways to improve this feature. You are welcome, your ideas are welcome, but restating that you do not use it does little for the discussion of this feature which you do not use. Nobody here is trying to convince you to turn it back on, trust that you've communicated your distaste quite clearly.

This is not the case, as has been explained. This is an issue that still needs to be managed in the late game for those who don't disable temporal stability. The stability of your base remains the same in the early game as in the late game, and the late game only exposes additional reasons for this feature to be useful, not less.

I do disable it.

What I am telling you is that it does not make sense to have a late game solution to a early game issue

[CastIronFabric]

10 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

 

I mean...isn't that technically what all late game stuff is for to begin with? Addressing things that were problems earlier in the game, but now aren't problems anymore because of that progress? Food is an early game problem, but ceases to be a concern once the player has established farms and captured livestock. The player cannot see in the dark either, but once they get a torch or oil lamp then they can navigate dark places, and upgrading from those early light sources allows easier navigation. Ranged combat is a problem early on as well, since spears don't have a particularly long range and take up a lot of inventory space. Longbows and recurve bows significantly mitigate those issues, but aren't readily available until much later in the game.

I'm with @Diff here...really don't see a problem when it comes to temporal stability, and having some sort of late game tech that can stabilize areas. It would be a great tie-in to Jonas tech as well as a great quality of life feature, and players who really don't want to have to wait that long or otherwise deal with the mechanic...will probably just have the temporal mechanics disabled at the start.

its a early game problem.

Temporal Stability is a early game problem, it is not a late game problem.

People do not build bases in unstable areas.

Also, there are four lights

 

 

Edited September 11, 2025 by CastIronFabric

[Diff]

So, reality anchors, can they be picked back up or are they anchored too deeply to the space and just break?

Here's a thought, does an anchored area suppress drifter spawns during temporal storms? Does that make a temporal anchor a turbo powered rift ward?

[CastIronFabric]

21 minutes ago, Diff said:

So, reality anchors, can they be picked back up or are they anchored too deeply to the space and just break?

Here's a thought, does an anchored area suppress drifter spawns during temporal storms? Does that make a temporal anchor a turbo powered rift ward?

who are you talking to and what is 'reality anchors'?

[Echo Weaver]

27 minutes ago, Diff said:

So, reality anchors, can they be picked back up or are they anchored too deeply to the space and just break?

Here's a thought, does an anchored area suppress drifter spawns during temporal storms? Does that make a temporal anchor a turbo powered rift ward?

As I was brainstorming earlier in the thread, the kind of temporal anchor that sounds most exciting to me is one that I can carry with me to stabilize the area around me for deep mining and exploration.

Rotbeasts don't emerge from rifts in the depths, though, or at least I'm pretty sure that's not the mechanism. They just spawn in the darkness below a certain depth and/or temporal stability level.

An item that could stabilize the area I'm standing on and suppress/reduce rotbeast spawning would be a dream jonas device.

[Diff]

8 minutes ago, Echo Weaver said:

As I was brainstorming earlier in the thread, the kind of temporal anchor that sounds most exciting to me is one that I can carry with me to stabilize the area around me for deep mining and exploration.

Rotbeasts don't emerge from rifts in the depths, though, or at least I'm pretty sure that's not the mechanism. They just spawn in the darkness below a certain depth and/or temporal stability level.

An item that could stabilize the area I'm standing on and suppress/reduce rotbeast spawning would be a dream jonas device.

Something I've been wondering, how does rift activity factor into spawning for riftless rotbeasts? I see less of them when rift activity is lower in relatively shallow caves, but does that still apply deeper underground?

What if anchors consumed temporal gears as they operate? Right now players can consume temporal gears to regain stability, so a machine that can consume gears to maintain stability seems like it'd fit right in, without cheesing the entire mechanic of temporal stability out of existence with one easily moved item.

EDIT: Apparently this is already how rift wards work.

Edited September 11, 2025 by Diff