Fishing - Thoughts and Ideas

[3RS]

Hello again!  I've returned with another suggestion.  "Fishing."  Now I'm sure this is in the works, but I thought I'd plop my 2 cent here to help the devs come up with something more robust.  I'll delve into my madness in sections.  So here we go!

Section 1: Rods and Reels.

Fishing can't be done with out a fishing rod.  Well okay, maybe you can fish with your hands but that's beside the point here.  So, how would you make one?  That's fairly simple.  3 sticks in a diagonal, and 3 rope in an reverse L shape.  Like so!(S=Stick, R=Rope.)

                    S

          S       R

S        R       R

But that's only one type of fishing rod.  The cheap affordable rod to craft I'll call, the "Shoddy Rod"!  Yes yes, I can already hear the giggling.  You're all so cleaver and witty.  But why more rods?  Well, not only to have a progression of durability, but I also would like for better rods to give you the ability to catch better fish.  What does that mean?  I'll get into it in another section, but  basically if you want to catch higher quality fish, you need a better quality rod. 

How are the other rods made?  Instead of sticks and rope, you'll be working with boards of the many different woods and rope.(I decided to go with rope considering that flax can be hard to find.  The reels, however will need either flax fiber or twine.  In this way, it's like you are removing the rope and replacing it with the reel and flax fishing line.  Or something like that.)  Though I was going to try and figure out which woods will create which qualities of rods, I had no such luck...  I tried using the bow index(for bows naturally) to use as a springboard, but sadly, it was beyond me.  But that's my goal.  Different tree boards yield different rod types.  The next step up would be to add a reel to the rods to make them even better.  The reels will be made of ores, like copper and such.  Maybe adding a reel to a weaker rod type will up the quality of fish it can catch, and not just its durability.  How do you craft a reel?  I'm not sure yet...  "Reel"-ly hadn't given that part much thought...  Get it?...  Anyway, that's the general idea.

Section 2: The Fish.

Next, let's talk about fish quality, shall we?  What I mean by this, is that fish fall within certain star qualities.  For the sake of not making this thread a novel, I'll focus on some well known river fish and rank them as follows.

1 Star quality: Black Crappie, White Crappie, Bluegill, Sunfish

2 Star: Yellow Perch, Yellow Bullhead Catfish, Black Bullhead Catfish, Rock Bass

3 Star: Smallmouth Bass, Walleye, Sauger, Common Carp, Rainbow Trout

4 Star: Largemouth Bass, Chain Pickerel, Brown Bullhead Catfish, Char

5 Star: Channel Catfish, Flathead Catfish, Northern Pike, Muskellunge, Black Sturgeon

6 Star: White Sturgeon

Or something like this.  How does this correlate to the rods?  Simple, cheap rods can only catch 1 Star quality fish, while the highest rods can catch fish from 5 Star and lower.  Reels are needed for the elusive 6 Stars.  Reels and can also be used to lower the chances of cheaper quality fish.  Obviously they can be cooked and eaten, with better yields the higher the fish's quality.  But why eat them when you can SELL them?  Which leads too...

Section 3:  The Humble Fish Monger.

A new trader type that specializes in, well...  Fish!  If you got a bunch of fish swimming a hole in your pockets, and don't need to cook 'em, find yourself a Fish Monger to sell them.  Now 1 stars aren't gonna fetch much, a gear or two at best.  But the higher up you go, the bigger your fortune will get!  Now the Fish Monger doesn't just buy fish, they also sell them as well.  As a general rule, they won't be buying any fish that they are selling though.  That rule should be obvious as to why it exists.  But fish isn't the only thing they sell.  You can find rods, reels, and even some fancy fisherman garb for you to spruce yourself up with.  Like vests or waders.  Strictly cosmetic mind you.  They also might sell some other things, but those things will be found in...

Section 4:  To In-"Fin"-ity and Beyond!

In this section I'll briefly go over some ideas that don't necessarily need to be apart of Fishing basic.

To start, fisheries.  Much like raising chickens, pigs and such, it would be just as nice to raise fish too.  You can get eggs, meat, and course the fish themselves.  Now in order for you to keep them you'll need...

Fish food.(The other thing I was thinking the Fish Monger can sell.)  Fish food can come in three varieties.  Common Fish food, for 1 to 2 star fish.  Made from berries and veggies.  Better Fish food, for 3 to 4 stars.  Made from 1 or 2 star fish.  And High grade Fish food, for 5 to 6 stars.  Made from 3 to 4 star fish.  You can feed them buy using small or large troughs respectively, placing them on the sides of the livewell they are living in.

Of course you can just display your fish in a nice little aquarium in your home.

Another thing that can be added later is fishing locations.  Ponds, Rivers, and Oceans.  Each having their own yield of fish.  You can even go further and make regional variations for each as well.

Not only that, but I was thinking that instead of the standard one button press, or mouse click catch, a mini-game could be played.  Something along the lines of how Stardew Valley does fishing.  That way there's a little challenge, and you can kind tell what fish you might have on the line.  Though I suppose this can leave you open to a wolf ambush...

And...  That's it!  Of course, as always, feel free to add to, take way, or whatever you like.  So, has ol' 3RS hit a home run?  Or have I struck out?

Edited April 13, 2020 by 3RS

[Jameh]

This is a well-thought-out suggestion that fits into the game and it's current mechanics. Just, yes. Tyron, do this. +1

[Mads Søby]

I would prefer it more open, with no restrictions.

Please, take your time to read this, it will be worth the time.

A more open system, letting the player experiment, could be as follows:

You can fish anywhere, with any rod, and any fish will have a chance of biting (depending on where you are of course!)

BUT, fishing, is a battle against the fish.
 
You'll watch your rod durability go down, everytime the fish pulls back.
(There could be an animation for that + a creaking sound of the rod bending, and the line stretching.)

"Is ýour fishing pole strong enough to last the battle against the big fish?"

 

It should really be that simple. Natural restrictions.

Any pole will have the chance of attracting any fish, but is it durable and strong enough to hold against the pull of a bigger fish?
(There could be an animation for that, plus, a creaking sound of the wooden rod bending, and the line stretching.)

Im a BIG FAN of your idea of different wood types having different durability tho!

Which leads me to this!!!:

 

Make the line and pole 2 different items, created seperately.

This would open up to deeper mechanics like, bigger fish dealing heavy damage to weaker wood types, but when you have a sturdy enough wood type, some fish wont even bring its durability down the least.

In that case, you only have to worry about replacing the line now and then.
You could then either replace the line with rope, or flax, dictating its durability (and wether or not you can use it with a reel!)*1

This idea would require two different damage types; one for the rod, and one for the line.
Some fish wont ever even damage the rod, depending on the treetype, and should only wear down the line, slowly, with speed depending on the line-material.

Some fish would obliviate weaker wood types, and snap them in a few pulls. Or just snap the line. (Or pull you in!)*2
 

1* Reels could come in somewhere between reducing the durability loss on the line, and not letting the fish gain back too much line when it pulls.
(Can only be used with a flax line, creating a big leap between improvised fishing poles you make in the wild, and sturdy, well made fishing rods, with a fine metal reel, and an expensive flax line.)
 

This is all imagining that fishing will work like this;
The fish bites the hook, and then you have to slowly reel it in. The fish will then pull back (this is where your rod either breaks or holds, depending on wood type), and the line will obviously always take a small or big durability loss from these pulls, depending on the material and fish strength/size.

Maybe add gameplay mechanics to let the player minimize durability loss while fighting a fish, by better timing the reels and pulls or whatever. It would be great to let the player become "better", mastering the art of fishing.

Example: The fishing rod is always held in the "off" hand, the "torch-hand". You then use your free "main" hand,to control the reel. If you can see your rod is about to snap, you can let the line run freely, and before the line is no longer, you can equip a knife in your "main" hand by scrolling in your toolbar, and cut the line! 
That way, saving your rod with skill! (making for good gameplay that you can master!)

Or just make a flax twine/rope recipe, with all the wood types. When combined, they make up the sum of the fishing pole durability, and have the whole thing break as one item. bit boring...

OR, have the pole NEVER break, and only focus on replacing the line, so still 2 seperate items. much better, but..

I personally prefer the very first idea, as it is more in depth, both fitting the general style, and also making fishing more interactive, and REALLY creating a big leap between improvised fishing rods, and sturdy, well made fishing rods with a fine metal reel and a flax line.

 

Another thing that i think makes up for your idea, somewhat, could be:

BAIT :)!

Bigger bait, for better chances at attracting bigger fish!

Some Rare & Exotic fish might only be attracted to some specific bait? Who knows, could be fun.

This could also create a use for stale food (not rotting), being better as bait, as fish in general most likely would prefer it that way I imagine. Slightly fermented meat for example.

Also, that way you wont have to sacrifice good fresh food, in order to maybe get fish.

 

PS: I've always wanted to see Vintage Story go with some more dark fantasy creatures to encounter, instead of them all being mechanical. I would like some inherently native fantasy creatures to exist in the world.

Imagine if we got ocean-biomes with creepy big dangerous fish that would eat you? Or semi-big sea serpents out in the deep waves? Or in the mires?

2* Imagine using a bighorn leg to lure in a huge, sharp teethed fish, out on the ocean in a smol smol boat, having to fight that thing with a spear while it tries to sink your boat. Or standing on you boat, and being pulled into the water, by something big! So intense!

 

Or more swamplike biomes. 

Seriously Check out The Between Lands mod for MineCraft, for some sick inspiration! Best vibes ever!
I wish the creators would take a look at Vintage Story, and do the same for this game.
It would be legendary with the more in depth, and logical survival mechanics (and better modability!) of Vintage Story.
Just amazing.


Especially with fishing, hehehe....

Edited December 8, 2020 by Mads Søby

[Fredrik Blomquist]

Fishing can surtainly be done without a fishing rod. Historicaly in most cases, fishing with a hook has been done without a rod. From the feeling of the game, i would prefer more focus on historical fishing methods, like fishing traps. But i wouldn´t mind seeing a line and hook as well, and perhaps a fishing spear.

[Thalius]

I very much look forward to fishing finding it's way into the game. I as well could envision having a system that is complicated and fun to those of us that enjoy the sport of fishing- of having various qualities of gear, line, baits, etc, and the various types and sizes of fish we could catch by combining various types of gear and bait in different locations. We could have a lot of fun with it.

However, as I play VS and envision what fishing should look like, I pictures something simpler and more old-world (and not so old-world in some places), feeling:

• Add fish traps made from woven reeds and split bamboo shafts or sticks.

Sticks and reeds should yield crude fish traps, but bamboo gives you the same option, as well as the option to make a large fish trap. Larger fish traps can catch small to medium sized fish, and more than just one or two. Only smaller fish are caught in crude fish traps, and only one to three small fish at a time.  A handful of small fish make a small meal, but these crude traps are also useful for catching small fish for bait for catching larger fish once you have fishing line.

• Add braided fishing hand-line.

This would be a long, strong, thin cord made from a decent amount of oiled flax twine that is braided together to add strength.  To make oiled flax twine, add a few bundles of twine and some animal fat. Use the oiled flax twine to make a braided fishing hand-line. The oil from the fat helps protect the cord while being used in water, making the cord suitable for fishing purposes.  This hand line would be too thick to put on any reel. It is made for hand use only, or for tying off on stakes at shore or to trees or limbs. Fishing with a hand line yields a small chance at catching a small fish, but better chances at catching medium to large fish.

• Add bait

Nothing complicated here. Allow bits of meat or fat to be cut up into bait, and allow smaller fish to be used as bait.  If insects ever become something that we can catch, they'd make great bait as well.  If fish species are introduced that are climate dependent, add fruit as bait to catch fish that only eat such things. Pacu, for example, down here in the jungle; a fish which eats insects, minnows, and fruit that often fall into the water or come within reach when flooding occurs.

• Fishing spears. 

A crude fishing spear would simply be a wooden stick with a point cut onto it.  Better quality fishing spears would include a sturdy shaft with four long, thin metal spikes firmly attached to the end of it.

• Add nets.

Require these be made of large amounts of oiled flax twine.  They can be staked off between shore lines or stakes driven into shallow water. Check them often, and especially in the morning.  Leave them untended for prolonged periods of time, and the net rots and takes damage and you don't catch much if anything. This would be the end game, afk fishing method for a decent supply of fish with minimal effort. Lot of oiled flax twine would be needed for this, and you would have to keep an eye on it to keep it from rotting away in the water, but it could yield decent amounts of small to medium fish.

(It goes without saying that this suggestion would require the simple addition of oiled flax twine into the game, as it's creation was laid out in this suggestion).

A personal note:

 

I love to fish.  Where I live now, fishing is a bit harder to do given the natural terrain and lack of availability of good fishing waters that are easily accessible.  Before moving here though, fishing was a regular event, and I had rods and gear for all manner of prey.

Now, though, I live in a place where things are entirely different. People fish, but they do it with gill nets, cast nets, and for larger fish- hand lines.  Yes, simple strong fishing line or cord with a weight and a hook.  They will throw the line out and wait, holding line in hand, or in rivers they will tie the line off in a downed tree or a hanging tree limb in a way that allows the bait to suspend in the current.  VERY few use fishing rods, and I imagine in most cultures such as this one, it is the same.  And yes, they use fishing spears as well, to this day.  They will swim down in clear rivers and spear fish. It does not get any simpler.  They even place split bamboo traps in streams and shallow water, made from woven reeds and split bamboo shafts, and tied where necessary with vines or strands from banana plants. 

All of these methods are used to this very day, and feed families and communities regularly in a place where rod and reel is neither easy to acquire, nor ideal to their needs. All are reflected in my suggestion to what fishing should look like in the game.  I personally think they would make for a great, simple and rewarding fishing system that would fit nicely into the VS world environment.

Humbly submitted,
~TH~

P.S. If anyone comes up with a dynamic and complicated but fun fishing/fishing gear system mod complete with various fish types linked to environments and such, and the ability to mount them for display, I'd add the mod to my personal game for the sheer fun of it. I think it would break immersion though to make them part of the core game.  Just my opinion though, for what it is worth.

 

 

Edited March 6, 2021 by Thalius

[Hal13]

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

Fishing can't be done with out a fishing rod.  Well okay, maybe you can fish with your hands but that's beside the point here.

Spear fishing? Nets? Traps? Handline? ... So much more fishing possibilities than only fishing rods, and all are more efficient...

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

I decided to go with rope considering that flax can be hard to find.

I have yet found enough vines to craft a single rope... flax you can just kill drifters for.

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

What I mean by this, is that fish fall within certain star qualities

I guess stars are some tier mechanism? But why do fish care for which rod is at the end of the line?

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

Fish food can come in three varieties.  Common Fish food, for 1 to 2 star fish.  Made from berries and veggies.  Better Fish food, for 3 to 4 stars.  Made from 1 or 2 star fish.  And High grade Fish food, for 5 to 6 stars.  Made from 3 to 4 star fish. 

Not complient with animal husbandry (as it is now and hopefully stays) and hopefully keeping animals will never become that tedious that you'd need a constant supply of animals to feed them to bigger animals, meaning you constantly need to breed the lower tier animal... a VS day is only 20 minutes, and the main foci of the game are exploration, building and survival.

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

standard one button press

You speak of Vintage Story, right?

 

On 4/13/2020 at 3:22 AM, 3RS said:

Something along the lines of how Stardew Valley does fishing. 

I love Stardew Valley, but i hate fishing in it and stop doing it everytime i have all the fish i need for the playthrough (meaning 1 of each and the stuff for the community center). My time at portia has a better fitting mechanim for a game with 3 dimensions.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Hal13

[3RS]

I had this big detailed argument typed out, but you know?  Why get into it?  Over a suggestion no the less.

What I tried to do is come up with an Idea to make fishing similar to the same progression as mining and metalworking with ores.  Better pickaxes mine better ores.  Better anvils make better tools.  Better fishing rods land better fish.  It's that simple.

Vintage Story walks a fine line between too plain and too complex.  Make it too plain, and it's boring and not engaging.  Make it too complex, and it's aggravating and off putting to do.

Balance should not be sacrificed for the sake of realism.  Just because that's what's used in real life, doesn't mean that it's healthy for the environment of the game world.  It might break the natural order of how the devs made the world to begin with.  Sometimes it's better to just leave it out, and that's the reason why I think fishing hasn't been implemented yet.

Do I think fishing would be cool?  Sure.  Who cares how its done in the game mechanically.  However, I do care if it ends up breaking the natural progression that's currently there.

But maybe I'm out of touch.  I haven't played Vintage Story in half a year, and I don't have much desire to return to it as of late. 

So why am I here?  I just felt like my idea was getting lost on people, due to their desire for realism.  VS is a game, first and foremost.  And my idea was how to make a game more compelling, not more realistic.

Peace.

[DanaCraluminum]

I think for fishing you need to first make the mechanics with a prevalence / abundance of fish per chunk. Also salinity / freshness of the water

Edited March 7, 2021 by Craluminum

[Hal13]

3 hours ago, 3RS said:

What I tried to do is come up with an Idea to make fishing similar to the same progression as mining and metalworking with ores.  Better pickaxes mine better ores.  Better anvils make better tools.  Better fishing rods land better fish.  It's that simple.

Yes better pickaxes mine better ores and break stone faster, but you can attempt to break the blocks with a lower tier pickaxe (same with hammers and anvils and apart from that no other tool has similar restrictions). That's why i don't think fish should care about the rod you use, it should be in the responsibility of the player to decide if they make a futile attempt on baiting and fishing for too big fish. Apart from that, i haven't seen any fishing rod mechanic in a game yet that i really liked and i don't understand recreational fishing at all (but i don't understand flying somewhere to vacation or watching others doing sports either).

Tiering different baits and letting the player use any rod to fish, adds to immersion, sure if the rod is too flimsy it or the line will break, but let them try, maybe just give a message that the fish is unlikely to be reeled in with the rod you use, make it a learning experience. Tier 0 rods could be made out of sticks, bamboo or even reed, tier 1 may need boards, tier 2+ may need some metal part to reinforce it or to add some mechanism.

Why make fishing more time consuming than hunting? Why only introduce fishing rods? I'm not argueing let's add trawlers, but maybe thrown nets (which could provide some new mechanic for hunting smaller game too) or spear fishing (which technically is already in the game and would only need adding fish mobs), i'm arguing that other fishing methods provide more possibilities and/or less work to implement and therefore shouldn't be ignored.

Maybe baited tier 0+ rods could catch tiny fish about everywhere (provided that you use tier 0 bait), while any small sized or bigger fish would actually be a mob? Maybe angling would have the benefit of not having to be real close to the water to get the fish out, something that might be of interest when there are hostile mobs spawning under water too. Handthrown nets are only good for fish up to medium size, spears work better if the fish is big enough for you to hit, with angling you would be able to catch a bigger variety of fish reliably (here meaning without the player needing good aim) compared to the other methods, making it a viable choice instead of the only way.

And i'm not sure we need another trader, i mean fish/fishing equipment could just become part of the food/survival goods traders, fresh fish wasn't known for being transported long distances until relatively recently.

 

4 hours ago, Craluminum said:

I think for fishing you need to first make the mechanics with a prevalence / abundance of fish per chunk. Also salinity / freshness of the water

That could just be part of the biome, i mean they want to add real oceans at some point. just say a certain fish spawns only in oceans (or only outside of oceans) around a certain latitude and depth. Water generated in oceans could get a salt water tag but i'm not sure that'll really be necessary, i mean even fresh water can be used to get salt, it's not too much of a stretch to average out the salinity for all water and simplify mechanics at this point.

[3RS]

I've abandoned this idea, as you can tell by the fact that my original post is one month away from being a year old, because it clashes with the early game.  In the beginning it's all about finding a place to settle down and finding a sustainable food source.  The panic to find said food source, in my opinion is a good thing.  Gives challenge.  However... 

58 minutes ago, Hal13 said:

Why make fishing more time consuming than hunting? Why only introduce fishing rods?

Whether it be by net or anything else, it doesn't matter, but fishing would break that to pieces.  Nets would not be all that hard to make, unless you make them hard to make, but then what would be the point in doing so?  If they are hard to make then it's off putting, and hunting and farming would be better.  If they're easy to make, then you wouldn't need to hunt or farm.  One could argue to not make fish as filling, but what would be the point?  Meat isn't that hard to get, as animals are kinda dumb and easy to trap.  At the end of the day, if you can't trade them for gears, fish would serve but one purpose, and that is consumption.  And since there are already sources of food easier to get and better to eat, there isn't much of a practical reason to implement it. 

The only two reasons to have it is for the sake of realism or challenge.  That's why people fish recreationally.  It's about getting the right bait, finding the right spot, and fighting the good fight to either land the fish or have it get away.  Might not make sense to some, but that's the reason.  However, that's a flimsy reason to have it implemented in Vintage Story.  I've mulled it over in my head time and time again, and I just couldn't get fishing to fit in to Vintage Story at all.  At least not in a practical progression sense.

What does that mean?  Well.  Foraging comes before farming.  Farming comes before hunting.  Hunting comes before ranching.  As you can see, there is natural flow to the progression of sustainable food.  But were would fish fit into this?  I don't know, which is why I stopped and let the thread go it's own way.

TL:DR Fish as a food source would either be too broken, or take up to many resources and make it not worth it.

Edited March 8, 2021 by 3RS

[Thalius]

Fishing is a means of acquiring protein that is less dangerous, and semi afk if you can put out nets or lines. It allows players to acquire meat that would rather not be required to hunt or do animal husbandry work  It is also a way to acquire protein when decent gear for hunting is hard to come by. 

Hunting, of course, nets you bones, hide and fat as well, so there is an important added benefit to the risk of hunting animals.  There is a trade off for acquiring meat via the safe way- fishing, verses added rewards that come with putting yourself at risk chasing down prey that can hurt you or risking running into wolves while chasing down rabbits.

Fishing as a sport or for entertainment is only the luxury of those that don't need it because they have plenty, by the way. There are still many parts of the world where people depend on fishing to put food on their table, and they don't use the sporty methods of acquiring it.  They use the best means of acquiring it as dependably as they can in the largest quantities they can.  Large nets are a fantastic way to catch decent amounts of fish, if you have the resources (money in real life) to acquire one.  Tying off limb lines is another dependable method of having something to eat the next morning after leaving several out all night.

I also know that the thread is old, but fishing has been on my mind and discussed by others recently, as some are looking forward to a hopefully not too far off update to water that brings fishing and other things into the game.  Forum rules note that if we want to make a suggestion, we should search for the topic first to see if it has already been mentioned, and add our thoughts to that thread rather than starting another thread on the same topic. Thus, in searching, I found this older thread at the top of the list and added my ideas here.

Please don't take offense- The ideas in the OP sound like they would make for a fun mod, I just don't think it would be a good fit for the core game.
Just my opinion though, for what it is worth. The devs know better than I do and will make a wise choice when it comes to it, I am sure.

~TH~

 

[3RS]

I guess I'm not doing a good job at communicating what I mean.  Happens.  Text is hard to understand intent.

I don't care if others want to discuss.  That's not the reason why I came back.  I was being specifically addressed in the post above by Hal.  I tried to give the old reasoning for why I came up with what I did to give clarity.  I pointed out the age of the post that was being responded to, to show that it is almost a year old and I might not feel the same way I do now as I did then.  And, I don't.  In my opinion, there was no reason to bring me back into conversation when there were clearly others, like yourself, who were more currently active and willing to talk about it.

I have no problem with anyone discussing the merit of fishing as a future endeavor.  By all means, discuss away.  But my place in the discussion ended a long time ago.

[Hal13]

oh...sorry, i don't really look at the date something was posted on... i always read the whole topic and when i see something i don't understand the reasoning behind i start writing a post...

It turned up on the first page in suggestions and had only a few posts i just read them and assumed it was a recently started discussion...

[l33tmaan]

Giant fish monsters when?

[Hal13]

35 minutes ago, l33tmaan said:

Giant fish monsters when?

I read several suggestions for such and as VS is supposed to be connected to lovecraftian horror, I wouldn't be surprised if Deep Ones or something similar get introduced.

Of course krakens and vortexes would be sufficiently problematic for ocean travel...

[Thalius]

I think giant temporal eels would be pretty creepy.  Probably should be a smaller variety we could catch.