The sling doesn't really mesh with Malefactor's incentivised playstyle

[ifoz]

I've been thinking about this for a while, and it got back into my mind again after I read the "sling shouldn't be class-locked" thread.

I think the sling is a pretty weird class exclusive item for the Malefactor to have.
Malefactor's traits incentivise a playstyle where players hunt for ruins, most often underground due to the loot being much better than the surface. Because of this, Malefactor players usually end up spending quite a bit of time in caves. Ranged weapons are less useful in caves and tight spaces, especially the sling with its lower damage and rocks that can ricochet off the walls at unpredictable angles. Because of this, I think that the sling doesn't really mesh with the playstyle that Malefactor players are encouraged to have, and for that it is a bit of a strange choice to be their exclusive item.

The trait that allows them to make the sling is also called "improvisor", but nothing is particularly improvised about the sling. It's a regular sling, made of regular materials that usually do not come from ruins.

This ties into an older idea I had - allowing any class to craft the sling, and giving the Malefactor welded/upgraded scrap weapons instead. Melee weapons would be more useful than ranged weapons for caving, and having them be made of scrap would offer a natural incentive to ruin hunt as a Malefactor, as well as fitting with their "improvisor" trait. Requiring them to be welded would also give another use to the soldering iron and solder bars, and gate them behind having a copper anvil. (Soldering iron needs a copper chisel, which needs an anvil).

This would hopefully result in the kind of gameplay where a Malefactor player would go out, find some ruins, break their current weapon while fighting, and then go home and weld up a new one from the scraps they found on that expedition. I think this would integrate their exclusive item into their incentivised gameplay pretty nicely.

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Anyway, this is just a discussion about gameplay balance and incentivised playstyles! 
All the other classes get exclusives that mesh well for the most part with the playstyles they incentivise, except for Malefactor, and I think that's a little strange.
I think it'd be fun to know the design intent behind the sling being their exclusive item - perhaps the player is supposed to craft it from rope found from locust nests and linen from drifter kills? 

Edited April 17 by ifoz

[LadyWYT]

9 minutes ago, ifoz said:

The trait that allows them to make the sling is also called "improvisor", but nothing is particularly improvised about the sling. It's a regular sling, made of regular materials that usually do not come from ruins.

I think the idea might be more that it's a weapon that very easy to improvise, both in terms of making the weapon itself and supplying ammo for said weapon. A bow can be improvised as well, I supposed, but a bow can't really fire just any ammunition, whereas a sling can throw all kinds of stuff, at least in theory.

I would say that perhaps the sling recipe just needs to be cheaper, maybe just rope? Then it's easy to craft from raw materials or scavenged goodies. Ammunition could include pretty much anything that the player can throw, that also is small enough to actually fit in said sling(so not spears).

From a class lore standpoint, a sling can also be easily concealed, or worn as a belt/otherwise tied around the body for ease of transport, which is convenient if one is a shady character. Granted, this isn't actually a function in gameplay, though I suppose it could be.

14 minutes ago, ifoz said:

This ties into an older idea I had - allowing any class to craft the sling, and giving the Malefactor welded/upgraded scrap weapons instead. Melee weapons would be more useful than ranged weapons for caving, and having them be made of scrap would offer a natural incentive to ruin hunt as a Malefactor, as well as fitting with their "improvisor" trait. Requiring them to be welded would also give another use to the soldering iron and solder bars, and gate them behind having a copper anvil. (Soldering iron needs a copper chisel, which needs an anvil).

This would hopefully result in the kind of gameplay where a Malefactor player would go out, find some ruins, break their current weapon while fighting, and then go home and weld up a new one from the scraps they found on that expedition. I think this would integrate their exclusive item into their incentivised gameplay pretty nicely.

Maybe, but I think you could just as easily give some lockpicks to pick basic locks in ruins(like you mentioned elsewhere), or perhaps give them a bonus to crafting and resisting poisons when such gameplay is introduced. The former allows the Malefactor more advantage when treasure hunting, while the latter takes advantage of their criminal background to help them stay alive. After all, if you're dealing with other criminal types, it's probably handy to know different methods of dispatching targets without attracting attention, as well as handy to know the side effects of said poisons and what the treatments are, should you ever find yourself on the wrong end of the knife.

The upgraded improvised weapons does sound neat, but the main issue I see there is how does such a thing function when the player turns off class-exclusive recipes? It seems like it would end up a scenario like the tuning spear, in that only the Clockmaker can actually use it to the fullest extent since locust-taming is tied to the Clockmaker class and not the tuning spear itself. However, in this case, it seems like other classes would be locked out of crafting the stuff themselves, even with class-exclusives turned off.

Perhaps scrap weapons could just last longer for Malefactors instead? Maybe even dealing a bit more damage with them as well.

22 minutes ago, ifoz said:

Anyway, this is just a discussion about gameplay balance and incentivised playstyles! 
All the other classes get exclusives that mesh well for the most part with the playstyles they incentivise, except for Malefactor, and I think that's a little strange.
I think it'd be fun to know the design intent behind the sling being their exclusive item - perhaps the player is supposed to craft it from rope found from locust nests and linen from drifter kills? 

After my ranting in the farmer thread, I think classes in general may be due for some overhaul once more core game systems are implemented. By that I don't mean just adding more classes--while I would expect to see at least a couple more classes added to the roster, I'd rather have fewer classes that have a lot of depth in the world itself and little overlap compared to each other, than several classes that don't have much depth at all and overlap with other classes in many cases.

Rather, I mean that the classes and associated traits that we have right now are fine for what the game currently has to offer. Though I do think that with a status effect system, "crafting" traits such as Malefactor's Improviser and Blackguard's Merciless could offer some other benefits aside from just being crafting traits. Improviser might mean that the Malefactor can treat certain kinds of injuries faster, or might be resistant to certain diseases or poisons. Merciless might mean that Blackguards ignore the pain of certain injuries(to an extent) in order to ruthlessly put down a target. I'm not really sure what the other crafting traits could offer, but you get the idea.

I think the main sticking point on Malefactor to me is that the class seems to be geared towards avoiding combat when possible thanks to a questionable past, so giving them a sling is a bit odd but the improvised weapons don't quite solve the problem either, if the goal is to focus on scavenging and exploration and less on combat. While better medicine is better suited for an Alchemist or Herbalist class, having a few more options for simple remedies seems like it would be appropriate for Malefactor as well. Survival against all odds and whatnot. In a multiplayer setting, it also means the Malefactor can pair well with a class better at fighting, by helping scrounge up extra food and patching injuries/treating poisoning as needed.

[ifoz]

41 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

The upgraded improvised weapons does sound neat, but the main issue I see there is how does such a thing function when the player turns off class-exclusive recipes? It seems like it would end up a scenario like the tuning spear, in that only the Clockmaker can actually use it to the fullest extent since locust-taming is tied to the Clockmaker class and not the tuning spear itself. However, in this case, it seems like other classes would be locked out of crafting the stuff themselves, even with class-exclusives turned off.

If it was a recipe that just allowed metal scrap, a soldering iron and solder bars to make an upgraded version of the scrap weapon kit, then it wouldn't be fully tied to the Malefactor and could be enabled for all classes when the setting is changed.
 

 

41 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

After my ranting in the farmer thread, I think classes in general may be due for some overhaul once more core game systems are implemented. By that I don't mean just adding more classes--while I would expect to see at least a couple more classes added to the roster, I'd rather have fewer classes that have a lot of depth in the world itself and little overlap compared to each other, than several classes that don't have much depth at all and overlap with other classes in many cases.

I definitely agree with this. I struggle to think of a new class that could really bring much to the table in terms of gameplay, since most aspects are already covered by the base classes. Maybe some kind of healer/doctor class once status effects are added, but other than that given the current systems, everything seems pretty much taken care of by one of the existing classes. There's already a bit of overlap with negative status effects as well, and I don't think it'd be great adding new classes and then just giving them 'frail' and 'nervous' for the tenth time in a row. 


I also agree with your point about the Malefactor being more designed for stealth than for combat, but I struggle to think of ways this could be properly expanded without a better stealth system being implemented. Cones of vision, noise, camouflage, etc. If these sorts of things were in some way integrated into the game, I'd imagine Malefactor could get a lot more stealth gameplay going for them.

Edited April 17 by ifoz

[LadyWYT]

9 hours ago, ifoz said:

I struggle to think of a new class that could really bring much to the table in terms of gameplay, since most aspects are already covered by the base classes.

In addition to some kind of doctor, I'd really like to see a noble class. Granted, nobles don't exactly seem to be prevalent among the ranks, for many reasons, but I think it could make for a cool challenge class, with some rather unique NPC interactions, especially since there's nothing to really cement their position as nobility anymore but they likely still think of themselves as higher-class citizens.

[cjameshuff]

46 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

In addition to some kind of doctor, I'd really like to see a noble class. Granted, nobles don't exactly seem to be prevalent among the ranks, for many reasons, but I think it could make for a cool challenge class, with some rather unique NPC interactions, especially since there's nothing to really cement their position as nobility anymore but they likely still think of themselves as higher-class citizens.

Scholars? With the skill to decipher books/maps/blueprints that other classes can't read, and preexisting map markers representing knowledge from their studies...places where there used to be mines, settlements, etc.

[LadyWYT]

58 minutes ago, cjameshuff said:

Scholars? With the skill to decipher books/maps/blueprints that other classes can't read, and preexisting map markers representing knowledge from their studies...places where there used to be mines, settlements, etc.

Eh, it's too niche/uninteresting mechanically, and doesn't track with the lore. The world isn't the same as it used to be and much has shifted out of place, not to mention that the player character has, quite literally, just popped into existence and has no knowledge of where anything is. Player characters are already capable of reading things that others cannot(as certain NPCs will note).

Mechanically speaking, one common complaint about Tailor is that the class doesn't offer anything particularly useful, while suffering several drawbacks. To be fair, Tailor is meant to be a challenge class/"fish out of water", and it makes sense that Scholar might be similar, but in terms of flavor it's not ideal to have two classes that are too similar to one another. Doctor/Herbalist/Alchemist or Noble would be better choices, since those options are both going to fit the role of scholar but with more distinct, useful traits and flavor that doesn't overlap as much with other existing classes.

[williams_482]

What actual plusses and negatives would a noble class have? My initial thoughts are largely self contradictory.

A Noble would have physical advantages from growing up eating actually decent food in larger quantities than most of the populace, and would spend much more time than average doing dedicated combat training. They would likely be more knowledgeable about esoteric things technical things they may have read about. They will be better trained in social niceties and benefit from such when interacting with NPCs. 

A Noble would have disadvantages on many practically useful physical tasks because they simply haven't done them very much. They may be accustomed to more comfortable living conditions which are no longer available, and feel impaired by their absence. They will lack practical knowledge when it comes to most forms of foraging and agriculture, and likely have less understanding of simple tools and mechanisms that a peasant would interact with regularly. They may come across as aloof and unsympathetic to NPCs, to their detriment. 

Bashing those two descriptions against each other, I get speed and melee damage boosts and no penalty to ranged attacks, but a hefty penalty to foraging, crop, and animal harvests, and mining speed/yields, as well as increased hunger rates and maybe some custom craftable nicknacks or a trade bonus. Basically a pure combat class which will struggle mightily to support itself, which is about right for a warrior aristocrat cut loose from the social structure he was installed near the top of. 

[LadyWYT]

20 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

What actual plusses and negatives would a noble class have?

I took a stab at drafting a Noble class a while back: 

Not really sure how well it holds up now, but yeah.

 

21 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

A Noble would have physical advantages from growing up eating actually decent food in larger quantities than most of the populace, and would spend much more time than average doing dedicated combat training. They would likely be more knowledgeable about esoteric things technical things they may have read about. They will be better trained in social niceties and benefit from such when interacting with NPCs. 

A Noble would have disadvantages on many practically useful physical tasks because they simply haven't done them very much. They may be accustomed to more comfortable living conditions which are no longer available, and feel impaired by their absence. They will lack practical knowledge when it comes to most forms of foraging and agriculture, and likely have less understanding of simple tools and mechanisms that a peasant would interact with regularly. They may come across as aloof and unsympathetic to NPCs, to their detriment. 

Bashing those two descriptions against each other, I get speed and melee damage boosts and no penalty to ranged attacks, but a hefty penalty to foraging, crop, and animal harvests, and mining speed/yields, as well as increased hunger rates and maybe some custom craftable nicknacks or a trade bonus. Basically a pure combat class which will struggle mightily to support itself, which is about right for a warrior aristocrat cut loose from the social structure he was installed near the top of. 

Pretty much. The general idea I had when writing up the above concept is that the Noble could act as the classic monster-slaying medieval hero, with specific bonuses toward equipment upkeep and fighting bosses/minibosses, but faring rather poorly when it comes to "peasant work". As for how such a class interacts with NPCs, they don't necessarily have to be rude, as much as they could be just friendly but wildly disconnected. Kind of like the usual stereotypes of city people visiting rural friends/relatives and having no clue about what happens on a farm, or the stereotypes of rich people not understanding how the middle/lower classes live.

As far as harvesting penalties though...while it makes sense for the most part, I could see them perhaps getting a boost to hunting specific animals, mainly the tougher ones. Hunting was a favorite activity of nobility, especially larger "trophy" animals like bears, bucks, large boars, etc.

[Broccoli Clock]

The sling simply shouldn't be class locked.

I don't mind class locking, per se, I think it works well in an MP environment, and most things can be bought from traders if you are not of a certain class in SP.

However, this is a bit of cloth that is used to chuck a stone. There is no reason for that to be "special hidden knowledge". It's like games that ask you to unlock perks that involve very basic tasks (looking at you 7 Days, you can burn meat, but you need the perk to grill it. My brother in Christ, what step is before burnt meat, grilled meat, you should not need to unlock a perk that, like Cher, turns back time!).

Recursive bow, locked for the Hunter? Sure that makes sense. Complex clothing, locked behind the Tailor? Again, totally fine. A rag that is swung around your head, locked to any class? No, that's daft.

[williams_482]

A sling is easy to create, but quite difficult to use properly. There's a reason that slingers in ancient armies tended to be from a handful of very specific regions (like the Balearic islands off the east coast of Spain) with a reputation for producing excellent slingers. "Twirl a rock over your head and release it at a target" sounds relatively simple, but it's quite difficult to do that accurately and for an inexperienced slinger the chance of the rock flying off in a random other direction is pretty high. This is likely also why slingers are so rare in movie reproductions of ancient warfare: it's really difficult to find extras who can use even prop slings safely and believably. 

The realistic way to go about this would be to make the sling craftable by anyone, but only useable by the Malefactor. Except that's pointless; why would you let the player craft a useful-seeming item they actually can't use? So if you think it's usage should be restricted, locking it behind the crafting recipe makes the most in-game sense. 

[Broccoli Clock]

34 minutes ago, williams_482 said:

The realistic way to go about this would be to make the sling craftable by anyone, but only useable by the Malefactor. Except that's pointless; why would you let the player craft a useful-seeming item they actually can't use? So if you think it's usage should be restricted, locking it behind the crafting recipe makes the most in-game sense. 

For me, one solution to the single player class locking (other than buying shit at a trader, or using a console command to remove those limitations) would allow you to craft the item but there are buffs from using it within your class. Anyone can craft a sling, but only the Malefactor gets the most out of it.

The same could be said for other weapons, say the recursive bow, but I'm not sure if it could be applied to other classes though. A tailor would make nicer clothes than a commoner, but would those clothes be "less warm", "less durable"? Perhaps, doesn't feel right though.

[LadyWYT]

1 hour ago, Broccoli Clock said:

A tailor would make nicer clothes than a commoner, but would those clothes be "less warm", "less durable"? Perhaps, doesn't feel right though.

The case could be made for less durability since tailors, thanks to their clothing knowledge, would be able to make better repairs and know when to make those repairs sooner. Which more durable clothes makes more sense for Tailor than more durable armor, in many ways...

2 hours ago, williams_482 said:

The realistic way to go about this would be to make the sling craftable by anyone, but only useable by the Malefactor. Except that's pointless; why would you let the player craft a useful-seeming item they actually can't use? So if you think it's usage should be restricted, locking it behind the crafting recipe makes the most in-game sense. 

This is the issue the tuning spear runs into. With class-exclusive recipes turned off, anyone can craft it, but it's still an item only useful for Clockmaker since the locust-taming function is still tied to the Clockmaker class, despite needing the item as well. I presume it's that way to prevent Clockmakers from making tuning spears for everyone else and thus having locusts for everyone.