Make firepits without tools

[Broccoli Clock]

1 minute ago, MKMoose said:

And to top it off, whether tools came before or after fire is only relevant to Homo Sapiens.

Man's descendents were using tools before Homo Sapiens appeared, with most evidence suggesting Australopithecus. As for fire, it's pretty much Homo Sapiens that domesticated it.

Now that's all good and all, but in regard to the lore of the Seraphs, I have no idea at all. I'm not someone who leans into fantasy. So I will totally defer to your opinion on that.

[Rainbow Fresh]

1 minute ago, Broccoli Clock said:

Man's descendents were using tools before Homo Sapiens appeared, with most evidence suggesting Australopithecus. As for fire, it's pretty much Homo Sapiens that domesticated it.

Now that's all good and all, but in regard to the lore of the Seraphs, I have no idea at all. I'm not someone who leans into fantasy. So I will totally defer to your opinion on that.

I feel like they mean the gamemode where there is no previous civilization and as such, noone invented anything before us.

[Teh Pizza Lady]

1 hour ago, Demoncyborg said:

I think the only reason I'm against sticks specifically for fire is because there's no vanilla crafting for them. They aren't finite but they're much, much better spent on tools and recipes rather than fuel at any point. its not a huge reasoning but teaching the player at the start to use sticks might make a waste of sticks. Peat/charcoal to start your pit sounds great

 Aren't sticks also a required component in pit kiln construction, along with grass? Because pottery is a pretty massive thing to allow the player to freely do without ever making or using a knife.

I think the real issue here isn't the construction of firepits with sticks and grass harvested without a knife. The real issue is the fact that allowing the player to harvest grass without a knife allows them to ENTIRELY SKIP THE STONE AGE. With OP's proposed "simple" change, the player can now gather all the grass and sticks they need to construct a pit kiln which can be fueled with peat (or charcoal for faster firing times). And here's the kicker. Charcoal is now able to be freely produced without ever making a knife because it also has a grass requirement for getting the fire going and that grass requirement is now also toolless. Although charcoal is made with firewood which DOES require an axe......

.............But a copper axe head can be cast directly without ever picking up or using a knife. Here's how that would be done:

1. Punch grass to harvest it
2. Stuff into pit kilns with axe mold, pickaxe mold, hammer mold and crucible
3. Pile on sticks
4. Cover in peat
5. Light with torch or firestarter
   and wait...
   and then....
6. Use loose bits of coal from the ground to smelt loose bits of copper from the ground
7. Pour molten copper into axe mold
8. Use axe to chop trees and make firewood and get a charcoal pit going
9. Use pickaxe to harvest more copper
10. Use hammer to crush ore bits
11. Use charcoal to smelt the rest of the copper, fuel your pitkilns, make the rest of your molds (anvil mold anyone??) and get a proper smithing setup

All without touching a single knife. And it can be done with bronze, too, allowing a player to skip right to iron, even, without touching a single knife.

How is this a "simple" change? It isn't. It's game-breaking.

I think instead of allowing tool-less harvesting of grass, a better solution would be to allow the player to pick moss off trees and rocks and use that as a replacement for grass when making a firestarter. Moss is historically documented as tinder and has genuine fire starting properties. It would, of course, be hard to find and even harder to obtain due to its delicate nature, making it a genuine last resort for survival rather than a convenient shortcut. It's an alternative for players who can't find flint to make a knife or who are looking for an additional challenge all without overtly affecting the progression chain for everyone else who plays the game.

As a bonus, moss could have additional uses that make it worth seeking out at any stage of the game. Its well-documented historical antiseptic properties make it a natural candidate for wound dressing or the creation of poultices. It could also serve as an insulation material to be sewn into clothing for extra cold resistance. 

Moss would genuinely add something new to the game, giving it more depth instead of removing the basic need to rub two rocks together to make a knife.

[MKMoose]

30 minutes ago, Teh Pizza Lady said:

 Aren't sticks also a required component in pit kiln construction, along with grass? Because pottery is a pretty massive thing to allow the player to freely do without ever making or using a knife.

I think the real issue here isn't the construction of firepits with sticks and grass harvested without a knife. The real issue is the fact that allowing the player to harvest grass without a knife allows them to ENTIRELY SKIP THE STONE AGE. With OP's proposed "simple" change, the player can now gather all the grass and sticks they need to construct a pit kiln which can be fueled with peat (or charcoal for faster firing times). And here's the kicker. Charcoal is now able to be freely produced without ever making a knife because it also has a grass requirement for getting the fire going and that grass requirement is now also toolless. Although charcoal is made with firewood which DOES require an axe......

.............But a copper axe head can be cast directly without ever picking up or using a knife. Here's how that would be done:

1. Punch grass to harvest it
2. Stuff into pit kilns with axe mold, pickaxe mold, hammer mold and crucible
3. Pile on sticks
4. Cover in peat
5. Light with torch or firestarter
   and wait...
   and then....
6. Use loose bits of coal from the ground to smelt loose bits of copper from the ground
7. Pour molten copper into axe mold
8. Use axe to chop trees and make firewood and get a charcoal pit going
9. Use pickaxe to harvest more copper
10. Use hammer to crush ore bits
11. Use charcoal to smelt the rest of the copper, fuel your pitkilns, make the rest of your molds (anvil mold anyone??) and get a proper smithing setup

All without touching a single knife. And it can be done with bronze, too, allowing a player to skip right to iron, even, without touching a single knife.

How is this a "simple" change? It isn't. It's game-breaking.

You can also skip straight to copper or bronze from nothing by buying tools from traders or finding them in ruins, and you can produce steel while completely ignoring pickaxe tier requirements if you get sulfur for bombs (or even without ever using a pickaxe if you buy sulfur from traders), but none of these are game-breaking, because theoretical possibility isn't relevant to natural and practical progression.

Not everything has to revolve around the core technological succession chain, and knives are still required for harvesting animals, collecting cattails, scraping leather, and some crafting recipes. It doesn't really matter that the player  can break a preconceived mandatory progression chain while handicapping themselves by refusing to craft what is arguably the most basic tool in the game.

Edited 11 hours ago by MKMoose

[Teh Pizza Lady]

7 minutes ago, MKMoose said:

You can also skip straight to copper or bronze from nothing by buying tools from traders or finding them in ruins, and you can produce steel with mostly Copper-Age tools (except an anvil and a hammer, if I recall correctly) if you get sulfur for bombs (or even without ever using a pickaxe if you buy sulfur from traders), but none of these are game-breaking, because theoretical possibility isn't relevant to natural and practical progression.

Not everything has to revolve around the core technological succession chain, and knives are still required for harvesting animals, collecting cattails, scraping leather, and some crafting recipes. It doesn't really matter that the player  can break a preconceived mandatory progression chain while handicapping themselves by refusing to craft what is arguably the most basic tool in the game.

In that case, let the player be rewarded for their efforts and ingenuity!

There is no effort to be found in removing the basic requirement of a simple flint knife to harvest grass. It's not a genius solution to bypass the basic requirement of "cut grass; build fire" model that we have to advancing through the tech tree.

Obtaining the items for trade will require a significant amount of luck and/or time. That's not nothing.

Otherwise, I agree with you. Not everything has to start with the stone age, but the alternative path to iron and steel shouldn't be a shortcut.

Edited 11 hours ago by Teh Pizza Lady

[PineReseen]

Stick or other material firepits are definitely a thing that should be added. Like, say I'm starving, and killed a deer. Now, to cook and eat that meat I'm gonna have to chop down a tree, convert one log into firewood, and only then start building a firepit. Now I'm left with a bunch of logs I don't need, even though sticks are common and I carry them with me all the time. Sure, a deer's worth of redmeat could warrant firewood, but if I instead had gone for a wolf pup or something (Canada-climate winters can get really crazy, y'know) then I'd probably not need 4 firewood to cook a single piece of bushmeat.

As for the grass thing, I don't particularly care. If I had to add it, then I'd probably make it like a 50% chance for dropping dry grass upon breaking grass with no tools.

[DeanF]

Oh, the hyperbole in this discussion! 
Nothing is "game-breaking" about this.  It's a possible fringe use.  If someone really wants to work that incredibly hard to "skip the stone age" for some reason, what is it to you?  It's a solo game.  And you can already skip the copper age if you get lucky.

Edited 23 minutes ago by DeanF