Make the UI to light a fire more convenient

[Flexbyte]

I think the UI to light a fire is not well optimized and it's putting me off from things. Latest example is that fat now needs rendering to not have an expiration time, so now you need to light a fire to render fat after every trip where you hunted some animal.

It makes sense if in early game lighting a fire requires some work and inconvenience, but it would be much nicer if it were more easy and automatic relatively soon in the game (note that currently I'm in late game and lighting a fire is still the same as before)

Also, I'm talking here about firepits, ovens, forges and so on that you have set up in your camp and already used before. That making a fire in the wilderness takes a bit more work is understandable of course, but I'm talking about convenience in your camp/home/...

Here are the problems, and some of these are purely UI problems

1) Lighting a fire requires opening inventory, dragging torch from inventory to hotbar, then lighting fire with it, then dragging the torch back to inventory. This is my NUMBER ONE complaint. You can't keep the torch in your hotbar because it can randomly un-light when you're in water and scroll through it

Possible solutions to 1:

-allow lighting a fire without torch in hotbar, e.g. have a "light this fire" button in the fire dialog when you open the fire dialog

-have an upgraded version of tinderbox: does not go out in lakes, and does not have a limited use count (or a much higher one) than the early-game tinderbox. HOWEVER I prefer the other solution much more, even this upgraded tinderbox would still have the problem of actually taking up precious space in your hotbar

2) Using fire requires managing how much fuel you put in it, and remembering to remove the fuel when you are gone. This is fun in early game, but when you need fire a lot this repeated inventory management gets annoying

Possible solutions to 2:

-make the fire not consume fuel when not in use, which means: you are not nearby and there's nothing being cooked/heated/... in it: so when you step away form the fire and it has no items, it goes out after a while but the fuel stays (and will not get consumed; the fire is not doing useful work nor heating your body). Next time you are back, you can light it again without having to drag more fuel into it, since there still is some. You no longer have to remember to take OUT the 64 peat when not in use

3) More drastic ideas to improve fire:

-simply have the file be lit when you're nearby and using it. The only requirement is you put enough fuel in it (and refill it every now and then, but at least you can refill it with a few 64 stacks on one go to be good for several days, rather than have to manage adding 1 or 2 pieces to it every time) and have done the ritual of lighting it with a tinderbox once. Obviously this is not realistic, but if your fires and ovens and so on could just be things that you put the item you actually want to heat up in and they work, without losing more fuel than needed and without annoying UI actions like dragging torches around, it'd be so much more fun.

-have a specialized separate inventory spot for torch/tinderbox/...: don't require dragging it to hotbar at all, just have some spot that doesn't take up space in inventory nor hotbar where your highest-tech fire-lighting device can be, and have a certain hotkey or button in the fire dialog that uses it on a fire

Edited Sunday at 11:15 AM by Flexbyte

[Facethief]

Uhhhh… I think you’re going to have to mod that kind of thing in. The UI fire lighting would be moving away from the goal of in-world interaction the devs have been moving towards, and the idea of fire not burning without something cooking in it wouldn’t work well with campfires’ secondary purpose of heating up the area around them.

However, I’d be all for a tinderbox item that uses something like flint, iron nails & strips, a pelt, and grass to act as a faster and more consistent version of the fire starter item for later in the game.

EDIT: actually, I also like the idea of having a key to bring a fire starter into the main hand to light something quickly.

Edited Sunday at 12:15 PM by Facethief

[Demoncyborg]

my personal solution during play is to have a torch holder by my firepit for my fire-lighter. Grab, Light, replace, easy.

[cjameshuff]

I also find the ergonomics of shuffling torches around to be a bit annoying. It isn't difficult in any way to replace something I'm holding for frequent use with something I'm going to use once or a few times and then put it away and put the original item back, but it's tedious, and tedium isn't challenging or fun.

  

1 hour ago, Facethief said:

EDIT: actually, I also like the idea of having a key to bring a fire starter into the main hand to light something quickly.

Or more generically, an alternate context-dependent action that only requires you to have an ignition source in your inventory. Perhaps a better way to select one of a menu of actions. This is something of a general problem, with various combinations of crouching and shift-clicking required to achieve the desired actions, and frequent bugs where the intended action is blocked (look at the problems with putting tools in the forge for tempering/quenching).

 

[Rainbow Fresh]

No offense, but if equiping a torch to light a fire is too much hassle and you'd rather have mechanics that don't require you to play the game, then you probably chose the wrong game. Thinking about it, 7D2D has about exactly the firepit mechanics that you described.

As for the individual suggestions:
1: So what I am reading here is that you'd rather have a magical UI button that lights the fire from thin air, as the only way you don't even need a "tinderbox taking up a precious inventory space" is to not require anything to light a fire at all. That would be both a gross under-development of an exiting gameplay mechanic and the most unrealistic thing possible - ever tried to light a fire with your bare hands and sheer willpower? Vintage Story might canonically have Sci-Fi teleporters but we don't have fire magic.

2: Again, most I can say to that is that removing any and all gameplay elements tied to one of the most core mechanics present throughout all phases of the game is the equivalent to cutting a limb off of your game's methaphorical body just because you don't like scratching when it itches. And also, ever tried putting a big stack of wood into a lit campfire at once in real life? Or tried telling it to stop burning cause you don't need it right now? It's why gas or electrical stoves/ovens were invented - which might be a much more fruitful direction to investigate in to solve your issue of "too much work constantly lighting fires" but simulateanously probably still a solution requiring modding, as the game's intended scope does not seem to go that far into modern technology.

3: That... doesn't even make sense anymore. What classifies as "simply nearby and using it"? Having the firepit UI actively open and stuff inside? I don't think being forced to look at the entire cooking process of virtually anything is a better use of your time than the 5 seconds of lighting the fire yourself. Otherwise this sounds like a copy of 2.

EDIT:

2 hours ago, Facethief said:

EDIT: actually, I also like the idea of having a key to bring a fire starter into the main hand to light something quickly.

3 minutes ago, cjameshuff said:

Or more generically, an alternate context-dependent action that only requires you to have an ignition source in your inventory.

Now those, on the other hand, could be much easier implemented without lobotomizing the entire mechanic. Although the latter still feels, to me, like too big of a simplification to become base game material.

Edited Sunday at 02:39 PM by Rainbow Fresh
Added mid-writing replies

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

allow lighting a fire without torch in hotbar, e.g. have a "light this fire" button in the fire dialog when you open the fire dialog

Echoing what others have already said, this doesn't really fit with what the current design philosophy seems to be--that is, the player is supposed to be actually performing the actions to accomplish tasks, and not just clicking a button to make the magic happen. It's at least partly why stuff like scraping pelts on the ground or crushing ore on the ground with a hammer is being introduced.

I would also note that allowing the player to click a button to light a fire provided they have a torch/firestarter in their inventory is probably also going to lead to exploits, particularly with the firestarter since it can take a few tries to actually get a fire going with one. Clicking a button to do so is likely to be instant fire, which kinda defeats the purpose.

3 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

have an upgraded version of tinderbox: does not go out in lakes, and does not have a limited use count (or a much higher one) than the early-game tinderbox.

I wouldn't mind seeing a proper tinderbox though, or more durable firestarter in the form of flint and steel.

 

3 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

Using fire requires managing how much fuel you put in it, and remembering to remove the fuel when you are gone.

I mean...that's fairly realistic to how fires work though, minus removing the fuel once it's been added.

 

3 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

-make the fire not consume fuel when not in use, which means: you are not nearby and there's nothing being cooked/heated/... in it: so when you step away form the fire and it has no items, it goes out after a while but the fuel stays (and will not get consumed; the fire is not doing useful work nor heating your body). Next time you are back, you can light it again without having to drag more fuel into it, since there still is some. You no longer have to remember to take OUT the 64 peat when not in use

No. The fire shouldn't magically stop burning just because the player walked away--that could easily lead to potential exploits, or player frustration in the event they walked away to do something else while items were heating only to return and find nothing happened because they walked a little too far away. And if nothing is cooking in the fire and the player isn't warming themselves...why would the fire still be fueled in the first place?

I get that sometimes players forget about fires and waste fuel--I did this yesterday when smelting copper and had to resmelt. However, paying attention to what you're doing and planning actions carefully is a major part of what makes Vintage Story an uncompromising survival game.

3 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

simply have the file be lit when you're nearby and using it. The only requirement is you put enough fuel in it (and refill it every now and then, but at least you can refill it with a few 64 stacks on one go to be good for several days, rather than have to manage adding 1 or 2 pieces to it every time) and have done the ritual of lighting it with a tinderbox once. Obviously this is not realistic, but if your fires and ovens and so on could just be things that you put the item you actually want to heat up in and they work, without losing more fuel than needed and without annoying UI actions like dragging torches around, it'd be so much more fun.

No, for similar reasons as above. This is more fitting to Minecraft, and not a game that is supposed to be heavily based in realism and focused on uncompromising survival. Part of that realism is learning how to manage fires and fuel wisely to accomplish what you need to do.

[cjameshuff]

4 minutes ago, Rainbow Fresh said:

Although the latter still feels, to me, like too big of a simplification to become base game material.

Look at it this way: would you swap an item on your toolbelt for a torch out of your backpack so you can then take the torch from your belt to ignite something, or would you just grab the torch, ignite the thing, and put it back? It's not an additional crafting step where you're making the thing you need to accomplish the goal, you're just shuffling items around in your inventory. Should thinking about your inventory be a critical part of lighting a fire?

[Rainbow Fresh]

9 minutes ago, cjameshuff said:

Look at it this way: would you swap an item on your toolbelt for a torch out of your backpack so you can then take the torch from your belt to ignite something, or would you just grab the torch, ignite the thing, and put it back? It's not an additional crafting step where you're making the thing you need to accomplish the goal, you're just shuffling items around in your inventory. Should thinking about your inventory be a critical part of lighting a fire?

Having a button that swaps a firestarter source into your active hotbat slot is a deliberate action that involves the whole 0.1s of moving your finger to press the button more than just sourcing any kind of firestarter source from your inventory. On the other hand, still having the clear distinction of "Yes, I want my firestarter and yes, I want to now use it" is a more immersive message than just "just light the fire". Because actions have a purpose, otherwise you would not need to do them in the first place. Therefor I think a swap hotkey would be the most balanced option for both sides.

12 minutes ago, cjameshuff said:

or would you just grab the torch, ignite the thing, and put it back?

Based on this, here is another suggestion:
The option to ignite things having the firestarter in your mouse cursor slot. Like the interaction you can have with the world by clicking on the block you want to interact with when any primary focus UI is open - but you interact with what is on your mouse cursor slot, not what is on your selected hotbar slot. (If that's already possible I am sorry, never really used that mechanic for anything other than grinding stuff in a quern.) That would give you that deliberate "Just take it to do the job" interaction while maintaining the deliverate interaction in the first place. Cut's down on inventory shuffling tedium, doesn't require yet more hotkeys to bind and keeps the core mechanic intact.

Aside from this, as mentioned by multiple people before, I am totally in favor of more options for firestarters, as torches will be eventually outclassed by a lantern and are annoying to have "randomly" go out.

[Flexbyte]

2 hours ago, Demoncyborg said:

my personal solution during play is to have a torch holder by my firepit for my fire-lighter. Grab, Light, replace, easy.

But that still requires having a free slot in the hotbar, right? Which is almost impossible to have, if you don't actively have lots of tools there (which I do), anything that gets picked up fills it automatically. There's no way to get a free slot there without having to open the inventory and drag something

Edited Sunday at 03:13 PM by Flexbyte

[Flexbyte]

Actually probably just having a second hotbar that you can easily swap between (e.g pressing the x button to swap between them) would solve a lot of this. Maybe some toolbelt item or so that gives this...

[Demoncyborg]

6 minutes ago, Flexbyte said:

But that still requires having a free slot in the hotbar, right? Which is almost impossible to have, if you don't actively have lots of tools there (which I do), anything that gets picked up fills it automatically. There's no way to get a free slot there without having to open the inventory and drag something

I think that's just a normal part of the physical aspects of the game though, you need your knife out to scrape hides, fuel types for your ovens kilns bloomeries and more, clay to form, wax for the crocks, a hoe to till, shears to trim. You can't possibly have them all on your hotbar at all times, you're gonna have to rummage around that inventory, and use your tool racks in the meantime.

A mod for a torch hotkey sounds great I won't lie, but your problem sounds solved a little more by personal inventory management to me.

I like the extra hotbar suggestion with a toolbelt. there's a mod out there with tons of belts and pockets that let you add things like a knife, your sling, your ammo, ect, all to a hotkey press. But, all the hotkey press does is open another inventory for you to grab that item with (and if your hotbar is full, I think you toss the held item on the ground, in favor of the one you just grabbed.) I think it's Quivers and Sheaths. Something like that could help with your hotbar and tool management if you're okay with it just opening another inventory, really.

Is the firestarter not a good solution that fits within your hotbar problems? You'd just be trading off an always-instant light for a firestarter that works practically anywhere no matter what.

[Byrnorthil]

13 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

Lighting a fire requires opening inventory, dragging torch from inventory to hotbar, then lighting fire with it, then dragging the torch back to inventory. This is my NUMBER ONE complaint. You can't keep the torch in your hotbar because it can randomly un-light when you're in water and scroll through it

I'm not really sure why you'd carry a torch with you past the first few days unless you simply can't get a better light? The moment I get oil lamps I replace the torch as my carry light precisely because they're immune to water. As DemonCyborg suggested I keep torches placed on walls as static installments at home, and always have one next to my firepits and one next to my forges. It is a little annoying to deal with them before you have torch holders, but once you have those they honestly couldn't be simpler.

9 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

But that still requires having a free slot in the hotbar, right? Which is almost impossible to have, if you don't actively have lots of tools there (which I do), anything that gets picked up fills it automatically. There's no way to get a free slot there without having to open the inventory and drag something

I don't even know... skill issue? You really don't need your hotbar full of much of anything while you're home, and the game has tool racks, armor stands, and similar to allow you to easily offload your stuff when it's not in use. The only hotbar slots I keep filled at all times is slot #1 for a weapon, so that in case an enemy spawns in front of my face I can kill it, and a slot for food. If you're having inventory management problems I'd highly suggest asking yourself "What do I need to have on me for what I'm about to do?" If that's forging, it means food, tongs, a hammer, the ingots or blooms to work, fuel, and a torch (if you don't already have one parked at the forge). That's literally all you need to have in your hotbar; anything else is unnecessary. If you're going caving, you'll need food, a weapon, pick, prospecting pick, light source, poultices, and rope ladders and/or blocks. That's significantly more to keep track of, but it's not your entire hotbar and you still have some flex slots to use on whatever else you think you might want, or to swap with your inventory.

[Flexbyte]

> The moment I get oil lamps I replace the torch as my carry light precisely because they're immune to water.

I have a silver lined lantern. But it can't light fires. Even if it could, it's in my left hand and the game doesn't have UI to light a fire with your left hand item either.

Perhaps that would be the solution actually: allow left-hand fire lighting, and allow lanterns to also light it

[Byrnorthil]

2 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

I have a silver lined lantern. But it can't light fires.

If you have a lantern then you don't need to keep a torch on you at all, since I presume you can craft torch holders at this point. Have torch holders in places where you need to start fires, pick em up when you need, and put em right back when you're done.

2 hours ago, Flexbyte said:

Perhaps that would be the solution actually: allow left-hand fire lighting, and allow lanterns to also light it

Left-hand lighting wouldn't be bad if it's worth the dev time but it's also not necessary since you can always just press X to swap hands. Lanterns definitely shouldn't light though because their whole deal is being closed off.