Chapter 3 Theory

[Kosti]

(I posted this on reddit already, but just opened the forums and realized there is a category for this, so I felt like leaving it here.)

Note! This will contain spoilers from chapters 1 and two from the lore, so if you are a new player, decide for yourself. I suggest experiencing them yourself, though.

 

 

 

When chapter 2 ends, Tobias tells us his research will take a decade or two. Now ofc that is a funny way the dev team tells us to chill out and wait, but what if they actually meant it?

Not irl waiting 10 years ofc, I mean what if Tobias really does take a long time to advance, like a chapter or two? After all, Jonas was the smart inventor scientist, Tobias, not so much.

Here comes the theory. In one of the early updates, we could spawn the Erel and give it stay and follow commands. The devs LOVE to send us on massive journeys, understandably so. But a constant complaint is the fact that there's still no reason to go to the North winter tundras or Southern deserts.

I believe Chapter 3 will be the setup for the real game changer - Chapter 4 (also half season if we assume the lore is 8 chapters and that there are 8 chapters on it for a reason) (but second also, Chapter 4 would be enough playtime (like easily 200+ hours of playtime on a save to give us something MASSIVE). So what better than chapter 3 having us go to Tobias who tells us this will actually take a while, so in that time we should go to The Spoil, The Cardinals and the big one - The Quiet.

The spoils are two options realistically - either a rotten, forgotten place that's basically a mass graveyard (which would be cool as to make us realize the effect and scale of The Rot), or it could be a cave with riches. I believe, however, it's going to be more likely the second. *In memoriam* lore piece gives us the journal of someone literate, writing back to his *dear F*. First he is stripped of his riches. What happens to them is unknown, we know some lords still stayed above ground even in ruin and never gave up their former lifestyle. Not to mention the Hanseatic league, first made of merchants, which is likely going to play an important part of the story in a later chapter. So what if The Spoil is where all the riches went, for a secret plan Jonas and Tobias had (since they were deeply passionate about helping everyone, not just the lords) to give out the riches if they won against the Rot to everyone. Maybe just a storage for the rich to collect their things if they survived, but I believe it makes sense.

Then comes the Cardinal. Before continuing, I believe where the person in memoriam was stationed was the Lazaret, also in the "world has shifted" dialogue from the resonator, the Spoils are mentioned before the Lazaret, so it would make sense these are connected. Also it seems like the treasure hunter is only reliable about the Quiet. So what is the Cardinal? Truthfully I don't know, maybe some lore hints at it, I haven't found a connection. It could if we base it off it's name either a holy place, or a big cartography stronghold with maps of different places. There is an issue, maps would be useless with most lore places discovered by now and thats what the Resonans Archive kind of served for anyways. It's more likely a holy place, I think it will serve as a setup to our travel to the Quiet. Perhaps we find a part of a machine there and we need to find the second part in the Quiet, where the one who had the other part was sent for whatever reason.

The Quiet. It's going to be a bossbattle we all know that, every chapter so far had one, and it'd be a shame for this one not to have it. What if "the Quiet" was a place where all the machinery that failed was sent. When they started to begin to act autonomous, ofc they did something to the machines, but what? Deconstruct them? They didn't have that time, no, I believe that's where they got sent, and since the malefactor already had to go to the surface, perhaps that was their job. Go into land take by the Rot, perhaps previously a structure made with a different purpose and put the broken machinery there. Since it'd be far from the main Jonas project, the machines would hardly be influenced by his work and just be left to stay quietly. So perhaps an important piece of machinery also happened to go there, something let's say that COULD tame the Erel? I mean the devs literally added functionality for it to follow player commands like cmon, it has to happen, and we already got the glider for flying.

I believe after so long, it would be a MASSIVE machine merger, influenced by temporal storm or a grotesque (everything will be grotesque on second thought) swift being, ofc it could be the second, but we already got that with the Erel, and I believe it's a good times for the devs to prep us for a fight with Dave anyways. So we have to fight it, this time kill it (like cmon, we haven't killed one boss, it's about time.) Perhaps it was an abandoned mine and with a few bombs we blow the place up, taking the machinery from it's corpse. Or maybe our bombs are enough to kill it, like seriously, we have gunpowder and know how to make bombs, **GIVE US A BOSSBATTLE WHERE EITHER SIDE CAN DIE.** Jokes aside, when we get that piece we return to Tobias who says he didn't think that machinery would ever be found, was lost in a theft or something, so he repairs it, maybe after we retrieved the blueprint from one of the new locations, or perhaps a return to the resonance archive? And after he fixes it he tells us to go to the Erel.

Huge theory - yes, I've not gone lightly, but here it can get crazy, and I think it should, cuz it'd be amazing - this time when we travel through time we hear Tobias speaking (could be text above the HUD) with someone, as we go higher (I mean elevator is the only issue here, but they could force a cutscene or say the Erel strikes at the tower seeing us again, destroying the elevator.) And as we climb we find out he was talking with Jonas, who is alive after all. Now hiding, not wanting to be associated with anything he did, unlike Tobias who didn't give up on everything, Jonas did and blames himself for the Seraphs disappearance, and the future return of the Rot.

We tame the Erel eventually and fly back to Tobias who we force to give us answers.

If somehow that happens then Chapter 4 will be a journey on the Erel either South or North, so players finally have a reason to move trough climate zones, but also moving fast enough, and also to create outposts at different places, which would be super cool when you think about it, having an actual reason to leave your base and make outposts for journeys! We find Jonas and have the entire chapter 4 doing quests, finding other villages (super cool to see villages in different biomes) and whatnot to convince him to help Tobias. He agrees and returns only to find Tobias is gone OR finally we get introduced to the real important and full of secrets lore piece - someone from the Hanseatic league with Tobias in the cave, and they, they remember both Jonas and Tobias for who they were, warning that far away the Rot is returning.

Ofc, this is just a theory, a game theory, but it would be insanely cool. And I'd be happy if I guessed even one thing right. Otherwise, I'd also be happy the story is so twisted I guessed nothing right. There is no lose, cuz this game is amazing! Thanks for reading

[LadyWYT]

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

The spoils are two options realistically - either a rotten, forgotten place that's basically a mass graveyard (which would be cool as to make us realize the effect and scale of The Rot), or it could be a cave with riches. I believe, however, it's going to be more likely the second. *In memoriam* lore piece gives us the journal of someone literate, writing back to his *dear F*. First he is stripped of his riches. What happens to them is unknown, we know some lords still stayed above ground even in ruin and never gave up their former lifestyle. Not to mention the Hanseatic league, first made of merchants, which is likely going to play an important part of the story in a later chapter. So what if The Spoil is where all the riches went, for a secret plan Jonas and Tobias had (since they were deeply passionate about helping everyone, not just the lords) to give out the riches if they won against the Rot to everyone. Maybe just a storage for the rich to collect their things if they survived, but I believe it makes sense.

I really doubt it's this one. "In Memoriam" is an interesting little side piece describing in detail some of what was actually occurring in the Lazaret, and is found in a hidden alcove in a treasure chest that also contains a golden monkey statue and some other riches, which are the riches described in that journal entry. The story itself was written by a commoner, who disguised himself as a noble to sneak into the Lazaret since he believed it would save him, and was addressed to his father.

As for the Old World nobility in general, it's generally implied that many of them ignored Jonas and did their own thing, perishing with the Rot or perhaps paying to secure a spot in places like the Lazaret, hoping that special treatment would save them. Others seem to have been part of the Forlorn Hope, giving their lives to defend Jonas's grand project from desperate, infected outsiders that would threaten it. There were probably others who were aligned with Jonas that did survive, or perhaps some that sailed with the Hanseatic League and survived that way. We don't entirely know for sure. That being said, I wouldn't be surprised if there were a surviving few that clung to the old ways of nobility and tried to carve out kingdoms for themselves, as had once existed in the Old World. The Spoils may be some kind of treasure horde in that regard, whether riches or lost knowledge or both, but it could be something else entirely. All we know of the location, aside from the name, is that the traders consider it a dreadful place and advise steering clear of it.

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

The Quiet. It's going to be a bossbattle we all know that

No, actually, we don't know that. Every story chapter so far has had a boss battle, but not every story location has a boss to battle. Nadiya and the Lazaret were both included in the same list of names as Quiet, but neither one contained a boss fight.

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

What if "the Quiet" was a place where all the machinery that failed was sent. When they started to begin to act autonomous, ofc they did something to the machines, but what? Deconstruct them? They didn't have that time, no, I believe that's where they got sent, and since the malefactor already had to go to the surface, perhaps that was their job. Go into land take by the Rot, perhaps previously a structure made with a different purpose and put the broken machinery there. Since it'd be far from the main Jonas project, the machines would hardly be influenced by his work and just be left to stay quietly. So perhaps an important piece of machinery also happened to go there, something let's say that COULD tame the Erel? I mean the devs literally added functionality for it to follow player commands like cmon, it has to happen, and we already got the glider for flying.

It could be this kind of place, but there's nothing currently to suggest that's what the Quiet is. Personally, I tend to think of a monastery or library in regards to that name--a quiet, solitary place away from prying eyes that is a good spot for thinking and planning. 

Regarding the Erel, I wouldn't be surprised if it makes a return later. I don't know anything about it having player commands, but there was an uncorrupted version of the creature in addition to the corrupted version that we fight. We also don't actually kill the Erel at the tower either--we only damage it enough to prompt it to fly away, and there's no body to find afterwards. That would suggest that it may still be lurking out there, somewhere.

That being said, as cool as it would be to have Erel as a flying vehicle, I don't think it should be a flying machine that the player can control. As a special travel for a specific plot point to specific locations? Sure. But flight, especially controlled flight, is an incredibly powerful ability, and one that can easily break the game. The elytra from Minecraft is a rather notorious example of how badly such a thing can unbalance a game.

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

Then comes the Cardinal. Before continuing, I believe where the person in memoriam was stationed was the Lazaret, also in the "world has shifted" dialogue from the resonator, the Spoils are mentioned before the Lazaret, so it would make sense these are connected. Also it seems like the treasure hunter is only reliable about the Quiet. So what is the Cardinal? Truthfully I don't know, maybe some lore hints at it, I haven't found a connection. It could if we base it off it's name either a holy place, or a big cartography stronghold with maps of different places. There is an issue, maps would be useless with most lore places discovered by now and thats what the Resonans Archive kind of served for anyways. It's more likely a holy place, I think it will serve as a setup to our travel to the Quiet. Perhaps we find a part of a machine there and we need to find the second part in the Quiet, where the one who had the other part was sent for whatever reason.

It's heavily implied that the author of "In Memoriam" died, having contracted the Rot from the noblewoman he pushed into the cesspit.

As for the Cardinals, all we know is that the trader mentions it being some kind of gathering place. That could be a religious site, or some kind of crossroads for the main travel routes of the new world, or if every remaining human settlement has the same general stories about the coming "true storm" it could be a designated global meeting spot.

I would also note that maps wouldn't necessarily be useless. Maps of the Old World wouldn't be useful for navigation, sure, but would definitely be items of interest to historians and collectors. Maps of the new world, however, would likely be very useful, though there's nothing to suggest that every lore location has been discovered. For gameplay reasons, yes, the player is likely going to be able to obtain a map from someone who's aware of the location, but otherwise there's quite a lot that just isn't known. To use the Resonance Archive itself as an example: Tobias knows about it because he's one of the few original survivors of the Old World with intact memories, but no longer knows where it is since the land got scrambled. The treasure hunter the player talks to knows where it is, because they conveniently happened to have been in the area and discovered the entrance, but since they didn't really explore the place they don't know what it is other than some sort of major ruin that likely has valuables inside.

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

I believe it's a good times for the devs to prep us for a fight with Dave anyways.

Personally, I don't believe we need to fight Dave. Some things are best left as background mysteries, and Dave is one such thing. That's a big reason why Dave remains interesting and rather spooky--he's just...there...lurking...and it's never really clear what he is or if he's friendly or not.

 

4 hours ago, Kosti said:

Huge theory - yes, I've not gone lightly, but here it can get crazy, and I think it should, cuz it'd be amazing - this time when we travel through time we hear Tobias speaking (could be text above the HUD) with someone, as we go higher (I mean elevator is the only issue here, but they could force a cutscene or say the Erel strikes at the tower seeing us again, destroying the elevator.) And as we climb we find out he was talking with Jonas, who is alive after all. Now hiding, not wanting to be associated with anything he did, unlike Tobias who didn't give up on everything, Jonas did and blames himself for the Seraphs disappearance, and the future return of the Rot.

If you're referring to the Devastation Tower, there's currently nothing to suggest that Jonas was ever there. Tobias and his workers built the place shortly after the events that ruined the Old World, and the strange machinery there was what Tobias used to punch a hole in reality and allow the player(and presumably other allies) to return as seraphs, destroying the Tower and the surrounding lands in the process.

[ifoz]

10 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

I really doubt it's this one. "In Memoriam" is an interesting little side piece describing in detail some of what was actually occurring in the Lazaret, and is found in a hidden alcove in a treasure chest that also contains a golden monkey statue and some other riches, which are the riches described in that journal entry. The story itself was written by a commoner, who disguised himself as a noble to sneak into the Lazaret since he believed it would save him, and was addressed to his father.

Kind of off topic, but just something I've been thinking about in regards to In Memoriam and player character lore;
(I also don't remember if this is something I've talked about on the forums before, but I don't think it is. Pretty sure. )

Ever since I read it I've wondered if In Memoriam was originally planned to be the Malefactor's backstory, before they decided to make player lore more open-ended and never directly confirm anything. It hits most of their established beats - commoner steals something (the fancy garments), sneaks into somewhere (the Lazaret), and then pushes a woman down a pit, killing her but allowing them her food and jewellery ("terrible things are done in the heart of despair - she is gone, but you remain").

This might not be the case at all and personally I'm glad they decided to take player backstory in a more vague direction, but I just thought it was at the least an interesting coincidence.

Tobias also seems sympathetic of the Malefactor, moreso than any of the other classes, which I doubt he'd be if they killed someone in colder blood instead of out of necessity, if that is indeed what they did. While he says he doesn't know their exact crime, I've noticed Vintage Story likes to have NPCs be able to infer certain things/aspects about the player through physical characteristics. For the Malefactor specifically, Sedna says she can tell they have a 'secret', and Kat warns them to watch themselves, as if she can tell by demeanour alone that they're a thief. If their crime was in cold blood (it's kind of debatable if the killing in In Memoriam was out of necessity/self-preservation (starvation) or jealousy), I doubt Tobias would be so glad to see that they survived.

(A little further off topic, but it is kind of interesting that the Malefactor is amongst those who Tobias seems the happiest to see alive. Not that he isn't happy to see the other Seraphs, but for the Malefactor specifically he state's he's "truly glad [they] survived to find [their] freedom again". Given Tobias' already revolutionary stance in the old world, this makes me wonder if the Malefactor wasn't also a rebel, or a member of the Flock).

Anyway, all that to say I think class lore is interesting, and I wonder if In Memoriam's outline was originally written as a prototype for some before they took a different direction and it was rewritten/repurposed.


 

15 hours ago, Kosti said:

I believe Chapter 3 will be the setup for the real game changer - Chapter 4 (also half season if we assume the lore is 8 chapters and that there are 8 chapters on it for a reason) (but second also, Chapter 4 would be enough playtime (like easily 200+ hours of playtime on a save to give us something MASSIVE). So what better than chapter 3 having us go to Tobias who tells us this will actually take a while, so in that time we should go to The Spoil, The Cardinals and the big one - The Quiet.

I'm pretty sure the devs have talked before about eventually adding the other named locations, but as alternate paths to Nadiya. So you could choose to visit the Lazaret, or some of the others instead.
We don't know if that is in reference to every single one of them or just some of them, but it's worth keeping in mind if speculating that the other named locations will be part of future chapters rather than an expansion of chapter 2.

EDIT: This is all speculation, but I wonder if one of them won't be the "Innswood ruins" mentioned in the Ghosts short story. In that story a Seraph asks around a village for directions to "Innswood", unknowing it was overrun decades ago. They way this is worded makes it sound like Innswood was a new world settlement, so their knowledge of it couldn't have come from old maps. I speculate it might be that this Seraph came across one of Tobias' letters, and was directed to Innswood by it. That'd explain why a Seraph established to be so clueless would have knowledge of the place to begin with, as well as why they'd be searching for it without knowing it is now in ruins.

 

15 hours ago, Kosti said:

And as we climb we find out he was talking with Jonas, who is alive after all. Now hiding, not wanting to be associated with anything he did, unlike Tobias who didn't give up on everything, Jonas did and blames himself for the Seraphs disappearance, and the future return of the Rot.

I have my own theories regarding Jonas, mostly around the fact I doubt the game/writers would let him get out of things unscathed.
Personally I believe that Jonas is in some way, shape or form the "machine god" mentioned in The Morning. In the old world Jonas was seen as a messiah figure, and in the new world Tobias is hailed as a 'saint'. Tobias is also said to "command angels", which could be in reference to his search for the Seraphs.
If the Seraphs are 'angels' and Tobias is a 'saint', it'd make sense for Jonas to be the metaphorical 'god'.

Not to say that Jonas (if he turns up) couldn't still blame himself for the disappearance of the Seraphs and the return of the Rot, but I just doubt he's going to show up as a human or as a Seraph, rather something else entirely.

Edited Monday at 11:56 AM by ifoz

[LadyWYT]

3 hours ago, ifoz said:

Ever since I read it I've wondered if In Memoriam was originally planned to be the Malefactor's backstory, before they decided to make player lore more open-ended and never directly confirm anything. It hits most of their established beats - commoner steals something (the fancy garments), sneaks into somewhere (the Lazaret), and then pushes a woman down a pit, killing her but allowing them her food and jewellery ("terrible things are done in the heart of despair - she is gone, but you remain").

This might not be the case at all and personally I'm glad they decided to take player backstory in a more vague direction, but I just thought it was at the least an interesting coincidence.

 

3 hours ago, ifoz said:

Anyway, all that to say I think class lore is interesting, and I wonder if In Memoriam's outline was originally written as a prototype for some before they took a different direction and it was rewritten/repurposed.

That could very well be, but I do agree that if that is the case, I'm glad they made the player backstory more open-ended. Though I also think it's worth pointing out that the Malefactor, while clearly having done something very wrong, also quite clearly repented of whatever crime it was and did their best to atone for it. The author of "In Memoriam", however, seems to be the opposite--he committed a serious crime for a very selfish reason, and rather than be sorry about it, is angry that the consequences were getting infected with the Rot. Which part of me wonders if perhaps the Rot is a physical manifestation of bad morals, and perhaps progresses faster in those more rife with evil deeds.  It's a bit of a stretch, but if that were the case, it would have some serious implications about certain characters, as well as perhaps explain why the Rot is returning.

 

4 hours ago, ifoz said:

(A little further off topic, but it is kind of interesting that the Malefactor is amongst those who Tobias seems the happiest to see alive. Not that he isn't happy to see the other Seraphs, but for the Malefactor specifically he state's he's "truly glad [they] survived to find [their] freedom again". Given Tobias' already revolutionary stance in the old world, this makes me wonder if the Malefactor wasn't also a rebel, or a member of the Flock).

It's possible, though it could also just be due to Tobias sharing some of the same tendencies as the Malefactor. If I'm recalling correctly, his accounting of how he met Jonas begins with him breaking into the Falx manor intending to steal some food/things he can sell for food and supplies, and getting caught by Jonas. He also later expresses frustration with how slow Jonas's methods are at achieving better lives for the common people, and while Tobias never exactly writes what his plans are in this regard, he does imply that he was close to taking more drastic measures himself. So I wouldn't say he necessarily has the same goals as the Malefactor, but there's definitely some similar background and morality.

Otherwise, I would say it's as simple as Tobias simply having interacted with the player character enough in order to know quite a bit about their personality. He does call us friends, after all, and while he might be very pragmatic, poking a hole in reality and causing some mass destruction as a side effect isn't exactly something one does to bring back individuals they can't rely on to get a job done. Thus I think it's quite likely that he was cautious around the rougher/shadier classes like Malefactor and Blackguard at first, but warmed up to them once he got to know them.

[Kosti]

37 minutes ago, LadyWYT said:

Which part of me wonders if perhaps the Rot is a physical manifestation of bad morals, and perhaps progresses faster in those more rife with evil deeds.  It's a bit of a stretch, but if that were the case, it would have some serious implications about certain characters, as well as perhaps explain why the Rot is returning.

 

6 hours ago, ifoz said:

I have my own theories regarding Jonas, mostly around the fact I doubt the game/writers would let him get out of things unscathed.
Personally I believe that Jonas is in some way, shape or form the "machine god" mentioned in The Morning. In the old world Jonas was seen as a messiah figure, and in the new world Tobias is hailed as a 'saint'. Tobias is also said to "command angels", which could be in reference to his search for the Seraphs.
If the Seraphs are 'angels' and Tobias is a 'saint', it'd make sense for Jonas to be the metaphorical 'god'.

Not to say that Jonas (if he turns up) couldn't still blame himself for the disappearance of the Seraphs and the return of the Rot, but I just doubt he's going to show up as a human or as a Seraph, rather something else entirely.

This is also something I've wondered about, considering how much the game leans on incomprehensible horror as a main narrative theme, it would be cool if the Rot is manifistation of bad morals, but so far we know nothing that could cure it, no one survives it, which is inconsistent if it's based on morals. Everyone's done something bad, but stealing a loaf of bread from a rich nobleman to give to a starving child is arguably not worth a slow death (if anything slower progression actually hurts the person more) so I doubt it's the case. You can say the rotbeasts are extremely bad people, but then animals also become rotbeasts, so it's more likely just suffering causing insanity.
There is also a point for the Rot described as darkness, and so by going in the caverns that are dark, the humans that did it basically cured themselves from their mistakes, while those on the surface that didn't suffer for forgiveness died. But then in one of the lore pieces it's said that this was only a temporary measure until the rot got into the food supply, so that's most likely not the case.

Rather than this, I think it's a fungi, fire-resistant one that just consumes. I mean that's kind of what mushrooms do, and I do believe the Rot is meant to be a take on the Black Death, like a "what if". I know in a lore letter a random guy says the Rot is dead, but I do have an explanation, it communicates like fungi do, not like humans, so it'd be impossible for us to hear it. I believe that Jonas is responsible both for the Prima Materia and somehow knew of the Rot. So far we've been told it affects every living being, before it kills them, it makes some of them monsters. (Before I continue just to have it saved: Jonas' father dies -> Jonas travels with Tobias to the university -> Dmetri Arvo dislikes Jonas. -> Jonas spends years studying and advancing scientific knowledge. -> Jonas finds prima materia and starts making living machines -> Dmetri is made aware of the Rot -> Jonas is made aware of the rot -> Diet of Kings). A strange description by Tobias is that Jonas' face turned pale when he heard of it and he was shaking. Like even if he was creeped out it's oddly specific, like he already knew about the Rot. Also it's strange when Jonas first used the Lens the place he saw shined like gemstone, but by the time Tobias used it, which is likely after he returned (he says "In his time, Jonas said it shone like gemstones" like his time has passed, which if we consider he hasn't made a move after the world reset to a pre-rot state, besides interracting with the Blind Bat Rickhart and being said "a god" in the Morning, means that Jonas sent the Rot and everything else consumed there.) So even after all that time, the best Jonas could think up was to isolate the Rot from his world, it's like he knew about the Rot and how it couldn't be stopped, so he closed himself only with the drive to find a way to cross worlds, rather than cure. This could also explain why he tried to replicate the machines he saw there, knowing he'd forsaken the other world.

I actually have a new theory with all mentioned and more read - Between Tobias' Return and Reflection is a time skip, in Return he says in part 5 he will go with his brothers now, in Return it's implied he was in the Lazaret super sick, likely the one carving some of the wall carvings there. So what if Jonas used his machine twice - first time he did it didn't work as intended but he needed to test it's effects, inadvertently sending the rot to the other world from which he took inspiration, leading to his machines getting corrupted, also making the rot closer to him, affecting Tobias, which led to his fastened attempts to fix it and eventually turning it on for the second time, breaking time itself, causing temporal instability and changing the world, also going back in time. But now the rot corrupted the other world, which on top of all was starting to peek into ours with rifts, the humans that got sent there likely being consumed by the rot, becoming rot monsters, and then with the other world's properties turning into the metal drifters and shivers, and bowtorn, and all that. Meanwhile Seraphim were likely those that interracted closely with the Prima Materia, giving them some sort of resistance, or perhaps leaving them outside of both places and time too. I also think that considering the always turning gears of the other world, it has a ton of prima materia in it, which somehow can resist the rot, explaining why it hasn't corssed into our realm, but eventually it will, with temporality becoming more unstable, which could be caused by a little big machine Jonas made that is still somewhere out in the world doing who knows what, maybe even being a shield against temporal rifts and storms that's getting weaker by the decades. (I'd support this theory with the fact that even if we guess by tapestry, humanity was reset before they could build walls that could protect them from the drifters and all these monsters, the only reason they weren't wiped out isn't because they fought back strongly but because the temporal stability weakened enough to also allow Seraphim to pass back into reality, helping the humans.)

All of that goes to say maybe Jonas is some sort of machine-seraphim merge nowdays as ifoz suggested, that for some reason now only stays near his machine and can't leave, and I do believe we'll be sent to search for him. You make a good point that flight can brake the game, well the Erel could require temporal gears to function for travel, thus making it really expensive, but sitll better than traveling on an Elk for large distances, and I still stand behind the point that the devs need to give us a reason in a normal world to go to the desert/north, which you'd do by foot/elk only if you had a shit ton of time. Flight can clearly be balanced and the Glider is proof.
Also I do like the idea of fighting Dave, just yk, he's too large, so a flying Erel would be perfect to do the job in the background while we fight something else. I get the point that a mystery is more fun than spooky, but he is spooky anyways, I mean an eldrich horror being? It'd be also dissapointing not to at least see him up close, aka remaining a mystery forever.

15 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

and is found in a hidden alcove in a treasure chest that also contains a golden monkey statue and some other riches, which are the riches described in that journal entry.

I didn't know that's where it's found, actually read the story first when translating the wiki lol, so there goes that theory, absolutely fair.

15 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

t could be this kind of place, but there's nothing currently to suggest that's what the Quiet is. Personally, I tend to think of a monastery or library in regards to that name--a quiet, solitary place away from prying eyes that is a good spot for thinking and planning. 

I seem to have confused the Quiet and the Spoils, absolutely my mistake, but reversing the two could still work, the Quiet could 100% be a monastery for thinking aand planning, it could also be a false name for the tapestry of the blackguard stronghold we can find, so it confuses those who try to oppose Jonas. As for the Spoils it is an awful place. Also it seems to have existed from the time before Tobias' tower was constructed, same with the Cardinals, so imo these are mostly likely old dungeons. They could absolutely be other ways to find Nadiya as the devs have apparently said they want other paths towards it. But considering how priority-oriented the devs are, I doubt they'd be making secondary lore changes first mission in chapter 3, if anything, announcing chapter 3 likely means they will focus on going further in the lore, rather than making it non-linear. It is true after all you can't make a line without an end point, not to mention multiple. Perhaps the Spoils were actually a large mine (and since most times we hear words like dreadful and awful it's of people going underground telling of how it was), filled with mining machines that came to life and attacked whoever did go down there a long time ago.
In any case we aren't getting chapter 3 soon, so I can only speculate. But thanks on the feedback of both of you!

[LadyWYT]

4 minutes ago, Kosti said:

There is also a point for the Rot described as darkness, and so by going in the caverns that are dark, the humans that did it basically cured themselves from their mistakes, while those on the surface that didn't suffer for forgiveness died. But then in one of the lore pieces it's said that this was only a temporary measure until the rot got into the food supply, so that's most likely not the case.

Rather than this, I think it's a fungi, fire-resistant one that just consumes.

Not exactly. As far as we know, the Rot is some kind of mysterious sickness that kills anything living, reducing it to a repulsive black sludge. A fungus doesn't behave in that matter, since fungi have distinct shapes and reproduction methods--in other words, fungus is natural and has clear cause and effects.

 

6 minutes ago, Kosti said:

I actually have a new theory with all mentioned and more read - Between Tobias' Return and Reflection is a time skip, in Return he says in part 5 he will go with his brothers now, in Return it's implied he was in the Lazaret super sick, likely the one carving some of the wall carvings there.

This isn't just implied--Tobias himself confirms it. When you talk to him at the end of Chapter Two, he explains that he contracted the Rot and honored Jonas's pleading requests to go to the Lazaret and hold on to life as best he could. What happened to him after isn't quite clear, other than he wasn't turned into a seraph but not exactly human either, and the Rot-infested parts of him were just gone. He crawled free of the ruins and eventually scratched out a decent living for himself, founding Nadiya and producing the Devastation in his efforts to bring back the player and other allies.

 

10 minutes ago, Kosti said:

So what if Jonas used his machine twice - first time he did it didn't work as intended but he needed to test it's effects, inadvertently sending the rot to the other world from which he took inspiration, leading to his machines getting corrupted, also making the rot closer to him, affecting Tobias, which led to his fastened attempts to fix it and eventually turning it on for the second time, breaking time itself, causing temporal instability and changing the world, also going back in time.

Not really possible considering that the only reason the Grand Machine even exists is that Jonas built it in an effort to save humanity and what was left of the world from the Rot. Setting off the machine cleansed the Rot, at least temporarily, as well as scrambled the world and produced the temporal storms and instability we encounter in the present day. So there's not really a reason to use it twice since it worked the first time...at least, mostly. Tobias also makes a point of mentioning that that kind of experiment decidedly shouldn't be attempted again, even if it were possible.

 

13 minutes ago, Kosti said:

But now the rot corrupted the other world, which on top of all was starting to peek into ours with rifts, the humans that got sent there likely being consumed by the rot, becoming rot monsters, and then with the other world's properties turning into the metal drifters and shivers, and bowtorn, and all that. Meanwhile Seraphim were likely those that interracted closely with the Prima Materia, giving them some sort of resistance, or perhaps leaving them outside of both places and time too.

All that we really know about the seraphs is that most, at least, were very likely allies of Jonas and involved somehow with his efforts to save the world, and turned/blinked out of existence when the Grand Machine was activated. Likewise, it's heavily implied that the rotbeasts were also some of Jonas's allies, or some of the people he was trying to save, and turned into monstrosities when the Grand Machine was activated.

Regarding Prima Materia itself, it's not yet known what the substance is, aside from some esoteric thing that Jonas discovered and figured out how to use to make all his marvelous contraptions. Likewise, we don't know exactly what the substance is capable of, or what side effects its use has. The tapestry "Dangers of Temporality" hints at this.

18 minutes ago, Kosti said:

It'd be also dissapointing not to at least see him up close, aka remaining a mystery forever.

I would say the opposite. Seeing Dave up close would indeed be interesting...but only the first time. After that, the mystery is gone, and there's not much room left for imagination. If Dave remains in the background though, then the player can easily imagine lots of different things about what he could be, which helps keep Dave interesting over multiple playthroughs.

 

20 minutes ago, Kosti said:

As for the Spoils it is an awful place. Also it seems to have existed from the time before Tobias' tower was constructed, same with the Cardinals, so imo these are mostly likely old dungeons.

As far as I'm aware, there's nothing to suggest that this is the case. They could be ruins from the Old World, but they could also just as easily be ruins from the new world, or new settlements/places that were created after the initial calamity and that have managed to survive the onslaught since.

 

22 minutes ago, Kosti said:

They could absolutely be other ways to find Nadiya as the devs have apparently said they want other paths towards it. But considering how priority-oriented the devs are, I doubt they'd be making secondary lore changes first mission in chapter 3, if anything, announcing chapter 3 likely means they will focus on going further in the lore, rather than making it non-linear. It is true after all you can't make a line without an end point, not to mention multiple.

To my knowledge, the story is supposed to be somewhat linear in how it unfolds, but it's also very possible to vary the order of certain steps or even skip them entirely and still have things make sense. I could see them making some lore changes with the introduction of Chapter Three to introduce more ways to point the player to Nadiya. The Resonance Archive would remain the first mission in this case, but by adding Quiet, the Spoils, or the Cardinals, the treasure hunter's dialogue could simply be changed to include more information about the place and/or an option for the player to ask how to get to such a place(or who to ask for directions to such). The main advantage to this kind of structure is that it gives the player more choice on which place they would like to visit first, as well as the potential to perhaps skip a location entirely if it sounds menacing enough.

 

27 minutes ago, Kosti said:

In any case we aren't getting chapter 3 soon, so I can only speculate.

Depends on how you wish to define "soon". 1.23 was supposed to potentially be the next lore chapter, but as far as I know, 1.23 is supposed to be focusing on reworking the armor system, as well as perhaps adding some smaller things and things that didn't make it into 1.22. Chapter Three is supposed to arrive in 1.24, so maybe sometime late next year, but we'll see. It depends heavily on how much stuff is packed into 1.23, and how many resulting bugs need to be fixed. 

[ifoz]

14 hours ago, LadyWYT said:

Which part of me wonders if perhaps the Rot is a physical manifestation of bad morals, and perhaps progresses faster in those more rife with evil deeds.  It's a bit of a stretch, but if that were the case, it would have some serious implications about certain characters, as well as perhaps explain why the Rot is returning.

This is a really interesting interpretation of the Rot - while I'm not sure that's the direction the devs will take it in, it might help explain why the prison-themed ruins in the game often contain high status clothing, given the descriptions we have of how some of them treated the lower classes. While we know the Lazaret was where those too wealthy or important to simply be let die were taken, some of the other prison-themed ruins (like "mistery_grave" [sic]) also contain high status clothes.
It could also be that while lower status criminals were just directly exiled to the surface, only those with enough influence were kept in the (relative) safety of the underground, though under lock and key.

The following is a bit less about the Rot, but I've been wondering about the high status prisons for a while now;

I also wonder what use the jailors actually were in the underground - their set's description makes it sound like they were torturers, but for what reason I don't know. We know criminals were exiled to the surface because they could spare no manpower, and torturing them seems pointless as it would only reduce their chances to come back with useful supplies in tow.
Perhaps they were used by the Blackguard to extract information about rebels, though there is also no real evidence that connects them to the dread company other than one Blackguard ruin containing a small holding cell.
Oddly enough, "mistery_grave" seems the most like a torture chamber (what with the skulls on spikes and the chains hanging from the cieling), though is filled with discarded high status items - the belongings of nobles, aristocrats and the like.

Exile to the surface also already covers the main reason for torture in the middle ages - a particularly grizzly way to show would-be criminals what would happen if they were to be caught, hopefully deterring them. The exile also has the added benefit of showing offenders just how valuable a position in the shelters was, hopefully making them play nicer if re-integrated.

The one group I could see connections drawn between to the jailors is the Forlorn Hope, due to their identical blue colouring on parts of their sets. However, that same blue is used quite a bit throughout the game - certain Nadiyan sets, the Malefactor's sash and scarf. I think it most likely is supposed to be the deep blue of lapis-dyed cloth, since the tailor in Nadiya will buy lapis from the player.

It could be that there were still factions vying for power in the underground - while Jonas was the main thing humanity banded around, perhaps others with power were still plotting to outlast the Rot on their own terms and re-establish their own empires afterwards. The nomad set does mention a khanate, though we don't know if that was specifically around underground or not.

Edited Tuesday at 04:16 AM by ifoz

[LadyWYT]

10 hours ago, ifoz said:

It could be that there were still factions vying for power in the underground - while Jonas was the main thing humanity banded around, perhaps others with power were still plotting to outlast the Rot on their own terms and re-establish their own empires afterwards. The nomad set does mention a khanate, though we don't know if that was specifically around underground or not.

I daresay this is the simplest explanation. Desperate rebels aside, I'm sure some allies of Jonas were really just allies in name only, cooperating because they didn't really have any other choice. Political jockeying and intrigue is also endemic to nobility, so even if some of them did actually mean well, old habits rarely disappear overnight. Whether any survived long enough to carve out their own kingdom after, I'm not sure, but that could at least be part of the reason that Tobias gave such stark warnings about expansion to the Nadiyans. He is a practical sort, yes, but he's also seen the ugly side of nobility, so it's entirely possible that he deliberately stifled their ambitions to prevent any sort of kingdom from growing out of the village. Which is understandable in some ways, but also rather selfish and a bit dastardly, when you think about it. 

The khanate, I suspect, is just a reference to the steppe people's system of governing, or more specifically, what was left of the Mongol Empire. By the 1200s, it had started to fall apart, and finished breaking apart in the late 1300s/early 1400s, which is when the story takes place.

10 hours ago, ifoz said:

I also wonder what use the jailors actually were in the underground - their set's description makes it sound like they were torturers, but for what reason I don't know. We know criminals were exiled to the surface because they could spare no manpower, and torturing them seems pointless as it would only reduce their chances to come back with useful supplies in tow.
Perhaps they were used by the Blackguard to extract information about rebels, though there is also no real evidence that connects them to the dread company other than one Blackguard ruin containing a small holding cell.
Oddly enough, "mistery_grave" seems the most like a torture chamber (what with the skulls on spikes and the chains hanging from the cieling), though is filled with discarded high status items - the belongings of nobles, aristocrats and the like.

Given that torture was not uncommon at all for prisons back then, it was probably just how they punished criminals or otherwise a gruesome method of keeping control of the populace. Frightened people are easier to control, yes, but desperation also makes people extremely unpredictable. I wouldn't be surprised if the Blackguards were torturing people for information, or otherwise making a brutal example out of rebels in order to ensure that the rest of the people did as told. It's definitely not a pleasant way to handle things, but if everyone is scared into submission that's more people working and less people potentially rebelling, getting killed, or otherwise derailing work.

Regarding the nobles, it's very possible that they would be more inclined towards rebellion, since they tend to think of themselves as "betters" and would probably want special treatment(that they might not otherwise be getting). But we've also seen characters like Tobias who are implied to have grudges against the nobility. Now I'm not saying Tobias would want to torture them, or that he would have had a hand in any of it, but I do think it's possible that some bitter commoners might have imprisoned nobles and tortured them to death as a result of deep hatred.