Realistic alloys and metallurgy

[Moonmonk]

Well I know its not something common in most games as people have messed this up forever as far as I know but real bronze is leagues better than iron. Iron is practically useless and super soft like copper. It also falls apart in a short time with rust while bronze tools and weapons last even longer than steel historically. Bronze only really fell out of favor because of the dark ages saw the world broken into much smaller pieces with the fall of Rome etc. Bronze is really only outdone by steel in latter centuries. Even the best naturally occurring meteoric iron alloys with nickel would probably only be comparable to tin bronze in durability. I know the game is already balancing around the progression from copper to iron etc. but its actually not accurate or realistic. Iron really became popular because its practically everywhere and while copper isn't ultra rare having it and tin mines available to a nation was the stuff that made ancient powers. Bronze was often so precious for tools and warfare that it was taken during conquest to be reforged into whatever the victors needed. The relative scarcity of the ore meant that for a lot of ancient history the tools weapons etc. were highly valued like heirlooms.

Just wondering why iron has so high durability when it doesn't make any sense, I've seen iron forged swords even mild steel and they are shit for durability getting easily dinged up and the other alternative is something extremely brittle like cast iron which is hard but useless for most purposes outside cookware.

[Erik]

The bronze age collapse caused iron to be used more widespread, not the fall of the western roman empire. You also undersell wrought iron quite a bit. When looking at hardness tin bronze has the upper hand compared to wrought iron, but wrought iron is still significantly harder than copper. Furthermore, wrought iron is also lighter and more malleable, which makes it more desirable as a sword and much more repairable. An iron sword might bend but a bronze sword might break. Iron can also be more effectively hardened and tempered, making it a much more flexible material and being able to surpass tin bronze in keeping an edge that way.

In terms of gamedesign, the suggestion would also not really work all that well imo. Making copper more rare for realism purposes seems like a really bad idea for progression, as when it would then remain the starter metal, it would be frustrating. When making iron the starter metal instead, it will be much harder for the player to get some starting metal tools and stone anvils and hammers need to be introduced. The player is then likely to skip bronze, since the gains wouldn't be all that significant and getting steel would probably be more efficient, since there would be no reason for steel to be gated behind bronze. Keeping copper common and the starter metal and being able to make iron with just copper tools/anvils also makes bronce kinda obsolete for the same reasons, it would also be degradated to an optional metal. The copper -> bronze -> iron -> steel progression is simply better, because bronze is a natural step from copper, as is steel from iron, crafting processes increasing in complexity with progression and material strength. It also mimics the historical progression which I would count as an advantage.

[redram]

Ya, as Erik says.  It's one of the most gamey of the 'realism' parts of the game.  But it just works better progression-wise.  Quite a few gamey copper and bronze tools in there as well - not to mention the anvils - but for purposes of legibility to players that aren't well versed in actual bronze age and such, it's felt that it just makes for a generally more coherent progression.  There's also the age-old issue that historically, the knowledge of these various steps took centuries, but in game the player already knows all the stuff.  There was nothing that really kept ancient man from making steel, except his lack of knowledge.  To try to give a similar progression in game, we kind of have to make some road blocks and mechanics that aren't strictly realistic.  But make for better progression.