Mechanical Power Sources & Line Shafts

[tony Liberatto]

 It's 2018. Our technology has evolved a lot since the Dark Ages. But alas even with robotics we do not have a completely automated Farm. A system that is able to prep the soil, plant, harvest and process the fruits and vegetables. Yes, I have seen videos with machines and robots doing all sort of things, but if you actually go to California, what you will see, is the whole bunch of workers hand picking Tomatoes.

Any mechanical power that includes automated hoppers and chests capable of receiving the items from those hoppers is Magic. Oh, yeah, we do know how to do it nowadays. We are able to select items in a convey belt by size, shape, colour and even barcode. But it should be outside of this game.

Mechanical Power should exist to enable the player to create items and blocks faster, so he is free to spend more time and has the resources to build better and bigger structures.

With a scythe, the player is capable of harvesting 9 crops at a time. Why would you ever need to automate that process? How does that fit into the time frame of the Game, that is supposed to be Medieval Times?

There is a huge difference between Mechanical Power and full automation. Even using Huge machines and tractors there is no self-sufficient system in operation on the whole world. They all need some kind of supervision, there is some technicians making sure everything works as it is supposed to work. 

The idea that I can just make a whole bunch of chests and connect them to a big contraption that will farm the land and replant in an infinite cycle is absurd in this game. I really hope the devs do not invest their time in such a manner.

As far as clay moulding, I do not believe we need a machine for that. Right now we have 2 items that I would like to be able to make faster the bowl and the ingot mold. For that my idea of just using a reverse form works just fine without the need for any kind of machine. 

For an ingot mold. Just place an ingot on top of a surface, now get clay in your hand and right click the ingot. The clay will cover the ingot, click again and you will have an ingot mold. No fuss needed. Anyone can understand what is going on, is completely believable, because that's exactly how you would do it in real life. For the bowl, you would need first to create something that has the size and dimensions of the inside of the bowl. It could even be made of stone, but for game balance, we could have it requiring metal or even Iron.

As far as a minecart lets make something very clear. Miners used minecarts to move ores because it was heavy, but unless the cart was going down, they had to push the cart themselves, or use animals to pull it.

So, Minecarts Yes. Minecarts that magically move by themselves, No.

As an End Game possibility I would not be opposed to the player to be able to create a Steam Wagon that could pull, or push a Cart, but not infinite power, it should consume charcoal and water.

I think the main thing for me is YES TO MECHANICAL POWER, but please, pretty please, NO HOPPER AND NO ITEM PIPES AND NO AUTOMATIC CHESTS. NO MAGIC.

 

 

 

[redram]

Ya it's definitely true that there's a difference between 'automation' that just reduces the amount of fiddly grindy work, and spreading out material amongst processors (8-firepit chalk baking operation), and then 'Automation' that allows a process to go from beginning to end, raw material to finished product, over many varied steps, with no need of player input.

What if the process were approached more bottom-up, rather than trying to bite off the entire thing at once?  So like, pre-iron age.  What's the player going to be doing pre-iron age?  Cooking, grinding grain (and maybe other things), making charcoal, making clay items, making leather, maybe a stamp mill for pulverizing ore and stone?   What are the best candidates for automation out of those?  Grinding I think is an obvious one, though then the question kind of becomes are there separate manual and powered grinding devices?   I'd say a stamp mill should require powered from a windmill or water wheel to operate at all.  

Then there's the question of convenience stuff, like doors and gates that open and close just via the player walking over a pressure plate or something.  It's not really a thing I can think of any rl example of, but in a game context it's a large convenience item so I think it's worth having.   In minecraft they just had a pressure plate next to a door, and that was enough.  You didn't have to construct any linkages of any kind.  Which I think is probably fine - there's no space between so any mechanism would have to be below basically, but you need floor to walk on.  But, maybe the player has to take a normal door, and right click on it with some rope and/or pulleys.  That makes it a door that accepts signals.  This may or may not change the graphic of the door.   

But now maybe the player wants to have trapdoors at certain areas where drifters gather, and they can trigger the trapdoors with a switch (so that they don't have gaping pit traps to accidentally fall into).  How to link those items?  What if pulleys were a placeable item, that you could connect with rope?  So you could use them to change direction, and connect the lever/button and trapdoor at a distance.  Basically you have a remote linkage system that only accepts impulses, not continuous power?  It leaves a question of what if you need to go through a wall or something.  Some sort of low-tech 'mechanism' block?  Maybe a grate which items and rope linkages (and water?) can go through, but not entities? I think you'd need something that prevents locusts and such from getting through.  There's also a sort of 'polishing detail' question of, if the pulley is the end point that transmits the signal to the door or whatever,  will there also be a short bit of rope from the pulley to the target item?

And the, can the player use pulleys and ropes to make a tripwire?  So a drifter triggers the tripwire, opening trapdoors beneath him?  When he hits the bottom he lands on a trigger plate that resets the trapdoors?  The player simply jumps the wire to avoid?  Or is there another primitive mechanism that can be used to deactivate the system somehow?   I don't want to trivialize mob threats, but at the same time, I think a lot of people agree that drifters around your base are more annoyance than anything.

[tony Liberatto]

For doors and gates In Real life, I have seen a system with a rope and weight to keep a door closed. So you still have to manually open the door, but it will close by itself. Another thing very common nowadays is springs. They could be installed over the hinge and would keep a door or gate closed. The rope and pulley with a weight is a simple way for the player to keep a door or gate closed, but it has the disadvantage of using some room behind and to the side of the door. The Hinge Spring could be done in a way so the player can only make it in the iron age, but it would replace the door or gate with a new texture showing the hinge and spring, The main difference is that it would close by itself. I really do not need my doors to automagically open for me. As long as I have a way to keep them close so no mobs come in the base I would be happy.

As far as uses for the mechanical power, we just have to think what did people use them in middle ages.

We should start by creating simple manual utensils and making them necessary.

If the player cannot eat grain, unless is ground and made into bread, he will have the need to make a log Pestle or stump Mortar to be able to grind. 

But that is time-consuming, uses energy and stamina. Much better if I could use someone else energy, Like wind, water or animal.

 

Another example. when working with metals, what if the player had to crush the ore, wash it and only them smelt it.

We can have ways for the player to do it manually, but later we can have a crusher and a system with water to wash the ore. 

 

What if when mining the player would get the rock block with the ore inside. It is very heavy and it would not go into the player inventory, but only into a wood box or barrel that the player carries in his back. The player will need to process this ore latter on, but for now, he needs to get it out of the mine. Ores are so heavy, the player cannot go up any stairs or jump a block up. 

Now, there is a reason to create a system with ropes and pulleys to get the ore to the surface, If mines are big enough or we change how much each block yields, so they give more metal per block, but at the same time it takes longer to work each block. We could have a reason to use a minecart, Only there is no way the player can push the cart Up, out of the mine. He needs a strong animal for that.

 

What if the player was unable to move water sources, suddenly we have a use for a water pump, that could be connected to a windmill.  It would make possible for the player to make his farm bigger with irrigation, and go a bit farther from the river or lake. A system of aqueducts or simple pipes would move water to inside the player base, for cooking and drinking.

I can keep going on with ideas that are realistic, believable and add content to the game.

What we do not need, is a contraption that will automatically shop down trees, collect the sticks and sapling and replant the trees, all without any effort from the player. 

[Stroam]

Anything tedious that I don't want to do I would rather trade for than automate. I am all for mechanical stuff but not for automation. I would like it for dungeon design. Traps, triggers, moving blocks. A tripwire that results in arrows being released. Pressure plate that triggers the ceiling to collapse and drop sand on you. A false floor that gives away to drop you into lava. Indiana Jones stuff.

Maybe something neat like a massive door opening with a counter weight and chains. Hidden rooms with book triggers that reveal a hidden staircase. Rotating walls. Doors that don't look like doors.

One of the most fun I had with redstone was an awesome thrown room decked out with precious materials and to get to it you had to go through an underground City with traps all over and then push a series of buttons and pressure plates in the right order which would reveal holes you had to drop the right item in that if you completed in the time limit would open one of three passages into the throne room for a limited amount of time. You didn't get enough time to check two so you just had to guess right. Unfortunately I went back a month later and someone had just mined through the entrance of one of the hidden passage. Probably as soon as the town protection expired.

[tony Liberatto]

1 hour ago, Stroam said:

Anything tedious that I don't want to do I would rather trade for than automate. I am all for mechanical stuff but not for automation. I would like it for dungeon design. Traps, triggers, moving blocks. A tripwire that results in arrows being released. Pressure plate that triggers the ceiling to collapse and drop sand on you. A false floor that gives away to drop you into lava. Indiana Jones stuff.

 

2

I like that, I have played some adventure maps that were a lot of fun.

Maybe we could have a feature of the game dedicated to Map creators,  with all those tools and the ability to specify blocks that can or not be broken. Some people can create amazing maps.

I just do not see the need for that in survival. I mean, why would I ever need a tripwire in my game right now? 

Even if we had special Ruins with all those traps, people would just break from the sides, instead, of trying to disarm the traps.

But, yeah, I loved those adventures.

[Erik]

13 hours ago, Stroam said:

Anything tedious that I don't want to do I would rather trade for than automate. I am all for mechanical stuff but not for automation.

I politely disagree with your and Tony's opinion on automation. For me and probably many other players, engineering has been an important part in Minecraft and VS should also improve on it, rather than remove it. The ability to automate things is really important to give reason to engineering. I don't want VS to become a game where engineering and automation is necessary, but where it is possible. Realism or believability are obviously very important things for you and many other players, but they are very different: Realism is the mirroring of the real world while believability is consistency of a world. It's not realistic that trees are blocky in VS, but it's very believable in the context of a blocky world. When players can destroy blocks with ease, why should other things, like machines, not also be able to do so? When a single player can build a huge castle in VS, on his own, why shouldn't he also able to build an automatic farm?

For me personally, automation is necessary to keep me interested in the game. When I finished the tech tree, I usually get bored because I'm not that big of a builder. But if I have the ability to automate things, I usually strive for building self sustaining systems, which are very difficult to build and keep me interested for a lot of time.

[tony Liberatto]

I think, is like we are having an out of sync conversation here.

@Erik, you talk about engineering and how much you like to build complex systems, even though you need to admit, that no one eats so much chicken to justify those automated chicken farms.

When I talk bad about full automation, I am not talking about not having engineering systems.

I am just talking about not having closed systems. Machines and contraptions that are in essence self-powered and infinitely produce without player intervention.

The kind of mechanical power that I and others propose, should be as much exciting as to build those you mention. 

As part of a Mechanical Power System we would have:

1. Shafts,
2. Ropes,
3. Pollies,
4. Gears,
5. Levers,
6. Tracks,
7. Weights,
8. Supports,
9. Beams,
10. Belts,
11. So many others I cant name right now.

As far as what kind of structure we are talking about, the main difference is that any machine should require a player input and player collection.

Systems that the player could create include:

1. A mine elevator to bring ores to the surface.
2. An ore crusher and washer to process raw ore before they can be smelted.
3. An aqueduct, to transport water to where is needed or convenient.
4. Tracks and Minecarts again to bring ore to the surface, or quick transportation for short distances.
5. Water pump systems to irrigate crops.
6. Lumber Mill to cut down logs into planks.

Using all the materials and items included in those systems the player could potentially create many other things, limited only by his/her imagination. 

Once you are able to move blocks using the mechanical power you could, for example, create drawbridges, just for your amazement. Also, Rotating Lighthouses, that a personal favourite.

So many other buildings and contraptions, but I do not see the need for full automation. I want things that have a need and a use from the logic of the game.

In my mind, I envision the Game as a new universe, is a cube dimension, but it should still obey some simple laws. 

So there you have, you like to build complex systems you will be able to do it. but they will require player interaction. No system that is able to prep the soil, take seeds from a chest, plant them, water the crop, harvest, separate the food from the seeds, and replant "ad infitum". That is not needed nor desirable.