A Proposal for a new fight system

[Hanzibar]

A Proposal for a new fight system

making the mechanics more interesting

Why?

In the current system, fights are decided by clicking the left mouse button as fast as possible and by aiming directly at the enemy. Mob to player hits are very often inconsistent and can cause frustration. There is no way to force an enemy back and give you a slight advantage (see Minecraft’s knock back system). These are the main reasons for a new system being a necessity.

How?

It is important to note that every system can be turned off or fine-tuned by the user. Let us see how the problems mentioned could be ironed out.

By pressing the left mouse button and dragging it across the enemy, a harmful swing is made by the sword on your defined path. Deflections might be made by the enemy doing the same but in the other direction and pressing the right mouse button.

Armor must significantly decrease the chance of a lethal hit. If a defense and the corresponding armor piece fails then the aimed body part is damaged. The following apply:

• Head: instant death, no question

• Body: severe damage

• Arms: losing the ability to handle the sword

• Legs: losing the ability to move or movement being significantly slower

Bleeding out is also a possibility after getting wounded so carrying bandage is highly recommended. Also, inaccuracy can be applied to the hits with it’s intensity depending on fatigue.

Arrows must be deflected with shields and can impose a great amount of damage.

[Astrayo]

I think I remember a game on PS3 which was a parody of Little Red Riding Hood and similar stories that had a similar sort of free-form slashing mechanic. I remember liking it because of that, I think a slashing mechanic like that could be very fun and make combat a lot more dynamic, especially if certain enemies are able to block it. It would also be nice if enemies could attack in a similar fashion, making it possible for skilled players to block/parry certain attacks. Might also be fun in PvP, as players could more dynamically attack each other as well as block each others attacks. Would very likely make combat much more fun and dynamic across the board.

A system for limb health/damage and negative effects caused by low limb health definitely seems like an interesting idea, though losing the ability to move or completely losing the ability to attack seems like something that'd be too harsh and make the system unfun. But dying instantly if the head is too damaged seems interesting, and would definitely give emphasis on protecting the head.

[Hanzibar]

6 hours ago, Glitch said:

I think I remember a game on PS3 which was a parody of Little Red Riding Hood and similar stories that had a similar sort of free-form slashing mechanic. I remember liking it because of that, I think a slashing mechanic like that could be very fun and make combat a lot more dynamic, especially if certain enemies are able to block it. It would also be nice if enemies could attack in a similar fashion, making it possible for skilled players to block/parry certain attacks. Might also be fun in PvP, as players could more dynamically attack each other as well as block each others attacks. Would very likely make combat much more fun and dynamic across the board.

A system for limb health/damage and negative effects caused by low limb health definitely seems like an interesting idea, though losing the ability to move or completely losing the ability to attack seems like something that'd be too harsh and make the system unfun. But dying instantly if the head is too damaged seems interesting, and would definitely give emphasis on protecting the head.

Thank you for your insights. It is indeed possible that arm and leg damage consequences are too heavy.

As for mob attacks, they could dodge instead of deflecting hits, so it would be easier for a player to kill large amounts of them but being still challenging.

[Erik]

On 6/16/2021 at 7:14 PM, Hanzibar said:

By pressing the left mouse button and dragging it across the enemy, a harmful swing is made by the sword on your defined path. Deflections might be made by the enemy doing the same but in the other direction and pressing the right mouse button.

I think a free-form attack system might be way too difficult to implement in a non-glitchy way that works for multiplayer. To make the third person animations for it work is not an easy feat and to make them readable for an opponent is really difficult. When the sword is simulated to have proper collisions there is also a severe performance and network impact. Games that focus on melee combat like Chivalry and Mordhau have struggled with animation glitches and readability, even though they are much less free-form than the proposed system might be.

I think a much better way to implement it would be to make it limited to 4 different attack directions instead of having it free-form and instead of simulating the sword and having proper collisions, the collision should remain being calculated once for the attack at a fixed moment during the animation. Much easier to implement and much more readable to the player, less possible glitches.

That would however possibly make locational damage too precise for the player to aim, although even with a free-form system it might be too unprecise. Or it might be too trivial to always hit the head or other targeted body part. I'd probably leave it chance dependent like it is now, but have the different attack directions have different chances for hitting different bodyparts, so players at least have some ability to aim at specific weak points, while that would as a positive side effect also make it easier to predict which way they will attack and thus easier to block. Instead of special effects for different body regions, the only difference should imo be armor. That prevents players from always focusing on a specific limb and makes it more adaptive based on the enemy armor.

[l33tmaan]

Just take Morrowind's combat and remove the random damage and to-hit chance.

[Painini]

I personally don't like the idea of specific body parts being damaged and needing repair. I think doing so would give the devs the option of either being able to heal it easily with existing healing items, which invalidates the system. Other side of the coin is that repairs either take a lot of time or a lot of resources, which would just be frustrating. 

I think the current combat system works fine, and if they wanted to spruce it up a bit they could:

Add proper knock-back

make enemy attacks easier to predict, but impose more damage should they hit

A parry system, a successful parry could temporarily stun the attacking monster. This ties in with predictable enemy attacks.

Make attacking less of a spamfest by introducing a low damage, quick thrust and a charged swing attack.

These changes would add more excitement and creativity to enemy encounters, where players would have to use skill and wit to beat enemies. (I just hope to god they dont give enemies the ability to parry too)

 

[Michaloid]

3 hours ago, Tim L said:

I personally don't like the idea of specific body parts being damaged and needing repair. I think doing so would give the devs the option of either being able to heal it easily with existing healing items, which invalidates the system. Other side of the coin is that repairs either take a lot of time or a lot of resources, which would just be frustrating. 

I think the current combat system works fine, and if they wanted to spruce it up a bit they could:

Add proper knock-back

make enemy attacks easier to predict, but impose more damage should they hit

I agree with all of these, the Knock-back especialy since it's easier and less frustrating, that's why minecraft system works. Imagine if you had to fight a creeper or a zombie without knock-back, it would be frustrating as hell right? Same thing applies here.

3 hours ago, Tim L said:

A parry system, a successful parry could temporarily stun the attacking monster. This ties in with predictable enemy attacks.

This one, i kinda like but i think it would be hard to implement onto a game like this.

3 hours ago, Tim L said:

Make attacking less of a spamfest by introducing a low damage, quick thrust and a charged swing attack.

This one could be optional, but it works on minecraft and i think it would work here too.

[Painini]

35 minutes ago, Michaloid said:

I agree with all of these, the Knock-back especialy since it's easier and less frustrating, that's why minecraft system works. Imagine if you had to fight a creeper or a zombie without knock-back, it would be frustrating as hell right? Same thing applies here.

This one, i kinda like but i think it would be hard to implement onto a game like this.

This one could be optional, but it works on minecraft and i think it would work here too.

True, and while writing all of this I honestly only factored in pve combat. I doubt a lot of this would work in pvp haha.

Knockback and different attacks are what I wish for most

[Erik]

8 hours ago, Michaloid said:

This one, i kinda like but i think it would be hard to implement onto a game like this.

FYI, it would not be hard to implement something like a parry, in fact it would be easier than a knock-back system.

11 hours ago, Tim L said:

I think the current combat system works fine, and if they wanted to spruce it up a bit they could:

Add proper knock-back

make enemy attacks easier to predict, but impose more damage should they hit

A parry system, a successful parry could temporarily stun the attacking monster. This ties in with predictable enemy attacks.

Make attacking less of a spamfest by introducing a low damage, quick thrust and a charged swing attack.

These changes would add more excitement and creativity to enemy encounters, where players would have to use skill and wit to beat enemies. (I just hope to god they dont give enemies the ability to parry too)

 

I don't think the current combat is fine, it is the least fun part of the whole game. And I feel like copying Minecraft won't help either, since that games combat system is also very controversial for a lot of people. Knock-back on the scale of Minecraft would make the game too goofy, too easy. Knock-back only ever really worked for Minecraft before sprinting, afterwards the game turned into a short range movement shooter where the player frantically runs around trying to hit things, since the running plus the knock-back would make it effortless to keep alive, which is definitely not a direction VS should take.

The most important thing the game needs is an attack animation for the sword, like the spear currently already has. The combat range also needs to be tuned down imo. Everything currently hits a meter further than it should, making judging distances near impossible.

Another huge problem is the enemy behavior: Best case they directly walk at you and attack. Worst case they either jump at you at 100km/h from a kilometer away and still hit you while they are two meters away from you (wolves) or they try to walk up to you and maybe decide to attack in rare cases, where they will then just wave at you, while you can get out of their range, because they don't move during attack, except turning around instantly when you are close enough to them, even though you were behind them (difters), also hitting you from a meter further than they should.

Getting enemy AI and behaviors in a good state is certainly not an easy task, but a critical one. I feel like collision based attacks for animals and better (cone based) hit detection for drifters is a must, as well as improving enemy movement. Some behavior where enemies circle around the player instead of running directly at him is critical. Some basic enemy group coordination is also critical. Imagine instead of wolves directly running at the player, they would try to sneak up on him, preferably in groups, would fight by circling around the player, prefering attacking when behind them, maybe faking an attack from the front, so another wolf can safely attack from behind.

[Painini]

1 minute ago, Erik said:

FYI, it would not be hard to implement something like a parry, in fact it would be easier than a knock-back system.

I don't think the current combat is fine, it is the least fun part of the whole game. And I feel like copying Minecraft won't help either, since that games combat system is also very controversial for a lot of people. Knock-back on the scale of Minecraft would make the game too goofy, too easy. Knock-back only ever really worked for Minecraft before sprinting, afterwards the game turned into a short range movement shooter where the player frantically runs around trying to hit things, since the running plus the knock-back would make it effortless to keep alive, which is definitely not a direction VS should take.

The most important thing the game needs is an attack animation for the sword, like the spear currently already has. The combat range also needs to be tuned down imo. Everything currently hits a meter further than it should, making judging distances near impossible.

Another huge problem is the enemy behavior: Best case they directly walk at you and attack. Worst case they either jump at you at 100km/h from a kilometer away and still hit you while they are two meters away from you (wolves) or they try to walk up to you and maybe decide to attack in rare cases, where they will then just wave at you, while you can get out of their range, because they don't move during attack, except turning around instantly when you are close enough to them, even though you were behind them (difters), also hitting you from a meter further than they should.

Getting enemy AI and behaviors in a good state is certainly not an easy task, but a critical one. I feel like collision based attacks for animals and better (cone based) hit detection for drifters is a must, as well as improving enemy movement. Some behavior where enemies circle around the player instead of running directly at him is critical. Some basic enemy group coordination is also critical. Imagine instead of wolves directly running at the player, they would try to sneak up on him, preferably in groups, would fight by circling around the player, prefering attacking when behind them, maybe faking an attack from the front, so another wolf can safely attack from behind.

Very good points, I agree with pretty much all of what you say

[RobinHood]

I have an idea for the mentioned Zombi, what about, that you need kill a zombie twice. Fist with your weapon, but If you don't burn him with fire, he will come back. A zombie you need killd two times, first by weapon, within in a small time window with fire again.

Edited June 24, 2021 by RobinHood

[Game Nerd]

I would LOVE a PvP server, PvP needs to change, you could just try to copy hytale, as everybody wants to try it and more hytale fans might buy this, find this easer is combat is inspired by hytale. then you could put your own spin on it as hytale not ironed out yet, (and might not ever be). You can leave out the animations as it wouldn't fit well. you might want to assign keys to do all the different attacks. If we are to do the swinging with the sord, then the Camra must be very stable. I'm REALLY coureous what is going to come out in the next update, I hope it's PvP.

[Game Nerd]

*only for PvP

I thin a knockback system works great, taking out spam,

low damaged weapons while having some benefits would only work with a span system, as without, it's a show of greater weapon strength.

Stunning would not work out great, as the stunned player would watch then take the lead on the fight.

Different attacks like hytale would add more tactics to it and make it better

blood would work out well, just as long as players notice it (unlock world of war ships) and plenty of things can stop it.

• Head: little more damage
  is the best way to add body parts it it, as it adds some realism, but doesn't change much
  hope to see it in the next update!